UCL Minds


Transcript: Episode 13

How will our children recover from lockdown?


children, ucl, people, families, mental health, affected, parents, school, education, programmes, important, support, lockdown, child, teacher, home, impact, learning, real


Lee Hudson, Amelia Roberts, Shafina Vohra, Vivienne Parry


Vivienne Parry  00:09

Hello, and welcome to Coronavirus the whole story. I'm Vivienne Parry. And once upon a time I was a student here at UCL. Today I'm a writer, broadcaster, and the lucky person that gets to host this UCL Minds podcast. I've been talking to some of the amazing UCL community using their skills and expertise to understand Coronavirus and to try and combat its impact. Over the last three months. I've spoken to psychologists, engineers and historians to name just a few of the dizzying array of experts This place has on hand about every possible aspect of the pandemic from the best way to make them ask to how to map the spread of the virus to how to build life saving technology. You can hear all 12 of our previous episodes wherever you found this one.

My guests this week are an education scholar, a paediatrician, and a teacher. And as you might have guessed, our topic of discussion is children and how they've been affected by Coronavirus. My first guest is Dr. Lee Hudson, who's a clinical associate professor and honoree consultant general paediatrician in the GOSH UCL Institute of Child Health. He specialises in teen health, especially their mental health with an interest in eating disorders. I'm also joined by Dr. Amelia Roberts, a principal teaching fellow in the Iowa who leads on the knowledge exchange programmes swirl, which stands for supporting well being emotional regulation and learning and whose research helps create learning that's more accessible and inclusive. My third guest this week is Shafina Vohra and we've been debating whether to let her in because she's a PhD student at Imperial but we are going to let her onto this podcast because she is an Iowa alumna. She's also a psychology teacher and faculty leader and she is researching education through boundary objects. Perhaps you'll tell us about that a bit later. I'm going to start though with Lee, can you outline the ways that lockdown has impacted children and young people?


Lee Hudson  02:12

Sure. So I think the first thing to do is to start with a contrast of how the infection itself has affected children and young people. We've got enough data now and experience to know that while some children do get on well, with COVID, the vast majority of children actually do not seem to be affected at all. And so I think it's it's interesting to reflect as an age group compared to other age groups, that the major impact that COVID is likely to have is on mental health and also broader aspects of their health. Obviously, the pandemics been around for around six months internationally now and in Europe for three months. And the data is not entirely clear. The data we have is mostly cross sectional. So at one point in time, but what seems To be clear from different settings in the world, including some reports have come out from the UK, it seems to be the younger children. So the four to 10 year olds do seem to be affected more, and they seem to be affected in multiple ways, with emotional difficulties, more unhappy and more worried. There's also some evidence that their parents are affected as well. And of course, people live in systems and existing systems. And so those things can can be difficult for for both ages. Interestingly, teenagers in at least in one study from Oxford University, the CO space study shows that teenagers actually probably haven't done as badly. You could speculate about why that might be. They're not in school at the moment and the pressures that are around when you're 15 and 16. So it's the younger children that have really been affected, that slightly older 16 to 24 year olds, that they seem to been affected by anxiety as well and that that's a big problem from the data we have. So I think over We're all it's going to be mental health. And it's going to be things like the way that the economy and the way that lack of education is going to affect this generation. And that's what I'm really worried about. So how


Vivienne Parry  04:11

about physical health? Because a lot of children have literally had to be stuck inside for a very long time. Are we worried about the consequences of not having enough exercise for children because exercise isn't just something that they, you know, it's a nice to have, it's actually very important developmentally as well, isn't it?


Lee Hudson  04:34

Yeah, absolutely. So this, you know, the idea that you can separate the body and the mind you know, that I think most people now realise that that that's not how it works. And you know, exercise and physical activity and getting out and about is, is really quite important for mental health as well as physical health and they play off each other. I mean, thankfully, we are coming out of lockdown now and so the period of time has been quite short. But certainly, you know, children, young people definitely have had less physical activity that will affect their mental health, it almost certainly will affected a significant proportion of children, young people's BMI, their, their, their body weight and their health over time. And we know that, you know, cumulative, gaining weight in children in a bad way, sets people off on a on a trajectory. So it's likely that that has affected things. I mean, one of the really interesting things about eating that's come out of the UK study, which is a study that has been joint between UCL and imperial looking at 16 to 24 year olds, is that a significant number of young people have been overeating, as they would describe it in response to stress. So as well as the reduction in physical activity, we're also likely to see some impact on the way that people have been eating in response to stress and emotions which we know is quite common in In that in with with those emotions,


Vivienne Parry  06:02

the fact that you haven't been able to get flour for a very long time because everybody was doing home baking should probably tell you that there's that flair had to return into cakes and biscuits which had to be eaten by somebody. So this, there's been a lot of eating that's going on. And of course for little children meeting other children is actually part of their social development, and also part of them their brains development and what they need to do that.


