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Transcript: Working in the Heart of Government

Hear from speakers working across the UK Civil Service. Guests from the UK Statistics Authority (UKSA), Cabinet Office, and the UK Civil Service talk about their careers to date.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

civil service, people, questions, role, applying, internship, ucl, work, students, organisation, finance, stream, graduate schemes, graduate, programme, skills, terms, policy

SPEAKERS

Georgie Baker, Nasima Bashar, Martijn Breden, Jo Budd, Thines Ganeshamoorthy, Andrei Skorobogatov

Jo Budd

0:05

Hello there, everyone and welcome to the UCL careers podcast. My name is Joe Budd and I'm a careers consultant here at UCL. In today's episode, we hear from four professionals on what it's like to work in the heart of government. This discussion was recorded during the UCL careers government and policy themed week, which explores the multidisciplinary nature of working in government and how you can adapt your experiences if you're thinking about pursuing a career in this area. In this episode, you will hear from Georgie a project manager from the Cabinet Office, Martin, a financial planning advisor from the Ministry of Justice Andre, who works in the fraud policy unit to NES who is a generalist at the civil service fast stream. And today's conversation is being led by an Nasima Bashar, our internships and vacancy Officer here at UCL careers. You will hear from each of our panellists talking about their career journey since graduating, as well as their advice on what you can do with your time at UCL to help you build your skills and experiences toward a career working within government bodies. You'll also learn about the various routes you can take to get into the civil service itself. So let's get into it.

Nasima Bashar

1:22

In terms of our guests today, thank you for being here we have Andrei, Georgie, Thines. And I believe Martin has not joined us just yet, but will be with us, hopefully shortly. So if we crack on, Georgie, thank you for being here this evening. Can you tell us a little bit about your role? What does a project manager within the Cabinet Office ado, what does your role look like? Sure. So

Georgie Baker

1:53

hi, everyone, I'm Georgie. I work in the Cabinet Office as a project manager. And I'm sure most of you are saying what on earth does that mean Cabinet Office doesn't really say do what it says on the tin, like other departments do. But I work in a subset of Cabinet Office called the National Leadership centre, which was created by back when in 2018. So it's fairly new in terms of government initiatives and organisations. And I lead the design and delivery of a learning and development course for senior public service leaders. So these are the likes of director generals in civil service. chief executives of hospitals, Chief constables, anyone who's at the top of their game, in their sector, within public service, is on our course. And we have about 100 or So come on our course each year. Of course, this year has been a bit of a curve with going online versus bringing together those leaders physically. But I lead the project management of that. So I lead a team of about three, learning and delivery specialists who helped me with the learning and development side of things rather than delivery. And we deliver a course throughout the course of a year, that academic year, I also lead on the event delivery of a national leadership forum where we bring together all of those leaders. So that's about 1200, across the UK, into an event where they are able to be together in whatever sense that means with physically or online. And they talk about leadership struggles, challenges, issues that they're all facing in an interactive environment. And so that's my role in a nutshell.

Nasima Bashar

3:42

Thank you, Georgie. And prior to that, prior to working within the role that you're in at the moment, you did a graduate scheme with the National Audit Office, is that right?

Georgie Baker

3:51

Yeah, of course. So

Nasima Bashar

3:54

tell us a little bit about that. Yes, sorry. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how you found the transition from university going on to their graduate programme?

Georgie Baker

4:03

Sure. So I finished my master's at UCL in 2016. And I was unsure as to what path to follow next, sort of saw the pool of graduate schemes that are available and applied for a couple, one of which was the National Audit Office. So the application process was sort of written and then you went in for an assessment day, like many other graduate schemes, and after, I think within a day or so they got back to me so superspeed in that sense, that HR is is amazing in that in that respect, and but the position that I was on was a an auditor programme, so three years long, where you would do a series of examinations to become a chartered chartered accountant at the end of it. And I worked within the Ministry of Defence accounts. So the national Office for that take no holds government to account on what exactly they're spending and why. So the Audit Office is both audit, but it's also investigations based. So there's two branches to their organisation. And we were involved in both of those throughout the course of three years, primarily a Ministry of Defence. And that's probably where my interest in actually getting involved in where the money was being spent. And moving across the government came, rather than, you know, sitting on the outskirts and pointing the finger when they were spending money a bit unwisely. But say,

Nasima Bashar

5:37

do you mind imagine, many students here today would resonate with that sort of having lots of graduate schemes that are being advertised and not exactly sure where to head? And what is sort of of interest to them? Was there any skills that you found you very much benefited from at university you develop that you carried forward in your graduate scheme, and that you found really helpful?

Georgie Baker

6:01

Sure, I guess, for the initial sort of interview and the assessment day, and definitely skills that I learned throughout my degrees were personal presence and presenting yourself in a clear and concise and confident manner that gets across the message, which you want to. And so I would definitely encourage students to take any opportunity to present their work or what they're thinking with two hands. Rather than shy away from it. I definitely shied away from it initially. But realising how much it would help you further on in interviewing and applying for things is worth its weight in gold, I think.

Nasima Bashar

6:44

Thank you. Just what you've touched upon leads to my next question, which is around for anyone interested in this area? Who's starting out? Would there be any advice that you'd offer from where you're sort of looking at your own career path at the minute?

