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Post COP28: Where does individual climate action go from here?

Welcome back to UCL Generation One: The Climate Podcast. Introducing episode 5 of season four.

What are individuals doing to fight climate change and how important is the role of local activism?

This episode focuses on individual climate action, with our guests chatting to our hosts about the role of activism in initiating change.

Featuring Louise Harris (songwriter and Just Stop Oil activist), Versha Jones, (Climate Reality Project - Volunteer National Coordinator, UK) Annabel Rice (Political Advisor at the Green Alliance) and Kris de Meyer (Senior Research Fellow in Climate Communications University College London, Dept of Earth Sciences).

Views expressed by our guests are their own.

Transcript

UCL Minds  0:02 

We are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation that can do something about it.

Louise Harris  0:10 

Yeah, I've been, you know, arrested multiple times, I was sent to prison on remand. Now I have a suspended sentence. So if I were to get convicted of anything, I'd be in prison for quite a while.

Versha Jones  0:22 

This is the UK. So we are suffering from climate change right now.

Annabel Rice  0:29 

I feel really sad that we've got to a space in the media where a young person expressing their passion about an issue can be so villainized.

Mark Maslin  0:41 

This is Generation One from University College London, turning climate science and ideas into action.

Hi, I'm Mark Maslin. And I'm a professor of Earth System Science, which by now you should all know means that I study climate change in the past, the present and the future.

Simon Chin-Yee  1:04 

And I'm Simon Chin-Yee, and I'm in the Political Sciences department. And I'm focused on decarbonizing the shipping sector, creating links between countries regionally and globally.

Mark Maslin  1:13 

Simon, you had a great week, because unfortunately, I couldn't make it to this event. But you went to the Climate Cuppa event. What happened?

Simon Chin-Yee  1:22 

Yeah, that was great Mark. Yeah, it was really inspiring. This is the second time they've held a Cuppa like this, but this was because International Women's Day is actually today. And so they had a gathering of climate experts and scientists across UCL to listen and talk and share their thoughts on climate action.

Mark Maslin  1:43 

For what it’s worth, I think that UCL is one of those amazing places where we have such incredible female intellectuals who are really working at the cutting edge of the climate crisis.

Simon Chin-Yee  1:57 

Yeah, I think that's great. And I think similar to the fact that you can hear that my voice is strained right now, this is why a lot of these climate activists are out there. They're shouting, they're screaming from the rooftops, young people from all over the country. I remember when I was in Sheffield, a few years back, being at their town hall on a Friday for a Friday for Futures movement. And it just was so inspiring to see these students talk so eloquently to a crowd of strangers as well as their peers, and they were no more than 12 or 14 years old.

Mark Maslin  2:27 

I really wish I had their energy. I really wish I had their immune system, because it's very clear from your voice that you and I, we’re getting to that age where we're burning the candle at each ends. We're trying to do the best we can to actually deal with the climate crisis. We're trying to encourage people to be part of this whole debate. We're trying to publicise how brilliant UCL is. And do you know what, it's taking the toll!

Simon Chin-Yee  2:53 

And I know we're joking here. But actually, it's true that the health crisis and the climate crisis are one and the same thing at the moment, you have to think about all of these different health implications when we're thinking about the climate challenge.

Mark Maslin  3:08 

And I think this episode is gonna be really exciting because we also have some of the young female activists who are really driving the agenda of change in this country, including people like Louise Harris, who launched her single just before Christmas. Which really, I have to say I keep listening to it, and it so resonates with me and it really makes people understand the climate crisis. Here's a clip.

<‘We Tried’ by Louise Harris>

Simon Chin-Yee  4:11 

That was Louise Harris from Just Stop Oil, and her latest single ‘We Tried’. So we asked Louise to explain a bit about what her latest single is trying to achieve, as well as her work with Just Stop Oil.

Louise Harris  4:24 

It really resonated with the kind of climate activist community, anyone who's really climate concerned. I think, a lot of people who've been trying so long to make change, felt heard by the song. You know, anyone who suffers kind of from climate grief, anxiety, I think they resonated with that song. But you know, some people have told me that they've been sharing it with people who are less involved, you know, in the climate movement, and they are still being touched by it somewhat. So I think it is, you know, I think the power of art and particularly music is to get people to really emotionally connect with themselves, how they feel about certain things. I think that's where the power lies.