Lee Hudson  06:33

Yeah, absolutely. When people are often critical of social media, you know, like all things social media and the internet use has got some very bad problems, but it's also very good one. So I think we are looking at children, young people are lucky if you could use that word to be in a generation where at least we are networked and we can still see and talk to friends and they can still see and talk to their schools in some cases. Whereas if this had happened 1015 years ago, would have been very different. But absolutely, there's no, you know, there's no compensation for not seeing children not seeing each other. And you know, I've got three young children myself. And as they've, some of them, some of them have gone back to school and they've been interacting with their peers more directly, you can visibly see the impact that's had upon them.


Vivienne Parry  07:19

So let's look at the future now. Now that lockdown is ending. I mean, I know that parents are praying in the mall, most parents are praying to get their children back to school in September. But what kind of impact do you think the past few months could have on children in the long term health wise? And I think


Lee Hudson  07:39

it's going to be it's going to differ by different groups of children really. You know, I mean, some children will have probably managed to get through this short period of time had some home education, they've had potentially a bit more relaxed time, maybe families have actually spent more time together in lockdown. So I don't think we can say it's all good. in green, however, there are certain groups of children I do worry about. And, you know, I think a lot of people have commented on the fact that certain, you know, socio economic groups of children and families where we knew that in education is important, who may not have been accessing education online. Children don't have may not have had laptops or technology to be able to do that sort of thing. So I think there are certain groups and my real big worry is that the poverty gap that was there already, may have been affected significantly. And so that will have almost certainly impact on certain groups of children more than others. I mean, the other uncertainty, of course, is we don't really know where we're going with COVID. I'm trying to be optimistic. So I think we all should be but we're far from out of it still. And we all hope that children will go back in September and I believe, sincerely that children should go back to school in September, on balance for their well being. But you know, we may well be in this for The long haul. And so those children have already talked about and ultimately maybe all children will continue to be affected as this goes on.


Vivienne Parry  09:09

And it's interesting. I say lots of parents are desperate to get their children back to school. But there's a the last poll that I saw 25% of parents did not intend to send their children back to school in September. That's quite a large number of parents.


Lee Hudson  09:25

It is a large number. And I think this will be one of the challenges. I mean, clearly, the message about the danger of Coronavirus and the importance of lockdown has gone through effectively in lots of ways. And so that's changed the way that people think about it. I mean, certainly, as someone who is a parent and certainly looks after children and so and also has looked after a significant proportion of the children who've had the post inflammatory condition with COVID and looked up to children on the COVID Ward, the diet as like I said earlier, the direct impact of the virus is very low. So, on balance, you know, children should be in school and some of them will get two children will get Coronavirus, and there's no evidence that they spread it more but some of them will get Coronavirus. So you can understand why some families are worried about the risk of their children or potentially the risk that they will carry Coronavirus back to their own families at home. So it's not a straightforward argument. But I would say as a, you know, on all three of those as someone who's interested in epidemiology, Child Health, he looks after children and has my own children, I would say on balance there, and life is about risk. And we often have to make balanced judgments about risk for our children. Even every time you get a child put a child into a car, you're making a risk judgement about you might get into a car crash and a significant more. greater number of children have died in car crashes or road traffic accidents and have died from COVID. So we still will be using cars. So there is a risk issue but that's very difficult and really hard for families. I don't think anyone should condemn them on that. at all, but we do I do worry about the long term effects that will have sociable.


Vivienne Parry  11:05

Thank you very much have a running theme actually across this whole podcast series has been exploring how lockdown as affected different groups of people in different ways. And Lee's already mentioned this with children, Amelia, which groups of children have been most impacted by lockdown and in what ways?