Georgie Baker

7:00

Sure. So I would definitely recommend reaching out to those individuals who perhaps work in the HR department on those grad schemes, they have specific people who are there and waiting for your email to come in on a query on what that whatever you might have on that grad scheme and how to approach the application process. For example. One thing which is also quite useful with with approaching grad schemes is many of the organisation makeup is made up of people who have gone through that grad scheme. And I would highlight the National Audit Office as there are no silly questions because everyone has been in your shoes at some time or another in the past, however many years, many of them started off as grads, and it's a well established grad scheme, as I'm sure many others are. So doing a bit of LinkedIn stalking, it doesn't hurt nowadays, to reach out to someone and say, hey, what was your experience? with doing the scheme? Would you recommend it? Are there any tips and tricks, but also reach out to those who work in HR to because they are there to help rather than hinder your application?

Nasima Bashar

8:08

Thanks, Georgie. And in terms of just within university itself, would you recommend students take up sort of voluntary work or take part in societies? And what do you think they can take from that or those sort of activities and bring towards them sort of graduate schemes or future employment? can you offer it?

Georgie Baker

8:28

I guess then in terms of civil service, I put my civil servant hat on, and applications competency based or strength based, and they look for experiences and examples that you can provide, that demonstrate you have a skill or behaviour from all walks of life. So even if you haven't, you know, had multiple internships or work experience placements. You can draw examples from all areas of your life, whether that be volunteering at a society, university society, or I don't know heading up some some other group, I would definitely value those experiences more so. And it can be just talking to someone who perhaps is in post in civil service and asking them, what examples would you draw from given that I'm a university student, I perhaps don't have work experience, like others do. But where can I draw a behaviour and write it down in a succinct manner, which will take a box and get me through to the next stage of interviewing. It's worth saying that I've been on recruitment panels where we have recruited new grads versus those who've been in in jobs for multiple years, and we've placed the same sort of value on out of work experiences as well as in work experiences. So definitely recommend grabbing all the opportunities that you can, but also thinking about why you're doing Mm, what that will build in terms of your strengths and behaviours going forward?

Nasima Bashar

10:06

Thank you. That's super helpful. I think students can often underplay part time jobs or any sort of voluntary work that they've been part of. But that is definitely something from what you said, they can showcase, you know, assessment centres and the application towards the civil service. Andrei, if I can turn to yourself, please. So you've recently joined the fraud policy unit? Can you tell us a little bit about that? What does your role entail and what attracted you towards the civil service? to begin with? Big question? Sure.

Andrei Skorobogatov

10:41

So I, I joined the civil service in 2016. I graduated from UCLA in 2014. With with my BA in esbs. And I, I worked for two years in London for London Business School. And then I joined the civil service fast stream. And after graduating from the fall stream, I joined him offers weapons strategy for a bit, and then a couple of months ago joined the fraud policy unit. fraud is quite an insidious crime, it's more than a third of all crime. It's quite a difficult to solve problem. And the it's kind of the what I greatly enjoy about the civil service as that is, it's kind of you, it's not just working to make things better for people, which you're doing in a variety of public sector jobs, but which is hugely aspirational. But you work at a systemic level, you try and not just help one person, two people, you try and help everybody right. So we have something like 3.7 million victims of fraud every year. And my role is I'm I'm I lead on victims of fraud. So trying to figure out how the whole system can work better to support them, and to make it all work together between the third sector, law enforcement, government, the financial sector, everybody we can. It's a it's a really, really interesting role. And the home office is certainly fascinating department. It deals with a variety, a huge variety of issues from ranging from immigration, passports, counterterrorism, policing, serious and organised crime, which is where I work, counter terrorism, all sorts of things. And you face such as kind of, it's both. It's just a kind of a systemic level. So you're going to try and think about all different leavers. First of all, try to understand the whole system trying to understand what the evidence base is, you try and think about the sheer scale of it, right. So this is the entirety of the UK Government. And his response to two quarters costing quite a horrific crime and quite a lot of harm caused by it, you try and think about, so and then you think about the kind of the, there is a certain intellectual challenge in terms of trying to solve it and trying to make things better for a lot of people. And that's also something that I've found massively interesting from from working in the civil service. Frankly, and just kind of thinking broadly, in my current role, there is a massive interest interesting thing about the kind of in government, which is that I've never found that to be a boring role. You can often do all sorts of different things ranging from finance to operational delivery, so potentially look down workout or something like that, or to call a policy or to finance every role is interesting, every role is different. And it's always something. It's always full of people who care and very bright people, people who care who are trying to make the world make a little bit more sense, really, in which is a particular prep in this day and age.

Nasima Bashar

13:49

Thank you. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more in the sense that I think a lot of students when they're graduating, they worry, you know what, I enjoy my new role. But it seems as if a lot of the work within the civil service is very multidisciplinary. And you're sort of drawing on various different skill sets. It's not just Are you an economist or that sort of thing, you know, you're drawing on a lot more skills, but 3.7 million for victims a year is an astonishing amount, to say the least. But your work sounds very, very interesting. If I just touch on, you mentioned you worked at the NSC prior to starting with the civil service. So could you tell us a little bit about that? And sort of did you find it beneficial from the moment you saw graduated getting some work experience under your belt, and then applying to the civil service? Did you find that sort of advantageous? And can you talk a little bit about that? Sure.

