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If you're interested in pursuing journalism as a career, or simply want to find out more, this is the episode for you.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
journalism, people, question, UCL, investigation, story, job, email, journalist, important, application, pitch, applying, skills, good, editors
SPEAKERS
Jo Budd, Colm Fallon, Maaria Mahmood, Tommy Walters, Ben Kelly, Richard Watson, Lucy Dyer
Jo Budd 00:06
Hi there, everyone. My name is Jo Budd. I'm a careers consultant here at UCL careers. Today's video brings you a q&a panel session on the topic of journalism recorded during our Media themed week, you will hear from industry professionals working at the BBC, the Independent, PBS America and News Associates answering questions from our current UCL students, you will hear their opinions on how to enter the sector, the value of undertaking masters study, how to stand out in your applications and the importance of building relationships and how to go about it. So let's get into it.
Colm Fallon 00:43
So I'll make a bit of a beginning. First of all, say hi, hello, my name is Colm. I'm a Careers Consultant in UCL careers. But my job here today is actually just to give you a warm welcome. So a warm welcome from me to you. We have a lot of spotlights on different areas. And this one is on journalism. And I am delighted by our guests that we have today I'm actually quite excited. But what I'm not going to do is because this is not a panel event, it's a q&a session purposely constructed purposely named as well. It's not a panel interview where you're going to hear a lot from me at all, or nor am I going to give long introductions. And I'm going to hand over to my colleague Maaria, who will hopefully be ready to take the first question. Is that right, Maaria?
Maaria Mahmood 01:23
I am thanks, Colm. Welcome once again to our speakers and to our students. I'm Maaria from UCL Careers and I coordinate our skills programme. Without further ado, I'm gonna go straight into the first questions, because I know how tight we are for time. So here we are, as I shout out the questions to you, I will paste them into the chat box. So the first question is, how do you start in journalism when you don't have a background in it? Specifically, if I could hand over to Lucy for that one?
Lucy Dyer 01:50
Hello, yes. This is a question I get all the time actually. And it really doesn't matter. If you don't have a degree or qualification in journalism yet. I would say there's one really easy thing to do. While you're all still at uni, which is get involved in student media. Student media is great. I know you've got a variety of student publications at UCL one being Pi, you've got the Tab, and I think you've got one called Savage, which is an arts and culture one. So definitely get involved in student media. And then you can start pitching to other publications. So I'd be aware that you know, we've not loads of experience, you're probably not going to start getting your work published in The Times and The New York Times quite yet. But there are loads of online publications that accept pitches from sort of journalists with less experience, I can share a link in the in the chat in a minute to some recommendations that I have. And then coming along to events like this going to lots of free workshops. But the most important thing, if you know for sure, that journalism is for you is there's a qualification called the NCTJ. It stands for the National Council for the training of journalists. It's actually what we teach here at News associates. But it's known as a sort of industry standard qualification, teaches you everything from sort of shorthand and media law, to mobile journalism, digital journalism, SEO, data journalism, all that jazz. You don't have to do as part of your degree, you can do it as sort of a 22 week Fast Track course, a part time course alongside other work. I can talk about questions about the NCTJ and news associates. And what we do maybe if you feel free to sort of connect with me on LinkedIn, and Twitter and stuff like that, just in case, I'm taking too long answering this question. But if you know for sure it's for you, I'd really look up the NCTJ qualification.
Maaria Mahmood 03:31
Thanks, Lucy. Thanks so much. Would anyone like to add or build on that question? Before we move on?
Tommy Walters 03:38
I can add a little thing. Hi, everybody. I'm Tommy, I was a UCL alumni in 2018. So I feel how you feel. And I would say two things to this. The first one is your ideas will get you stories, and it'll get your attention in papers and it'll get you jobs. If you come to people with pitches. If you write pitches in your cover letters or you approach people and give them a very quick elevator pitch on a story that you're really interested in covering and you say, Oh, look, it would be great in your publication, then you're immediately going to get attention. If you offer your help. Generally, people aren't really going to give you attention, but they want ideas. editors are always looking for stories. So that's the first thing. The other thing is I would say your niche. Um, I was, I studied I did a Master's here in the US at Columbia and I there are a lot of people who didn't have any journalism background. But let's say they had spent 10 years as a teacher, and now they're education reporters or they there were people who spent time as a personal trainer and now they are bloggers on you know fitness and health. So journalism is about finding your niche finding your you know your specific angle and using that experience to write about it and people will be interested when you pitch those stories.
Maaria Mahmood 05:12
Thanks Tommy, thanks very much. Moving on to the next question. When finding work placements internships, is it worth emailing organisations editors directly in addition to applying for advertise schemes or programmes? Richard, would you like to take that one first?
Richard Watson 05:27
Yeah. And it's Richard Watson from Newsnight here and picking up on the last question. And this one in turn, really, this business is all about ideas, essentially. So feel free to email, correspondence producers, editors, with your ideas, and you will live or die on the quality of the ideas in this business. There is just picking a last point there is no ideal background for a journalist. It's more of a state of mind, really, I mean, I did I did a master's in science at UCL. And it's currently in geology, actually. So it was quite a handbrake turn reads for me to go into journalism. The way I did it was to start working for tiny, tiny magazines, reporting on geological issues, engineering issues. And from then I went to cover first Gulf War, and then came back with big portfolio photographs, and got into the BBC as that. So there's no ideal routes into journalism, I'd say, consider doing a Masters, there are a couple of very good courses that city and Cardiff it's probably worth doing one of those perhaps, but basic, the basic currency of journalism is ideas. And that comes with experience. But you need to be curious, you need to be open to ideas, you need to build contacts. And if you do that, and try and find a mentor as well, to help you out.