Amelia Roberts  11:25

Yes, that's a great question. I mean, if if we look at some of the OECD data, that's the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. They are most concerned about children in poverty, children with mental health difficulties or whose families have mental health issues. They are worried about children with special educational needs or children who are in detention or children who are in refugee scenarios. So what we're really looking at is that any child who's in a situation of disadvantage is likely to be more affected by COVID-19. And the Southern trust, did a report looking at social mobility in COVID-19. And some areas of real concern or the widening attainment gap in early years. And there's lots of reasons for that. But we know that building relationships with younger children socialisation skills and also vocabulary and language skills have a an ongoing impact on their school attainment and their lifelong chances. We also know that a third of families This is reported also whether sudden, a third of families don't have a separate computer for children, which means that those children aren't going to be able to access learning in the same way. And from the same report. We also know that schools in richer areas, which in the UK is defined by children being on free school meals or not being on free school meals. The gap between schools that are able to broadcast lessons to children is actually 47% in rich areas and only 34% in poor areas, and the schools in the poor areas, only about half of those are accepting work remotely from children compared to 75% in more affluent areas. So we're absolutely seeing an impact in terms of more vulnerable people and less vulnerable people being affected disproportionately by COVID-19. And I just want to flag up something else. But in terms of safeguarding and young people's mental health, we know that the organisation refuge that helps families who have experienced domestic violence. We know that there has been a 700% increase in calls and a similar picture for the NSPCC, ChildLine. Their costs have gone up 300% from 545 to 2274.



That is really scary. Isn't it? Really scary.


Amelia Roberts  13:54

It really is. So one of the issues that I think is really important to think about is that Firstly, Some children very sadly, their homes are not a particularly safe place to be. So when a child is trapped in a home environment that is dangerous, or very, very stressful, then the impact of long term stress on their mental health is significantly problematic. And that's one reason why moving children back into school really is a good idea for many, many young people.


Vivienne Parry  14:27

The pressures that have been put on parents, guardians and carers during the lockdown has been absolutely immense. If you particularly if you don't have much space, you're sharing with other people, several other families even in some cases. This is a huge pressure that parents know that they are facing these difficulties, but there's very little that they can do about them in order to help their children which must be a terrible feeling.


Amelia Roberts  15:00

I think it's been incredibly tough on families. I mean, typically families had two days of notice before lockdown. And so whatever a family was juggling, whether it was work or newly working from home, suddenly having to homeschool as well, I think has been incredibly challenging. And many parents have been really worried about their children falling back in terms of education. And I think one of the messages that's really important to give is that many children will pick up on their learning when they go back into school. So we have concepts such as neuroplasticity, which talks about how the brain is very adaptable. And so for many children, when they go back into school, though, they will be able to pick up on their learning and pick up on their social skills. But here again, we have that gap between the advantage and the disadvantage. So the child that was already vulnerable already falling behind the impact on their confidence when they go back into school. Could be a significant factor. But I do think it's important to say that it's not all doom and gloom for parents. So one of our professors at the Institute of Education, Gemma moss has talked about a real increase in love of reading. There are other reports of children who are made very anxious by maths, being able to really get to grips with numerical concepts by using real life learning. You've got children with autism, and this comes from Dr. Georgia Papadopoulos research children with autism whose anxiety may actually be decreased because they're not having to confront the outside world and conform to those expectations. Also, some people are reporting that relationship building has become stronger. So the picture isn't all black and white, we have to think of a nuanced picture in respect of COVID-19.


Vivienne Parry  16:51

And for those children that experienced bullying school, this has been a welcome release.


Amelia Roberts  16:57

Yes, I'll tell you why. I'm telling to tape. This is again from the OECD. But they have said that there's been a rise in cyber bullying. Ah, yeah. So again, we've got a mixed picture. But you are absolutely right. For some children who found school really difficult. The opportunity to take a break, build up learning in a different kind of way has been really powerful. And I think it's important to say that any work that parents have done with children that have developed their vocabulary and their all recei and their critical thinking, and their love of learning through projects and things that the whole family can get engaged in, that actually will stand children in very good stead and I'm particularly referencing Professor Julie Carol's research on the value of vocabulary and, and oversee in terms of attainment and lifelong chances and in fact, mental health and well being.


Vivienne Parry  17:50

And it's particularly difficult than for the children of refugee families whose first language is not English. Whether children are taught in English, and they don't have the skills to be able to help their children. I mean, I know some of us will, I will joke about, try to help our children with maths and actually being far with the subject but, but it's a real fear and concern for people who have anxieties about their own level of education, and how little they are able to help their children because they don't understand what they're doing.