Andrei Skorobogatov

14:41

I mean, when I graduated, I think like, like many people who graduate, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And I just put my, my, my CV on a recruitment website, and I was contacted by them and told to apply for for London Business School where I worked in executive education, so something quite similar to what Georgia actually is doing now. I call ordinated and managed a series of executive education programmes, for senior managers from a range of different companies. It was a, it was an interesting role. And I got a great deal from that I kind of got to travel I, for me was what I gained probably most from it was understanding of how an office environment works, it's often quite jarring going from a university environment. Even if you had done some sort of voluntary stuff in a in an office, or internship stuff in an office involving before, kind of dealing with HR dealing with emails, kind of office etiquette, that is often quite quite helpful bit of experience. But ultimately, I would say, very much that any experience of all varieties is massively helpful. The Civil Service is there are loads and loads of routes into it, right. So they don't have to go from the faster in the fall stream is a very small subset. And it's a graduate scheme. It's a useful graduate scheme. But I mean, I, I took me three goes to get into it, I was thinking of applying otherwise, many people who get very, very foreign service or get to the very top roles apply and get in through other other means. So can through just, you know, going on civil service, jobs, websites and applying for a role. I found my kind of experience also of useful as gave me a lot of external knowledge around what the world looks like outside the civil service. I think in this day and age, there's no, it's no longer the kind of the long term career that he once was, it's not in terms of, I mean, many people still do it that way. But it's not kind of, it's not so different from the private sector, or from from the academic sector, the third sector that you have, you're forced to pick one or the other, I think most people will now expect to do a little bit of public sector or private sector in their lives. And it's kind of forms a part of that. And, and, and it's just kind of, there are, again, I would probably say there are many other useful public sector jobs, I would probably say that kind of working for local government or for the NHS, or for the huge array of different public bodies. I know the BBC Environment Agency, there are big and small employers, and all of them have different and properly very, very interesting roles that I would recommend doing.

Nasima Bashar

17:16

Thank you so much for that, I think that's really, really helpful just to see the different routes, and he took three attempts to get in. So you know, that's fantastic. He got there. And so where you are at the moment, where you are at the moment might seem a little bit far fetched just for some of the recent graduates or the students in our audience at the moment. So someone who's interested in the field, what advice would you give to them at the moment?

Andrei Skorobogatov

17:39

So I would echo much before Georgie said, I think it's it is very much around considering or the second degree of kind of career planning you probably ought to do and you recommend looking on the kind of competencies, strengths, behaviours and trying to think about your kind of career development in, in the context of, of where you are now, and what sort of soft you are doing. I'd recommend also, so I'm, I recommend doing some sort of voluntary stuff or some internships, I would say that most internships, and also I would suggest that not there's no necessity to rely on internships significantly. So I only ever did one week of internship while I was University. That's not to say that, I mean, I did some voluntary stuff as well. But I think I love there are there are plenty of paid internships, and I think those are certainly the ones people should be looking for. I mean, the civil service kind of offers significant numbers of internships through the summer diversity internship programme and the diversity programme. So those are certainly worth looking at. But I think that again, there are many internships across the country, across the sector. But also, again, it's kind of it's it's not even about what the experiences are, there is experience that is quite useful. It's about how you deploy it, or how you use it in interviews, how you understand what roles to apply for how you think about how you think about how to position yourself. And again, again, echoing what Georgia said, talk to people, people, I mean, I mean, for example, I myself, I'm perfectly happy, someone reached out to me through LinkedIn and asked how do I get into service, I'd be happy to help them out and have a chat. And I think there are many people like that it's sometimes intimidating to go out and ask, but I think it's a case of, there's not there's nothing lost, really by going out and asking somebody if they didn't respond to you and respond to you and you let them happen. And if they do respond to you, he might get a really useful conversation out of it. I'd also say kind of go to events sign up to reading distribution lists for think tanks. I mean, go to events in person is more difficult now, but actually, now that probably means that there are more, more spaces available to listen in on any kind of there are think tanks and bodies for any sort of different things that you're interested in. And it could be an environment it could be, I don't know, local rotex it could be criminal crime and justice, it could be literally across the entire sector. Kind of kind of this inanimate of things, some kind of some reading of what those organisations are doing. But also, again, it's just thinking about and trying to understand how the particular recruitment processes work for each individual organisation. And just at some point, it's also just a numbers game, you just have to kind of, you know, start applying to stuff and not getting too fazed by it. Eventually, I mean, it is a little bit, there's a little bit of luck involved really. And, and also not getting discouraged. As I said, I only got an on the third go, many of my peers, likewise, probably only gotten on the third go, there are. That's kind of one of the advantages of why there are so many different grad schemes, which can be a little bit confusing, but I think it's just a case of doing some research. I'd strongly push local government, which is hugely rewarding, and you actually deal with a lot with kind of more day to day people. And I mean, look and deliver something like 80% of all the services that the everyday citizen actually encounters. I'd also say that kind of, there's loads of really cool roles, even within the civil service, it doesn't have to be policy, but it can be policy, it can be operations, it can be corporate stuff. And some of the coolest jobs I've ever done, where it's kind of most appeared to be the most boring back office stuff. And actually, they were the most rewarding for me from both career perspective, but also from actually being able to help people.

Nasima Bashar

21:30

Sure, thank you so much, Andre, I think definitely is one thing you take from one to 130, sort of our voluntary work, especially given the COVID climate paid internships can be very, very competitive naturally. So at the moment, it might be a little bit more difficult, but voluntary work and showcasing those skills in applications, whether it be the civil service or any other government organisation. If it's one thing you take it from that tunez, if I can turn to you, please. So you're currently in your first year of the civil service trip the fast stream? Can you tell us a little bit about how that's going and sort of any of the work that you've been involved with so far in?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