Simon Chin-Yee  5:04 

So I asked Louise apart from her music, what other areas of activism is she involved in?

Louise Harris  5:09 

I've taken nonviolent direct action multiple times with Just Stop Oil, mainly. So demanding no new oil and gas licences from the UK Government. So yeah, I've been, you know, arrested multiple times, I was sent to prison on remand, etc. Now I have a suspended sentence. So if I were to get convicted of anything, you know, I'd be in prison for quite a while. So I feel like that's not the best use of my resources. My energy now, it's to kind of try and, I guess, mass mobilise people into collective climate action, whether that's actually taking direct action themselves or volunteering behind the scenes, donating, but trying to get a mass movement.

Mark Maslin  5:50 

Finally, we asked Louise whether there is a more extremist appetite among some to take climate activism further, and where she sees things going in terms of protests.

Louise Harris  6:02 

What I would say is that, you know, if there is no action from governments, and we kind of slide into more climate breakdown, more societal collapse, I think violence will be inevitable, like an inevitable consequence. Not from activists necessarily, but just from the general public because you know, when there's not enough food and water, what are you going to do. So our aim is to try and prevent that happening.

Simon Chin-Yee  6:28 

That was Louise Harris from Just Stop Oil, talking about her activism and her latest single ‘We Tried’. Give it a listen on YouTube, you'll find the link in our show notes. Now we're going to move on to our next guest: Versha Jones, a UK Volunteer Coordinator for the Climate Reality Project. The Climate Reality Project is a nonprofit organisation founded by Al Gore to catalyse a global solution to the climate crisis through urgent action. First, she told us more about the project, and specifically her work on the Isles of Scilly.

Versha Jones  6:59 

So a couple of years ago, I made a trip to the Isles of Scilly, and I was met with turquoise sea, white sandy beaches, palm trees. And by the time I'd left, I had seen puffins, I had been island hopping. I had walked along my local beach every morning and I had a wonderful time. But when I left, I glanced back and of course these islands are totally flat. So my Climate Reality training is ringing in my ears, warnings of warming oceans causing harsher storms, images of coastal flooding, and of course, you know, the odds of Scilly being an island nation. Of course, not in the South Pacific, but in the UK. I panicked. So when I got back to my desk on Monday morning, instead of getting on with my work, which is totally unrelated to climate change, I emailed the Isles of Scilly council, and to my amazement, a councillor and the Head of Environment agreed to meet me on Zoom.

Mark Maslin  8:04 

We asked Versha to describe the worst-case scenario in terms of the Scilly Isles.

Versha Jones  8:10 

Their resilience is being tested more and more every single year. They are suffering from coastal erosion. They're getting rock armour put around their coastlines. Their fresh water supplies are at risk. They can't afford desalination tech, their infrastructure, their main infrastructure of freight ships that bring emergency supplies, pharmaceuticals: that's a boat on choppier waters every year because of climate change, there’s more storms, there’s more fog. Every winter, these boats are getting cancelled much more frequently. There's a sandspit. There's an isthmus on the main island, which, unfortunately for Isles of Scilly, the harbour for these freight ships is on the bit that's going to fall off into the sea. Now, you know, this is quite major for them, this is their supply chain to the rest of the UK to, you know, to all of the things they need to survive on. They rely on these boats. You know, they’re harvesting rainwater. And you wouldn’t – this is the UK. So we are suffering from climate change right now. We're quite pedestrian compared to Just Stop Oil. We are not throwing cans of soup. We share the same discontent. And our groups, all of these organisations are different. Because I think that's where the change makers are, the real change makers that are shifting the narrative now. Scientists, I know, I apologise, and academics, I apologise. Yeah, when you leave the room, those problems are still there because people are going to think about them. We don't have time to think about these problems. The next five years are crucial.

Mark Maslin  9:54 

That was Versha Jones, the Volunteer Coordinator of the Climate Reality Project. We also heard from Annabel Rice. She's the political advisor at the Green Alliance, and she shared some thoughts with us on youth involvement within climate politics and notably, at the COP meetings.