Amelia Roberts  18:30

Yes, you're absolutely right. And a piece of research came out today from I believe, the University of Sussex that looked at parental education as well as poverty in terms of the amount of education that children are getting at home. So I do think parental confidence in maths as you say, and in fact, in any subject area, I think that's absolutely a factor. And it takes us back to the widening of the gap around disadvantage. I have something reassuring, though. For parents who speak who don't speak English at home. And that's great work from Dr. Roberta Phillippi at the intuitive education who talks about the impact on the brain of multi linguistic families. So if you are engaging your children in the love of learning the excitement around ideas and orsi, and vocabulary, and vocabulary in your own language, then that still puts them in a very good place. So it doesn't have to be English in order to be really great learning for children.


Vivienne Parry  19:33

Finally, and briefly, if you would, how will the transition for these families out of lockdown be different?


Amelia Roberts  19:43

I think transition is immensely important. So I just want to focus on schools, and it's all about working collaboratively with children and families. So take the child with autism who comes back and find the scent of the hand gel. Really, really difficult. If that child is shouted at them, they are going to develop negative beliefs about school. And real has a real impact on their self confidence. And we'll break the relationship between school and family. If however, the school has a conversation with the child and the family, and they test out different hand gels, or they think about whether they could put the hand gel into a plate for the child or whether they could use wet wipes instead. All of that will make a difference. So it's not just a black and white picture. It's how that transition back is managed. Is it managed with care? Is it managed with compassion? And is it managed with collaboration?


Vivienne Parry  20:34

fascinating stuff. So you're listening to Coronavirus the whole story a podcast brought to you by UCL Minds and if there's a question about Coronavirus, you'd like our researchers to answer you can email us at minds@ucl.ac.uk or tweet at to UCL. And we'd also really appreciate it if you could complete our little survey which can be found on the UCL Minds website if you haven't had a chance to do so yet. So the schools are and have been reopening, but I hate to tell everybody it's nearly time for the summer holidays. Safina What does this term look like for you and your students?


Amelia Roberts  21:16

How much time have we got?



As much as we'd want to Safina?


Shafina Vohra  21:23

It's been it's been a lot of I think realisation I'm sure many parents, teachers and educators and students would agree. I think there's been a, you know, I'm going to echo what Lee and Amelia have just said, it's not so black and white. You know, there's been huge disparity across the country, as we know, between those who have access to say, for example, technology, remote learning, whether it's teachers, whether it's students, you know, there's been lots going on in the background that schools are trying to facilitate. You know, we initially when lockdown happened, I think and I teach teenagers, I teach a levels So I can speak for that age group. I think some of them are quite sort of, oh, wow, don't have to wake up early anymore. I don't have to take the train, you know, I'm not going to get those detentions and things like that. And they started gaming and, you know, really taking advantage of the fact that they didn't have to be in this formal structured environment, but as its as its continued, and we've gone back to school, with social distancing and plays, you just see the smiles on their faces. I mean, I'm having kids across the corridor, I don't to say high knees, high knees, and it's just, it's wonderful to see you can see you can just see that they want to be back you know, they want that structure. They want that social interaction they want to be cared for. And I teach in an in a London School where you know, there is there there are a range of different types of children that we have some obviously from disadvantaged families and, and and echoing exactly as what's been discussed already. It is those that have been hardest hit. Now we are a tech school so you know, our principal has delivered last tops and dongles to families that don't have access to it, which I think has been wonderful. But I think it's a bit more deeper than that as well, in terms of, are these kids ready to take this on? How can they work out how to learn on their own? You know, and I think, I think that becomes a question for, are we developing resilience in our young people? Are we making them resourceful and creative about how to manage change? Now, this is a massive, massive situation that we're all going through, we've not been through anything like this. And I think I think an education level, we need to have these kinds of very real conversations about how do we really manage change, how can we be resourceful in in these kinds of situations? And you know, I've seen some of my some of my students have really flourished in this, you know, they're, they're watching all these TED talks and all these wonderful documentaries and asking me some really high level university level questions whilst others haven't done anything for weeks. So you know, we've had had to ring her we've got a very strong pastoral You know, it's it's a bit of a gentle nudge rather than a push in what you're doing your work, it's mobile, what's going on? How can I support? You know, can you get this much into me? Rather than all of it? You know, how can I help you to catch up kind of thing?


Vivienne Parry  24:12

How are you preparing for the next academic year, which is, you know, coming across, they're coming at us very soon.