22:09

Yes, thank you. So hi, everyone, as Nasima said, I'm Thines. I've graduated from UCL in 2018. In ba politics, and East European studies at SES. I started with the fast stream in October 2019. So last year, but I had to take a bit of an interruption in the middle due to underlying health reasons, which we'll touch on a bit later. So I've actually carried on my first year posting into this academic year as well. So I'll be with my current placement till October 2021. So currently, my post I am a assessment policy officer working for the Department of Work and Pensions. And what does a policymaker do, what does a policy officer do? as Jonathan Slater, who was the policy professional lead up until very recently said, a policymaker specialism is delivering outcomes in their specialist policy area. So for me, it's currently working benefit policy. And as Andre had alluded to working in the civil service, it's about achieving very real world outcomes for individuals or the collective members of the public by enacting the will of our ministers and our secretary states and those who we elect as our representatives to make those decisions for us. And working within the DWP has been really rewarding, because it's one of the very few departments that no matter your age, you will have come into contact with at some point, from the moment you are born to the moment till you pass away, there is some level of interaction that you will have with the DWP. So it's a fantastically people forward organisation. And where I'm working now is looking at assessment policy and supporting to make assessments for to ensure that people are getting the right kind of benefits, and they're on the right and benefits as easy as possible. So one of the you know, I remember within the first couple of weeks of starting on the fast stream, I was in front of the Secretary of State pitching or supporting what I call pitching and one of the submissions and ideas that we were having quite recently. So that really is a testament to what a career not just because of being in the classroom, but being in the civil service can afford you because it is very much a very real responsibility from day one. And you are very actively supported by colleagues to be confident and be able to support in sort of those kinds of work. So it isn't, it isn't a scary you do have your support of your colleagues. And it is very much practical, real, meaningful work, which is really humbling.

Nasima Bashar

24:35

Thank you. And I'm sure the audience would like to know sort of about the roots into the civil service, because I know Andre touched on that before. So to know that you did an internship within the civil service within the department previously and then apply to the civil service our stream. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Was the application any different just because you'd already done an internship with the civil service?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

24:59

Yes, thank you. So I'm, I did the summer diversity internship programme back in 2015. So that was when I was in my second year at UCL. And the summer diversity internship programme, as Andre alluded to, is for a particular cohort of students who are either from a Bain background, or from our background, who who are who consider themselves socially and economically disadvantaged, who have a disability. And as someone who falls on all three of those categories, I was delighted to come across this opportunity because up until then, I had never really considered a career within the civil service or even knew it as an opportunity to go into so when I got on the internship, it was a fantastic moment. I was the internship lasted about nine weeks, and I was placed in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in the consular Directorate, which supports our citizens citizens are British citizens abroad, making sure that they get any help and support that they might need while they're enjoying the holidays or working or whatever they might be doing abroad. And it was a fantastic really insight, as I said, and not only did it give me the chance to get involved with some real tangible work, which sometimes in internships is hard to come by, when some of the stuff that I did involve using my specialist knowledge that I had of children, young people's rights and welfare, sort of policy and background in order to evaluate their elearning packages, which had just come in to strain the safeguarding the constant emphasis on safeguarding, so it was a really good opportunity. But as well as the job and the kind of work we got to do was a really good opportunity to challenge some of the misconceptions I had about the civil service and the kind of people that work there. And I was really pleased to know that none of my misconceptions were held true. And that was one of the reasons I decided to apply and return on graduation. So one of the differences in terms of the internship to getting on the fast stream most fast streamers that happened to take on the step, after I did, I was one of the unlucky ones, I missed out on what they have now, which is called the Fast Pass. So if you whilst you complete your step, and you get a positive review from your line manager, then you can your fast your application, you get to bypass quite a lot of the early stages, and you get straight to the assessment centre stage, because you will have already have proven or shown competencies in applying for the step. And then therefore you get a bit of that privilege as it were. But to be honest, I quite relish the opportunity to redo the different stages again and improve my competencies and really think about that. But yeah, and as Andre said, like, I also was successful, my second term plan around not my first time around on the fostering even though I'd done the step, there was it's not no guarantee of getting a place on the far stream, it is obviously about building up those skills and awarenesses of competencies. So yeah,

Nasima Bashar

27:48

perfect. And you are also a disability advocate, would you like to tell us a little bit about that. And anything students who may have a disability, what they should be aware of and actively sort of ask about adjustments, whether that be within the civil service, or any other governmental organisation they apply to?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

28:07

Yes, absolutely. So just as a quick sort of crazy, I have a condition known as osteogenesis imperfecta, or bare bone disease, which basically means I have very fragile bones, I've had over 200 fractures in my lifetime. I'm 26. So quite a significant number. And one of the reasons why I'm actually dialling from in bed rather than sitting in furniture. But growing up, I've come to face various challenges due to being able to use and having a physical disability. And I know the level of concern it can add when thinking about going into the world of work or even to university. So that's why I've really got involved in this kind of work trying to support organisations looking at what they can do better, but also supporting students and being more confident in disclosing their conditions to employers. So in terms of top tips, one of the main things I would recommend or suggest is if you're comfortable to and feel able to I would recommend letting your employer know, or potential employer know, as early on as possible. And as Georgie said, there are HR people within the graduate schemes that you can email and engage in those conversations even before any graduate application cycles begin. So you can really start having this conversation, letting them know and the earlier you have these conversations the more time they have to put these things in place and make sure that you get the support that you need. And there's various support mechanisms you can get in terms of travel costs, help with travel costs, help with maybe having a support work, or even just physical adjustments to make you like more time or different equipment. So there are lots of things you can get access to just make sure you reach out to people to get advice. And you know, disability should never be a barrier to you getting to your dreams and achieving what you want. So and there are definitely mechanisms and support out there to make sure that that isn't the case. But yeah, it's about having the confidence and making sure you reach out when you can

Nasima Bashar

29:53

perfect and just slightly related to that you're sort of what skills Would you say that you can Take full academic studies towards sort of applying with the civil service similar to what I've asked or wondering, and Georgie, what would be your take on that?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