Annabel Rice  10:14 

Young people are vocal like, boy, are they vocal and they absolutely should be. But I don't think it's listened to in the way that it should be. And I think that's a completely different story. There's so many different elements that go into having youth participation. And the first is being in the room, which, you know, we're getting there in some cases, but it's not always institutionalised. So a lot of the time it's down to the presidency of the day, who or whichever country that may be, it's at their discretion, how many young people they want to invite and whether or not they want to fund those places. So yeah, it's really difficult to be heard and be in spaces where decisions happen. I was saying earlier, I think young people often hear said, you know, “you're so inspirational. You're the reason why we want to make a difference”. And it's not like who cares, obviously, young people – I hope we're inspirational. But that's definitely not all that we should be and all that we are. And the whole point of this is that young people have a perspective that's important to include in policies.

Mark Maslin  11:04 

So I asked Annabelle is Greta Thornburg a distraction, or an asset to the youth political movement?

Annabel Rice  11:14 

It's a difficult question to answer because I think that for young people like myself, Greta was and is really inspirational in what she did. Particularly like, originating with the school strikes, that felt like a real global moment. And I know, I felt it myself, it felt like people were having conversations about climate change, you know, in schools and universities, she really got the message going. And so, I also think that we should be cautious when we're talking about young people, you know, I think I can't remember how old she was when she started these strikes at 14? 15? I mean, which one of us would want to be that much in the public eye at that age? And so of course, she's got criticism and backlash, which you know, you might feel is justified or you might not. I think she's done a lot for young people in getting the message out. I think that also she's been a really incredible ally in terms of, you know, passing the mic; we have the classic line, but she has been really good at amplifying others in the youth space. And I think a lot of the way in which she's portrayed is sort of the only youth figure. It goes back to the conversations that we were having before. It's just youth, they're just not acknowledged that they're in these spaces, like young people are there. But there's so many different roles for everyone in the climate crisis, it’s that some people are amazing spokespeople. And I think she is an amazing, amazing spokesperson. But that's not the only role. You know, there's people who need to be involved in policy, there's people who need to be involved in operations and all these kinds of things. So yeah, it's a difficult question to answer because, yeah, I love Greta. I think she's great. And I feel really sad that we've got to a space in the media where a young person expressing their passion about an issue can be so villainized.

Simon Chin-Yee  12:56 

That was Annabelle Rice from Green Alliance.

UCL Minds  13:01 

You're listening to UCL Generation One, turning science and ideas into climate action.

Mark Maslin  13:10 

Our next guest with us in the studio today is Dr. Kris de Meyer. Kris is a Senior Research Fellow in Climate Communications in the Department of Earth Sciences here at UCL. Kris specialises in how people become entrenched in their beliefs, and how this leads to polarisation in society, and how we can overcome this.

Simon Chin-Yee  13:32 

Yeah, so welcome Kris. Kris, you are the first, the one, the only neuroscientist that we've ever had on this series. So a huge welcome to you. Please tell us, tell our listeners a bit about your role and what you do as a neuroscientist looking at human psychology and behaviour in relation to the climate crisis.

Kris de Meyer  13:51 

Thank you. So for us, the other climate action unit, climate really is a people problem. It's about how we are making sense of climate change, how that can be different across different people. How that might lead to disagreements to people who become really polarised in a particular view, not just on whether climate change is real or not. That debate is sort of had in the UK mostly. But what the problem is now is that we all have different views on what we should be doing about climate change. That isn't getting any easier as the effects of climate change are getting worse. Actually, our views on what to do about this can become more fragmented, the more serious the problem becomes. And that's the place where we as the climate action unit, then bring these insights from neuroscience and psychology to help to understand the polarisation, to help to deal with it, to manage it to overcome it. And to get us to a place where we do get a sense of like, this is how we could start acting on it in a way that gets us unstuck. Because a lot of people are stuck at the moment in that they want to do something about climate change, but they don't really know what it is that they could be doing.

Simon Chin-Yee  15:02 

Can you give examples, Kris, on that? I mean, this sounds so interesting, but I'm struggling to think of how you would actually practically give people advice on it.

Kris de Meyer  15:12 

Yeah. So we run some training programmes for different types of people. So the one place where we think actually, the low hanging fruit is, is with people in a professional capacity, who have to change something in the way that we are working, in the way that we're doing things. And where people say, like I understand, personally, I'm really concerned about climate change. But I don't really know how to bring that into my professional role. So we work sometimes with people in business and finance organisations, getting them to think through that. We work with people in the media, we help journalists to discover other ways to talk about climate change that they are currently doing, so move away from the doom and gloom narratives to other types of storytelling and communication.