Shafina Vohra  24:21

So we have, obviously, social distancing things are in place already, in terms of the physical aspect in terms of the learning aspect. We're already thinking about how to how to embed the government's called catch up, you know, how are we going to close those gaps that have that have happened with some learners? How are we going to make sure that it's not too stressful, and I think for most of us is going to be engagement, you know, getting getting the happiness back into the classroom, the love of learning back and I think that is where the real challenges because some of them have really just switched off. And so I think we've got contingency plans in place, should social distancing be required for the budget? bubbling the bubble side of things. But we've also looking at how do we go back as much as possible to normality and having some structure back and having conversations with our learners. You know, what was it like what was this six months of your life really like? And so we're preparing for it at many different levels at both mental health as I think is going to be the biggest one, but also a very gentle, gentle sort of come back to structure and this is the classroom environment and the socialisation aspect I think is going to be hugely important going forward. So we've got plans in place to do that.


Vivienne Parry  25:33

So you teach a levels, how are you dealing with the anxiety that teenagers are feeling about exams being cancelled, and their prospects for university looking, you know, really very insecure at the moment?


Shafina Vohra  25:51

That's a really good question. And and that's one that I've been actually trying to address for a while now. So my youth or teens I have, I have, you know, drop in courts. with them on Microsoft Teams, they literally say Miss Can we just have a catch up? And you know, some of them have one of them's taking a job at Sainsbury's to keep himself busy. The others are reading and doing things like that. And I've said to them, Look, we have, you will go to university now I'm trying to be as positive as possible, you will go to university. We don't know what the grades are going to look like when they come out in August because obviously, there's been discussion already about how the predicted grades and the ranking has happened. But for some of them, I think they've just come to realise that you know what, we'll just deal with it on results day. Some of them are quite mature in that sense that thinking, well, this is this is a very new to situations that nobody has really prepared for. So we can only expect the best and some are really hopeful and saying well, you know, I'm going to get something I'm really going to do it because I know I've done my absolute best this entire two years and I've got everything behind me. And the anxiety is very real, very, very real. And I will I will again say what Lee was saying with the obesity you know they are binge eating. They are watching Netflix to all hours, their sleep routines have gone out the window and I think this is their response to being to the uncertainty and the anxiety, they don't quite know how to manage this. So they are resorting to to eating watching television quite a lot. And so I'm trying to push to watch what some good stuff watch this watch that, you know, sort of directing them to something a little bit less stressful if you like. And, and as I said, I think these this group, the current year 13th, when they start their university programmes, be it remotely or face to face. I think the universities will need to really look at how to nurture them into their programmes. I don't think it's going to be one of those. Here we go lecture one and and off you go. I think there needs to be some sort of awareness and programme in place to help these learners back into education in general. And that would be that would be something really helpful for them.


Vivienne Parry  27:53

So Shafilea you've you've bought a statue to the war, the end of the programme and What I wanted to do to conclude this episode is acknowledge some research from a previous podcast guest Daisy fan Court, which showed that people, young people are more anxious and stressed about the future than adults are. So I, I want to ask you, all three of you now, what do you think we and our listeners who are looking after children can do to help them support young people through this time? Let's start with you.


Lee Hudson  28:28

So I would say recognising that we'd like we did before COVID that, you know, when people got extreme anxiety and low mood, that's just not normal being a teenager, and that's not normal, how you would respond to COVID. I think it's really important that we have the structures in place, and that families in young people can come forward to get professional help for their mental health. That's going to be so critical. We knew that the provision of care for mental health was was not adequate before and we're going to need more events. And I think the last thing I would say really, you know, as emotive as it might sound as a generation, children and young people have given up loads in COVID. And potentially, as we've talked about, that's going to have a big impact on their futures. And we've done that to children in a sense because of what we had to do in the national interest. So it is now profoundly in the national interest for us to emphasise the importance of basically providing more children and young people need as a country so we can get things back on track for them.


Vivienne Parry  29:34

Yes, it's curious, isn't it that children and young people are in some ways the least affected but the most affected? I mean, they


Lee Hudson  29:42

are they given up the most? And I think when we look back on this, it'll be those quiet voices, you know, children, young people who have got quieter voices, because, you know, they don't have the option to talk as much as, as adults do. And the elderly in care homes. You know, it's been the quiet voices that we will be one of the most powerful and hard stories to read and learn about I think when this is all over,


Vivienne Parry  30:06

indeed, one final point from you, you've talked about mental health services really not being up to scratch, you know before Coronavirus hit. There'll be a lot of parents out there who will be worrying about the mental health of their children who recognise that they need professional help. How on earth do they go about getting it at the moment?