30:10

Well, I sort of had a few things prepared about sort of what I sort of took away or what sort of, I think was important to bring to this little service or any kind of career. And that was sort of creative, diverse and flexible thinking and good communication. So that I think those pay quite hand in hand, especially with the coronavirus outbreak, we've all had to think differently, work differently to deliver quite innovative solutions to quite everyday problems. So I really think, you know, having that's where the advantages of having recruits and having graduates from a various variety of backgrounds, not straight, necessarily straight out of university, having had done other and gotten and got other experiences coming into the civil service can be an advantage, because we benefit from sort of having that wide breadth of thinking and experience and a knowledge. And that's really, that's something that's advantageous. So I guess, promoting what the other said about if you're not necessarily successful getting on the fostering, or through the civil service through civil service jobs or other ways, go and explore your passions, explore your hobbies, and go take up opportunities in there. And you can always come and join the civil service at some point in the future. And again, just touching on good communication, within government and within other organisations, you will find yourself communicating with a range of individuals, internal external members of the public, and it's important to feel comfortable and confident in getting your message across in the right way at the right time. So working on those skills, both virtually through email, and through personal interactions through other means is also something I think it's important to work on, if you can

Nasima Bashar

31:41

100%. Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more in the sense that soft skills are just as important if I mean, arguably, if not more, in the sense of communicating because regardless of what industry you go into, whether that be public sector, private sector, there's going to be a lot of communication going on there. Thank you, Thines. Martijn, would you add anything to what she said? And that's that? So in terms of you are in your third year of the finance class, she was thus right. And would you add anything to what Tina's has said? Around the skill set that they're looking for? Yeah.

Martijn Breden

32:14

Um, no, absolutely. So like, Thines. And yeah, like, pretty much everyone else's. so far. I didn't get on to fostering in my first try. So it was my second sound, definitely reiterate that point, don't give up. The assessment centre itself, if you got to up to that stage, it's quite an experience in of itself. So yeah, don't let that deter you. If you're not successful, the first time around. A lot of people will just take them second or third try and yeah, there's no shame in that at all. So yeah, I mean, in terms of the skill set, like Xs said, soft skills are tremendously important. I graduated from UCLA back in 2016, unlike Gurjeet was with a master's degree in security studies. So yeah, that's much more about diplomacy. And personally, I'm on a finance fostering. So there's not necessarily a lot of overlap there. So the skills that I really found useful, were those soft skills and was especially around communication written or otherwise, especially if you're putting it advise up to ministers, for instance, then yeah, those written those skills are really, really key. But more generally speaking, yeah, soft skills are, in my opinion, at least as important if not more, more than that the hard skills especially early on in your career, it's about making those relationships with all your colleagues and not necessarily burying yourself deep into work, but really developing those relationships which will help you in the rest of your career as well.

Nasima Bashar

33:55

Perfect. Thank you. Um, so my Martin, you're on the finance posture. Can you tell us a little bit about how that differs from sort of the generalist which is what tunez is on at the moment? Can you give us a little bit of information about that? No, absolutely.

Martijn Breden

34:08

So yeah, like I said, I'm on the finance fostering currently in my third year my first posting was an the mo j as a finance business partner. I'll get into the details on what that what that means exactly in a second. Second roll was over at DWP where Xs is now and I was in strategic finance there and now I'm back at Ministry of Justice in strategic planning. Well, back to basics really um, I think in the finance fostering really differs from from the generalist or some of the other schemes in two key regards, one of course, is the type of role and the second is the finance qualification. So, the types of roles and projects that you work on can still very vary considerably, depending on which exact role you get Once you joined the finance fall stream, so generally speaking, there are free job families, there is financial strategy, where you work on things like the autumn budget or spending review, which some of you might know. Yeah. So you would get to work closely with ministers with policy and strategy colleagues to set really set that future direction of the department. And personally, I found that really interesting and challenging work. Especially I think, in the past several years, where we've had to deal with a lot of unexpected events such as COVID, and just dealing with the fallout from that financial and otherwise. And I mean, same goes really for for the transition period, more generally speaking, so you get at times, it can be fairly reactive work. But it's really interesting and looks at those long term impacts of developments like COVID. And yeah, some really high exposure to, to minister for instance. And then second, job family is financial business partnering, where you help departments deal with large projects or help particular areas within the departments deal with their finances. And the third area is financial control and operations. And that's really the technical accountancy roles. Personally, that's not what I enjoy, but others do very much. So that those are, can be internal or external reporting ties, tax risk, compliance, think things like that. And yeah, so that, of course, that is where a key difference between finance and some of the other streams, such as a generalist where you'll be making policy, for instance. And the second big difference is, of course, the finance qualification. And I think that's also a big benefit of the finance fall stream, is that you get the opportunity to complete a recognised finance qualification. So, yeah, you currently get the option between a number of those, I'm studying the ACA, and it's effectively a three year programme, and which you have to do a number of exams and have to go through professional development skills and things like that. But at the end of the day, after, after three years out of the four years that the Find the flash dream is long, and you'd be qualified, and you have that qualification. It does mean, of course, that you're also in college for for a fair bit. Because it is a significant part of your finance, fostering journey. But I think it's a really big benefit to have that on top of your day to day exposure as well. So I got two key differences. Yeah. I think that the finance qualification is a big benefit as well.

Nasima Bashar

37:48

Brilliant. Definitely. Yes. I think a lot of students don't realise how many different sort of family groups as you mentioned, there are so it's a really interesting touch on Thank you. And just very briefly, sort of was your experience getting Cerner, everyone's mentioned so far, they didn't get in on their first shot was sort of your experience the same in the sense of Tinos. And even though China had already done an internship, but he still had to go through the whole process. Did you? I assume you had to start from the very beginning and go through to the end, as you hadn't had any familiarity previously?