Mark Maslin  15:56 

I love that engagement and how you're actually working with people to see the climate crisis as part of their wider role. I think that's fantastic. I mean, Kris, in this episode, we hear from two climate activists. And they're taking individual action because they see a lack of action happening, and also, it's too slow for them. So we'd love to hear from you to understand a little bit more about the human psyche around climate action and the barriers that exist. And that impedes those who are concerned about the climate crisis, you know, the ones that want to do more, but can't.

Kris de Meyer  16:32 

What happens is that different people are pulled towards different types of action and activism, that feels appropriate to them, in relation to the scale of the challenge that they are feeling. So that means that some people can start to be drawn towards that really radical activism, where they might think like, the only way that we're going to make change happen is this particular way of like, protesting. Whereas other people might be drawn towards other kinds of action and activism that is much more around, maybe getting involved in a community project, to do something on a local scale, et cetera. What happens though is that, like one of the core concepts that we are using in the climate action unit, is that actions drive beliefs. Like, much more often than our beliefs changing our action or driving our action, it's the things that we start to do that change the perceptions that we have. And so once you go down a certain route, once you start to become active in a certain way, that will then also start informing your view again, and reinforcing your view of like, this is the thing that is necessary. So it's not a problem that people are drawn towards different types of action and activism. What is the problem is if people start to believe that that's the only way to make change happen, because then you get sort of like, groups of people who are concerned about climate change coming together, and starting to fight with each other about like, your way is not a good way of doing it, my way is the only way of doing it.

Simon Chin-Yee  18:02 

In which case, do you think then that sort of climate activist movements like Extinction Rebellion, for example, can actually backfire on what they're trying to do? Which is increase awareness that the world, the governments, politicians need to have action on climate change. Or actually, they're just really annoying a lot of people in the public, and then that's backfiring on action at all climate change?

Kris de Meyer  18:26 

So it's kind of above my paygrade to decide for the rest of the world what the effect is of all that activism. But we do know that another insight that we use in the climate action unit is the pyramid of polarisation. And it helps you to understand how you move from having no opinion about something to having a very strong opinion for or against something. What happens is, if you are a neutral observer, and you're seeing people engaged in activism, you might come off the fence with regarding to what those people are doing. So you might start going down a pyramid and go down either on one side and become a proponent, like someone who supports that kind of action. Or you might go off on the other side of that pyramid and you become like an opponent, you become against that kind of action. So we know that when people who don't have a strong opinion about this when they start looking at all of these actions, they might form their views for or against. But that then is only with regards to the thing they are looking at, because the way that we are polarising ourselves, and because we do this to ourselves, this is what happens inside our brains. So the way that we are polarising ourselves is regards to very specific things. So even if a particular organisation creates more opponents than supporters, it doesn't then mean that all of the people who become opponents all of a sudden become climate sceptics. It's not like that. They might just be against that type of action.

Mark Maslin  19:59 

I mean for me now, we see lots of public opinion polls, that the climate crisis is a huge, big, scary thing. And we seem to communicate it in many occasions as this big huge threat. Can you help us think of ways of overcoming all those negative feelings? People, particularly young people are dealing with fear, worry, and anxiety, we know that climate anxiety is a real psychological issue.