Lee Hudson  30:30

Well, there'll be the usual route, I mean, the routes into are still there. So, you know, I mean, again, that varies from place to place, and they'll still be the roots of being able to contact your GP. If they were already under a hospital that hospital can find ways through for them and access to local child and adolescent mental health services, you know, that they will all be there and accessible. I think it's important to remember that, you know, we know that presentation to healthcare services for all age groups, but particularly children has gone down significantly. COVID so it's important that that families know that those services are actually still there for them. And the bigger picture is making sure that they're sustainable at a country level. And that, you know, we they're invested in and that training is put in place. So I think though, the processes haven't changed, and we'll still stay the same, the only thing might be affected, of course, was at the NHS long term plan, talked about embedding mental health screening and early interventions within schools. And for me, you know, that's a big worry, because that was where a lot of the emphasis to improve mental health delivery for children, young people was going to go. And what we've just been talking about with children not being in school and the potential for that not to be back on track and lots of things to catch up on. It still needs to be part of the focus, the mental health and well being as part of the whole spectrum of what was going to happen before.


Vivienne Parry  31:53

Amelia, what's your thoughts about this? How do we support young people through this time?


Amelia Roberts  31:59

Yes, I'm so To ask that question on our website, which is the UCL Centre for inclusive education, we have got a raft of resources that we've been collating over the last three months, including support on mental health support on homeschooling, and support for transitioned. And we cover everything from social stories for children with autism, to visual timetables, to apps around mental health. So it's a wealth of resources, and they are all free to download. Additionally, so interesting that Lee mentioned back on track, because we've just received funding from the higher education Innovation Fund to do some research into how we can support schools with helping children particularly vulnerable children to get back on track is actually called back on track. And part of that research will be to produce a document that will be free to download to support children and families and schools in managing that transition back to education, thinking very much about well being as well as attainment.


Vivienne Parry  33:00

Thank you Safina you're absolutely at the coalface you're in contact with young people every day. What can their parents and carers do to help them?


Shafina Vohra  33:13

Well, I think I think at school level, we already know schools do have these systems in place already with safeguarding and there's always a safeguarding officer delegated one at school. And I think, you know, I think they are going to have to face the significant impact of this and be the port of call to direct them to further things like social services and things but what Amelia just mentioned about the wealth of resources that you see out there offering I think that's what schools are going to look to particularly those who don't have much experience or or don't know where to look for support. So I think it's going to be for parents to contact schools as they have been doing, but I think the offering from universities and mental health specialists like like some UCL offering will be very, very useful because some of them Literally asking, Where do I go? Who do I ask and there being sort of ping pong from one place to another often? So I think, I think a big collaboration kind of way forward would be really, really good for parents, teachers and students alike to know that there is this big app place that you can go to, and there'll be lots of support available. My worry is the sustainability of it. As we know, there's been such a huge increase in in reports from from various different organisations on on children and their welfare. So I think it's about how we can efficiently effectively sort of reduce the time it takes for people to get support, I think that's going to be the key thing, rather than so that they don't get lost into the into the numbers game in the system. And I think it's going to have direct, it's going to require quite a strong, clear strategy going forward. And is


Vivienne Parry  34:49

there anything particular that you've seen, particular parents doing? That's been really helpful, I want to end on a note of positivity here.


Shafina Vohra  35:00

I think parents have been parents, the ones I've at least spoken to and in my college have been really positive. They're they're, you know, they're taking on all the support that the school is offering, and where where there is things that that we can offer externally with Oh, look, I will guide them to certain databases, certain information things, and is keeping that communication going. I think that is the key thing that how are we communicating with parents about their children, and often, they want to help but they don't know where to look. So I think having a very strong communication with the parental community at large is going to be I think, a very positive way forward.


Vivienne Parry  35:36

Thank you so much. And thank you, all of you, because it's been such an interesting discussion and really young people. It's such a cliche, but also true young people are our future. And I think we owe them as you say, Lee, an enormous amount of the moment. You've been listening to Coronavirus the whole story. This episode was presented by myself in Paris. Produced by UCL with support from the UCL Health of the Public and UCL Grand Challenges and edited by the splendid Cerys Bradley. Our guests today were Dr. Lee Hudson, Dr. Amelia Roberts and Shafina Vohra. If you'd like to hear more of these podcasts and UCL Minds, of course, you would subscribe wherever you download your podcasts or visit ucl.ac.uk forward slash Coronavirus. whilst you're there. Don't forget that survey. This podcast is brought to you by UCL Minds, bringing together UCL knowledge, insights and expertise through events, digital content and activities open to everyone. Hope to be with you again soon.

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