Martijn Breden

38:22

No, absolutely. That's right. So yeah, I didn't do an internship, which in retrospect, I probably should have done. I'm just to give you that exposure. And realistically, it will just give you a leg up. But having said that, yeah, definitely other ways into the civil service, besides to the flow to fall stream, of course. But yeah, in terms of my personal experience, my personal journey. Yeah, in retrospect, I might have set a little bit too much time in university, I think I ended up with two bachelor and two masters degrees. And so I spent a fair bit of my time in uni. After that, I was really done with learning I really wanted to get get out there and get involved, which is when I did some consultancy work. But personally, I didn't really find that all that challenging, or particularly meaningful in terms of the things that I was contributing towards. So I really started to look for something else, like set something more meaningful, where I could have more of a personal impact. And you have some friends of mine had applied for the fall stream on gotten on had really positive stories. And that's effectively how I learned of, of the civil service of the fall stream. I mean, as you be able to tell by my accent, I'm not from the UK originally. I'm from from the Netherlands. So yeah, I mean, that was just an added, well, why am I my opinion benefit of being able to work in a foreign civil service effectively, but that that has been a really, really interesting experience.

Nasima Bashar

40:00

Brilliant, thank you very much. I did have a few more questions. I'm very conscious of time. And so we've presented, we've opened the questions to the students. And so if I stopped sort of asking the questions from students, so the first one was for Andre, Andre, you mentioned that you put your CV on a recruitment website, are you at liberty to say which one? Or can anyone make any recommendation? So would you like to elaborate on that? If you can, Andre, please?

Andrei Skorobogatov

40:29

Sure. I actually can't remember, it's one of the big ones. I think I just put them on all of them. And just one of the ones eventually responded to me. It really wasn't that exciting. I'm going to put two links into the into the, into the chat. So once for the success profiles, which is the primary recruitment kind of methodology or assessment criteria, I would even say for for civil service, and the other ones, just the civil service jobs website. Yeah, also, can I just make one more pitch, which is that the pay is actually not that terrible. There are a lot of rumours about about government public sector pay. And that might be an issue at the top levels of the of the organisation. So maybe 10 1520 years down the line, but initially, very comparable to anything you get in the private sector.

Nasima Bashar

41:19

Thank you. And Georgie, if I may ask them. How did you a question from Zara, how did you prefer prepare sorry for the application process?

Georgie Baker

41:30

Thank you be open and honest here after the other three have have said that they didn't make it on first try in the fast stream. I applied for the fast stream and I didn't get in it. First try However, I'm not sure whether they still do this. I think they do. In some departments, they hold a reserve list for 12 months many jobs do which oversubscribed with excellent candidates. And they become a pool of, of resource to pick and choose for other teams to get someone in a bit quicker than rather rather than going out and recruiting another round. So it's worth bearing that in mind. And I was appointed on on that basis versus any sort of formal application process. So merit was given to me that I'd done the assessment centre met a level which meant that I was I was able to be directly appointed, rather than go through another application process. So the way that that played out was I got a phone call one day at work from from a lady within the Cabinet Office to HR. And he said we have your name on a list here. Would you like to come for an informal conversation with a vacancy holder told me a little bit about the role. And the week later, I had that conversation in the office in in one horseguards Road when we were allowed to go back there. And I was appointed as accepting security checks about a couple of months later. So it is a fairly quick process. And it's a way that you can bypass applying again. And I fully expected not to get it. I fully expected to be a little bit disappointed after the fast stream thing go through. But I bear that in mind as something which not a lot of people know about. There is a pool of 12 month reserve lists which departments and teams can can pick upon. And I didn't really prepare for her for it, I'll be quite honest. Go in there thinking that you can do it, especially when you get to interview and give yourself that little pep talk which you know, a senior a senior member of your family might give you or a friend. And I would say believe that you can do it. As long as you sort of prepared competency questions thought about what they may ask you in relation to that job, bro. You're probably good to go. And again, sort of linking to Andres link though on success profiles have a read of those have a read of what you may need to accentuate in terms of your skills and behaviours. And have those in mind.

Nasima Bashar

44:08

Perfect, thank you very much. She knows if I can direct this question at you. In terms of the internship, how does the assessment and application process differ for EDP, SDM and fast stream and last for thrifty?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

44:26

Thank you. So I was like, Yeah, I was just looking at this question just to figure out what the different stages are because I because either the early diversity internship programme was introduced after the summer diversity internship programme, so they so it's, it's one of the new ones but as for my knowledge, and I am prepared to be corrected if I'm wrong, and there is always more information available on the Civil Service website about the specifics of the application. But from my knowledge, each of the stages of starting from the EDA which you can apply for at the end of your first year. It's a pared down version of the full fostering processes. That's the online tests and the situational judgement and the E tre and video interview. So the dip is sort of a very, very pared down version, because it's only I think, for a week or one couple of days internship in the summer in the first year. And the second year. As I said, when I did it, it was like I pretty much did all of the stages that I did for the fall stream. Apart from that video interview, because at the time when I did my Estep, I did the telephone interview, which was the procedure at the time. And if you do get the step, and you get the Fast Pass, as I said, if you then apply for the fast stream, then you get the, you get to skip straight to the assessment centre stage, as opposed to having to re do the early stages. I'm sorry, that wasn't the most comprehensive of answers. But as I say, a lot of the information you need and the latest adjustments to the various assessment processes, which are changing because of COVID. And also, in our triangle, the civil service trying to stay innovative, obviously changes every year. So definitely urge everyone to check out the website when the window opens.

Nasima Bashar

46:01

Perfect. And Martin, there's a question direct for you. Are there any requirements for non UK nationals in terms of residency requirements? And that's from why he'd I think there's a lot of students mind, just because there's a lot around sort of UK, eu nationals etc. Can you elaborate on that?