Kris de Meyer  20:28 

So, health psychologists have been looking into the question of “can you scare people into action” since the 1950s. And the answer that they found is like, yes, you can do that, but only under very specific circumstances. The fear that your message contains needs to feel personal. And you need to accompany it with a solution that feels doable and meaningful, meaning that once you do the action that is communicated, you have no reason to be scared anymore. On climate we've never been in that situation. The fear that we're inducing with our doom and disaster messages always is very big. Even if it's not far away, it can be close, it doesn't matter. But it's big, it's on a planetary scale, basically it doesn't feel personal. And the second thing is that we haven't been successful in communicating those solutions that then will feel meaningful in reducing the crisis or in taking away your reasons for the fear. So what happens on those conditions is that you get very unpredictable outcomes, you get some people who become paralysed with anxiety, you get some people who are jolted into action, and you will meet lots of people who say, like, “I read this really scary thing, and it worked for me, it got me to change my job, or it got me to become active in this movement, or that a community organisation”, or whatever. But it also creates people switching off, and it creates denial. Like, lots of people that I met over the years that have been working on this, who've become climate deniers, did so on the back of seeing a very scary communication about climate change, not liking their own response to that, and saying, like, “I want to find out more about it”. And then you go online, and you look, you find the information. And of course, you can find information that confirms that you shouldn't be as scared as that message wanted you to believe. So that's what we know happens when you're using scare tactics in climate communication, we get that messy landscape of different opinions that we're seeing now. The way to circumvent that is not just to reach for hope, like I often hear that like, fear versus hope debate. And we know from psychological literature, that hope, using hope in communication can also have unintended side effects. Like you use a hopeful message. Some people will say, “Ah, this is really interesting, I'm going to get involved because they now know that there's something that I can do,” and other people become complacent. And they say like, “Oh, someone else is taking care of the problem. I don't need to pay attention anymore”. So what we're advocating in the climate action unit, and what we're also then working with storytellers and communicators to adopt, is what we call an action based storytelling approach, where you talk about the things we are doing to tackle climate change. There's a couple of reasons for that. One is that most of our ability to deal with big problems comes from seeing other people deal with the problem and learning from that. So in psychological language, that means that most of our agency, most of our knowing how to take action, comes from social learning. It comes from seeing other people solve a particular problem. So these stories of action will inspire all of us, will teach us what the next thing is that we can be doing. And my favourite example here is Greta Thunberg, who was inspired by young people in Florida after a school shooting, taking to the streets, and she said, “if they can do this on that school shooting, then I can do that about climate change”. So even she was inspired by the actions of other people. So that's why it's very important that we tell these stories of action, inspiration for our own action. And the final point, the final reason why action stories are important, is that they inoculate against that hopelessness, where lots of people are saying “nothing is happening”. That's not true. Certainly not enough is happening. But a lot has happened already. Someone recently calculated the amount of emissions that we've saved already by the policy actions that we've taken, someone in UCLA, basically, and found out that it's several gigatons, so per year that we're saving. So we are already doing things that have reduced the impact that we've had on the environment. Lots of people wouldn't know that however, lots of people say nothing has happened.

Simon Chin-Yee  24:58 

So on this positive side, climate change awareness is at a high around the world. Yes, there are lots of people that are probably sick of hearing about it. I work on climate change and sometimes I'm like, “no, not again, here we go”. But we know that you've written as well on about how we need to harness the climate change awareness into the land of climate action. Sort of a dream of what we're trying to do here at Generation One, UCL. Could you tell us a little bit more how you're doing this?

Kris de Meyer  25:28 

As a society, of course, we do have to crack the question of how do we turn awareness into action? And there's a couple of different things that we have been thinking about. And sorry, let me rephrase that. So there's a few points that I want to add to, no let me say that again. So as a society, of course, we do have to crack that question of how do we turn all of that awareness into action. And so in terms of the recipes to make that happen, I've already mentioned the big one of them, telling the stories of action is what will spur and inspire further action. We will learn from each other, we will build a sense of collective agency, where we know what each of us can be doing to contribute to that big transition that needs to happen. And then there's a couple of other things in there that are perhaps a little bit less intuitive at the moment or less spoken about at the moment. But one of the big ones that we're trying to achieve is getting to a state where everyone is able to separate their expertise from opinion. And the problem with that, is that there's a lot of opinion floating around about how we should be tackling the climate crisis and what we should be doing, and what the best recipes are for bringing people on board that aren't currently engaged, etc. Or who is at fault. And some of these opinions are based in expertise, but not all of them. And the reason for that is that all of us are experts in something, be it our professional expertise or our lived expertise that we have, our expertise as someone living in a community that has had certain life experiences, etc. But none of us is an expert in everything. And yet we are living in this world where we're constantly being invited to share our opinions, that doesn't allow us to separate them from our expertise. So we're floating, we're drowning in a sea of opinion. And the expertise is far too few to be found in. So like coming to a state where people know how to separate true expertise from opinion. Second point is like knowing how to collaborate with people who have a different perspective to our own. We're more and more fragmenting into little, like groups of people that don't want to work together with someone who disagrees with them. We need to get back to a stage where we know how we can collaborate with people who don't share our beliefs on everything. And that's, for example, across national boundaries, but it's also when you're working in a community. I recently saw a while ago, I heard stories of a certain town that was trying to bring people together to work on climate change. And they split in different factions because they couldn't come to an agreement around what it is that they wanted to do together. So rebuilding that ability to work together with people that you don't agree with on everything is very, very, very important. And the third point is for all of us working in a professional space. Far too often do we hear with people who sit in a certain sector or certain organisation: “Yeah, but that thing we can’t change”. Our mandates, our regulation, our norms, our way of thinking about things, the culture in our organisation. So we hear people say like “that we can't change. But those people over there, they need to change. They're the ones who have the power to change”. But then we go to those people and they say exactly the same, that thing, we can’t change that thing. And so we're really working very hard to change that response that people have from “we can’t change that” to “how do we change that”.

Mark Maslin  29:14 

Because of course, one of the great issues with climate change is that there are deniers, you know, the bogey people out there. And according to the ONS, their latest data for the UK says about one in 10 people say that the climate change science is exaggerated and 7% don't believe it's going to happen or is happening. So Kris, how do we deal with such entrenched beliefs that deny climate change is even happening? Do we ignore them? Do we attack them directly? What do we do?

Kris de Meyer  29:50 

When it comes to people that we call climate sceptics, we don't have to tackle them head on at the moment. We can leave them aside for the time being. In the UK, they are not a problem. They are not holding the political reigns. They're not the people for whom Rishi Sunak changed the net zero policies. He changed net zero policies to speak to another group of people who think that the change is happening too fast. That is not the one in 10, who thinks that climate change isn't going to happen at all. So the main issue is like, how do you work together at the moment with the different groups of people who have different views on how fast we should be moving, and what we need to be doing? That's already 80 to 90% of the UK population, the remaining 10% will move along as time progresses. When we did things like bringing seatbelt wearing back in the 70s, you had your seatbelt wearing sceptics that may have been 10, 20, 30%. 50 years on, that doesn't exist anymore. So reality will make that disappear, basically.

Mark Maslin  31:01 

So Kris, as a climate scientist, I'm seeing that the data is getting worse and worse, we're getting more heat waves, floods, wildfires, we're getting all these reports around the world. Does this intensification of climate change actually help persuade people? Or is it just making people more entrenched?

Kris de Meyer  31:21 

That's a really good question again, and it does both. Basically, when it comes to the reality of climate change, and people accepting the reality of it happening, of course, it erodes disagreements that exists there. So when it comes to the reality of climate change, yes, it will flatten out the disagreements, it will make them disappear. But when it comes to what it is that we need to be doing about this, it will intensify disagreements, and things that aren't really big fault lines at the moment will become bigger fault lines as the problems get larger. We're seeing some of these happening already. So for the longest part, we were talking mostly or only about emissions reduction, carbon capture is another one that is starting to come up where people say, the emissions reduction isn't happening fast enough, we need to start to really focus on carbon capture, that's the only thing that's gonna get us out of jail. And then there's a third argument growing around geoengineering. So we've got emissions reduction, carbon capture, geoengineering, that's just one area in which there are serious fault lines of disagreement brewing. There are dozens of other topics where also as climate change will get worse, will start fighting more and more with each other about whether is that a meaningful way to tackle climate change. What will be different though, is that the local disputes that you have about the kinds of things that you need to do to tackle the crisis will be different from place to place. So in some parts of the world, people might be really strongly thinking that we need, for example, the loss and damage funding to be increased or to be sorted out, whereas other parts of the world would not be thinking about that at all, because it's not currently the thing that they're discussing. What will be the same however, though, is the polarisation that can happen around specific ideas, that's a universal human thing. We can all get polarised, we can all get entrenched in a particular way of seeing things. And that's the thing that is linked to who we are as humans.

Mark Maslin  33:32 

Well, thank you, Kris, for that fascinating insight to what's stopping more people taking positive action, both locally and globally. And what we need to do.

Kris de Meyer  33:42 

Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure.

Simon Chin-Yee  33:44 

Thank you, Kris.

Simon Chin-Yee  33:51 

So that's it for this episode of Generation One from UCL, turning climate science and ideas into action. But stay tuned for the rest of the series or listen on catch up to all our episodes on your favourite platform. If you'd like to ask a question, or suggest a guest that you'd like to hear on Generation One, you can email us on podcasts@ucl.ac.uk. Otherwise, for more information about UCL’s work in the climate space, and what our staff, students and researchers are doing, just head to the UCL Generation One website. Or follow us on social media #UCLGenerationOne. So until next time, here is Louise Harris playing us out with her single: ‘We Tried’.

<‘We Tried’ by Louise Harri>

Transcribed by https://otter.ai