Martijn Breden

46:19

Yeah, of course. I mean, of course, things like that are changing at the moment. So yeah, I'm, you might want to check the civil service law stream website for particulars there. But at the time that I applied, all you really had to be I mean, obviously, you had to have the right to work in the UK and me being a Dutch citizen. That meant that Yeah, I was also a European citizen, therefore, able to move to the UK, and I had the right to work here. So yeah, that for me, basically, manda I have met met those criteria. I think there are quite specific criteria on on, either on residency or nationality. But yeah, my just want to check what what, how, and if, if anyone does have changed or are about to change, because of the end of the transition period?

Andrei Skorobogatov

47:14

Can I can I just quickly pipe up. So I'm also at your national, our British National. And as you can probably guess, from a Russian national, nationality, as long as you've got a ride to work in UK. The nationality requirements are relatively relatively kind of simple. I think for some roles, they are restricted for obvious reasons. But for most roles, they are open to I think it's UK and Commonwealth citizens and maybe a as well, I would, I would, I would, I would double check on some some jobs a difference, I would just double check when you do your jobs. It should be very clear.

Nasima Bashar

47:56

Thank you, um, and Tina's going to start with it. So Isabel has asked, Do you have to have a specific undergraduate degree in politics or related areas to go into the civil service? Or is any degree a good degree? Because I think a lot of students here today have from various different backgrounds?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

48:14

Yes, absolutely, I would say does, as with other a lot of the other advice that we've given, it doesn't really matter. You don't need to have a specific background or a specific grounding or specific degree, you don't necessarily need to have a master's degree. As I see, I've seen one of the other comments was alluding to, it's not, it's all about, you're interested about your passions, if you have ish passions and interests in any areas, that's what I would say pursue but in terms of getting a role within the civil service, there are so many roles and you will become a specialist. If you want to do policy, you want to become a specialist like I'm trying to be with welfare policy, you will adopt those skills and that knowledge by being in post. But I think by leaving yourself open and just exploring your passions, and not pigeonholing yourself, and trying to maybe study what you think you need to study in order to get to where you want to be, is not necessarily my chosen. Recommendation, I think, study what you want, do what you want. And there will always be an opportunity or a pathway within the civil service, or within public policy for you. And you will always get the support that you need to develop the knowledge and the expertise that you need once you're there. So don't try and pitch in your hopes of too much this early on.

Nasima Bashar

49:24

Brilliant. Thank you. And if I directly fat laundry, what would you say your top tips for success in the civil service fast stream video interview stage.

Andrei Skorobogatov

49:37

I can I put this on one of my other colleagues. I didn't I was one of the last cohort to do a face to face interview during my assessment centre. So I am not I any questions about the current process? Probably best targeted at those. It's been four years since I last did it.

Nasima Bashar

49:55

Okay, brilliant. Thank you for being so transparent tonight. Would you like to take that one?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

49:59

Just so What was the question again? Sorry?

Nasima Bashar

50:02

What would you say are your top tips for success in the civil service fostering video interview stage?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

50:10

Perfect, thank you. So as George's alluded to, often, I would get myself very familiar with the strength and behaviours that you'll see on mine that I'm sure someone's read. I think Andre shared in the chat, look at the leadership behaviours and become sort of very familiar with those. Those are the sort of the core competencies and sort of skill sets that you will be looking to explore examples on one of the I often get asked to do one off coaching calls by students because I get contacted through the UCL alumni page. So I normally give sort of this advice to people who get in touch, make sure that you test your tech. And don't leave it to the last minute, because you normally get five days turnaround from when you finish one stage to complete the video interview. So make sure you try and complete the video interview, sort of day three or day four. So in case you encounter any technical issues, you still have the chance to finish it. And also test the tech beforehand and also rehearse doing some sample answers and talking to yourself on camera because a video interview isn't necessarily you talking to another person, you are just talking and recording yourself and response to a question that pops up on screen that you have about 30 seconds to prepare for. So for some people, including myself, I found that very awkward. So I would advise if you're of a similar nature, not just practising in front of a mirror, but actually sitting yourself in front of a computer and recording it as if you were giving an answer. And just watch yourself back, see if you feel comfortable to get your answers done within the allotted time. And so those are the three things I say,

Nasima Bashar

51:43

perfect and Martine or Georgie Would you like to add anything to Xs watching? As I said?

Martijn Breden

51:51

I think that's a really comprehensive I mean, yeah, like tenez find it incredibly uncomfortable to talk to yourself on the screen, and especially then to limit yourself to I'm not sure what the exact requirements were, let's say a minute or 30 seconds or whatever it was, can be really challenging. And you might just start to just blob blabber on. Yeah, so it's good to practice that,

Nasima Bashar

52:18

too, which would you like to add anything at all?

Georgie Baker

52:21

Just a simple one, really, I've recently had a series of interviews and bid on interview panels and dress the part, I got a document sent over by one of the departments that I was applying for, we have some top tips on not least tech, but also presenting yourself and making sure that you're aware of what's in your background. Like you've got a lovely orchid, and that's lovely to look at. And there's there needs to be something in the background, which perhaps is as interesting as what you're saying, but not too interesting. So, simply dress the part dress for the role. And pretend that it is actually an interview and there is somewhat behind that screen as as however difficult that might be. Even perhaps get someone behind the behind the camera behind the webcam. So you are talking to someone or picture. Be creative.

Nasima Bashar

53:15

That sounds very, very interesting advice. So pretending that there is someone there or asking someone to be there and then practising practising, and then they get removed from the equation once you do the video. And Georgie, if I could just ask one last question. Thinking about the success profiles, what kinds of questions might they ask our interview to check these skills? Are you at liberty to give examples?

Georgie Baker

53:40

shoo. So I saw that that question popped up and I thought, oh, I'll get out my sample interview document questions. So they're all about they're all very open questions. They're not closed questions. They're not trying to catch you out. And they are looking for you to present your best your best bits basically. And the best answers to those questions we're looking for, for ticks rather than negative marking, in a sense with competency questions and strength based questions. So if I'm looking at communicating and influencing as a success behaviour, I'm going to be asking you, you know, tell tell me about or tell us because it's a panel at least three, about a time when you worked, work to deliver a difficult message and how you handled it. So that sort of question can apply to you in work and any experience that you might you might have in work or in internships, but also like the personal life, whether you're University in societies or you know, with your tutor at university, another sort of question is given example. So give an example of when you've delivered a high quality cost effective service, again, might allude to some sort of volunteering work that you're involved in. What else? I'm having a look and seeing some some generic ones here. Tell us about a time when you promoted diversity inclusion. How do you motivate your team so you can change that and talk about perhaps a group, group led piece of work that you had at university and talk about that. So they're very open ended questions, and they're looking for you to tick boxes rather than cross boxes. And it's worth noting that there may also be follow up questions for the panellists to probe and answer that enable them to tick a box rather than cross the box. So follow up questions are a good thing.

Nasima Bashar

55:39

Perfect. Thank you. And if I just ask one final wrap up questions to each of the panellists? So Tina, if I start with you, if you were a student in the audience today, who was looking to work within the government and policymaking? What advice would you have wanted to hear?

Thines Ganeshamoorthy

55:55

Yeah, I'd say, Be curious and stay curious. I think one of the things about policy is that there it is about delivering real world outcomes. And it's about being curious about what's already happening, and curious about what people want, and being inventive. So I think, you know, staying curious, being inquisitive, asking lots of questions, I think that's a really key part of being a policy official and delivering the best recommendations to our ministers, because we're not just trying to give what we think they want to hear. But we're trying to give the best recommendations of what we think the best solution is. And that involves being curious and being creative. So that's what I'd say. 

Nasima Bashar

56:31

Perfect. Thank you. And if we go to my team, would you like me to repeat the question at all?

Martijn Breden

56:37

No, I mean, that's absolutely fine. I think that is really important. One, don't be afraid to ask questions get involved, even if you you might already know the answer to your question asked it anyway, it is really about developing those relationships as well. So even if they're silly questions, even if you might already know the answer, just see it as a way in C it to get that conversation started as well. And really start building those relationships is really can Yeah, really be? Or Yeah, a lot of people actually got involved in the work and really put on the blinders and tried to get that piece of work finished and then forgot that they work in a team that they work with a lot of other people adopt, either would be able to help them as well. Yeah, or generally, that would just be more helpful to to serve as a sounding board. And yeah, so I think Yeah, does don't lose track of your your team. Be be aware of that as well. But generally, don't be afraid to ask questions and get involved.

Nasima Bashar

57:45

Thank you. If I can just ask Georgie, the same question. What advice would you have wanted to hear being in the audience today? Okay.

Georgie Baker

57:58

Contrary to perhaps the other three on the call, don't think that fast removes everything. I know that they probably don't think that either after having a few tries at it. There are other routes into civil service. And I think someone asked or a couple of people asked what sort of grades are appropriate for someone with a degree and someone with the perhaps a Master's, I'm just going to highlight that the the higher executive officer or senior executive officer, in some departments, they're banded together, but that's sort of what you're looking for. And then not to not to promote the UCL alumni community, online community, that use it, use it, as well as LinkedIn, you've got a wealth of other other UCL alumni who work in different sectors, not least government and public service, who graduated recently or a long time ago, who are there to be reached out to coach through through application queries, even mentors, and I would reach out to that community as they are. We are sort of just drops in the ocean in that community. And just here tonight, but there are so many other people that I recommend that you reach out to and connect with.

Nasima Bashar

59:12

Brilliant, thank you. And, Andrea, would you like to add anything to what the other panellists said?

Andrei Skorobogatov

59:17

I would echo entirely what everyone else has said. The fast stream is is is pretty cool. But it's definitely not the be all end all the loads of jobs in civil service. There's loads of jobs in the public sector outside the soul servers, they be they graduate or not graduate jobs. I would also add to what Georgia said that properly aiming for higher executive or senior executive or maybe even just executive officer depending on kind of where you pitch yourself, depending on kind of Realistically speaking, look at the success profiles and assess where you are against them. And what other experience you've got. is again, it's a lottery just kind of go for it wasn't a lottery. There's it's sort skill based lottery. But there isn't that there is a there is a certainly luck component and then just kind of go for it. Don't be afraid of reaching out again, when people have said read read like, I mean, there's loads of kind of think tanks. There's events, there's try and talk to people kind of, I daresay show interest but also kind of genuinely reflect on your career. And I know it's really challenging when you're kind of coming out University, and particularly if you've never had a job before. But try and think about how do you pitch yourself. And that's where those Google connections where the GA was referring to, and others were referring to are massively helpful.

Nasima Bashar

1:00:44

Perfect. Thank you ever so much. Thank you to all of our panellists for their perspective. Thank you very much for your time, everyone. Okay, thank

Jo Budd

1:00:54

you so much for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed this and took something away from the discussion, whether that's how you present yourself and your work with confidence, how to reach out to other professionals on LinkedIn or other social media platforms, or what you'll need to be successful if you're applying for the civil service. I hope that you now have a few handy tips to help you in taking the next steps you need to reach your career goals. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you again on the UCL careers podcast.