Maaria Mahmood 06:49
Thanks, Richard, Would anyone like to add to that one, before we move on,
Lucy Dyer 06:52
I would probably just say there's never any harm in sort of reaching out to other people. But I would also say if you're applying for a specific internship, or job or work placement, that's being advertised, just make sure you do what it says to do in the application. So we you know, for example, at the minute we're hiring here, and it says very clearly who to email for the job. And people keep emailing me. And I'm actually not the person they should be emailing. And it's a little bit like, oh, we're hiring you for a job. And you've not even actually read the job advert properly. So I think if you're reaching out in other ways, it's fine to sort of, sort of test the waters. But make sure if you're applying for something specific to do, what they tell you to do, in the specific application otherwise it just looks like you've not bothered to read it, it would be My top tip. And also, if you are looking for work placements, try and find the name of a specific person, try to not just email sort of news desk at so and so to whom it may concern. Because one, it's probably going to get lost these people get so many emails, but two it's not actually hard to find the name of the right person. And I'm way more happier to reply to an email that says, Hi, Lucy directed to me. So I'd say yeah make sure you find the name and email address of the best person to contact.
Maaria Mahmood 08:08
Thanks, Lucy. Thanks very much. Okay, so the next question is, where are the best places to look for entry level jobs in journalism? Ben, would you like to take lead on this one?
Ben Kelly 08:19
Yeah, sure. I mean, it's, it's pretty basic. But LinkedIn is a great resource that you can use, not just for finding jobs, but for networking and for finding some of those names and faces that you'll want to reach out to. I find Twitter and LinkedIn both great for connecting full of journalists full of people who are willing to be contacted, like Lucy said, no one's ever gonna say no to a personalised email on a request. And yeah, in terms of jobs on, there are just so many jobs, on LinkedIn, at various entry levels. And the great thing about the current time is that you can, there's a lot of things that are obviously working from home or working remotely. So there's quite a lot more opportunity out there than just having to be, you know, in a London newsroom, although obviously, the experience is crucial. But at the moment, people are being flexible. And I find that quite good for a lot of people who are in different circumstances, I find that on there as a good way of keeping track, even when I'm happy in a job of what's going on and what's out there and what other people are looking for in the industry, what jobs they're hiring for. And what's really key is looking at those job adverts and seeing what the skills are that are required, and really setting about technical skills off. You know, I still do that, you know, if something is occurring again and again in a job requirement, and you don't really know what that is, or you're not quite good at it, work at it and figure it out or or find a way to explain how you do have those skills. So yeah, LinkedIn would be my number one choice. Get on there, get networking, build up your profile with anything and any experience you've got, maybe some of those other other sites or Ways to throw in there as well.
Maaria Mahmood 10:04
Thanks, Ben. Thanks very much. Any other views on that one before we move on?
Lucy Dyer 10:07
That's okay. I agree with everything Ben said. And there's also an organisation called Janu resources. And it's run by a girl called Gem Collins. And I know loads of people do, you know, loads of newsletters, and I'm sure they're all amazing. But Gemma sends out a weekly newsletter, and it's full of journalism jobs. And she breaks them up into from sort of entry level, first, second job, you know, experience, and it's really, really good. And she only post jobs who share their salary, or at least a salary range, which is also really important. I've just put a link to the Janu Resources website. They're amazing. They've also got loads of content on there about pitching and freelancing and networking, and anything you can imagine, I definitely recommend looking at it.
Maaria Mahmood 10:53
Thanks, Lucy, just because I'm kind of throwing these questions out there at you just how you're appearing on the screen. There's no structure to these unless the question is directed at you. So the next one, Tommy, for you. I'm in my final year for my undergraduate studies, would you recommend doing a master's in journalism or any other field?
Tommy Walters 11:14
Well, that's an interesting question, I would say, people who have done a Masters would say it's necessary and people who haven't, I would say, it isn't. So it's obviously very divided. And there's no particular route into journalism. I personally, really enjoyed my Masters, because it was an opportunity to learn video production. So to learn, you know how to shoot, they have really good resources, to really great cameras that I would just have not been able to access. Otherwise, the other great thing about masters is that you can fail, you can learn to fail, and you can screw up, and it's not going to be the end of the world. In most newsrooms, if you screw up, it will, you know, result in a formal complaint, or you might even get fired. So you'll just get shouted at by your professor if you don't hand something in on time. Whereas, you know, if you don't hand in a segment at the where I work at the PBS NewsHour, you know, it goes to air at 6pm every day, and there's no excuse for not getting in a certain video or a certain segment. So it'll give you a year to or kind of a few months of your team NCTJ to experiment. And to take a whole load of courses, take you know, courses in open source intelligence or in data journalism, things that are, you obviously can, you know, learn in your spare time there, obviously, YouTube videos for just about everything, but it'll give you a good chance to learn these new trick, you know, kind of skills, but then also build a community. And as someone was saying before, in journalism is all about networking, when you're in a pool with, you know, 100 other journalism students, it's really inspiring because you can, you know, share ideas with each other, you can pitch each other, you can hang out and go for drinks together, and at least like you're in a community, and that is a really important kind of incentivizing factor.
Maaria Mahmood 13:23
Thanks, Tommy. Thanks very much. Any other comments on that one? Before we move on?
Richard Watson 13:27
I was just gonna say, yeah, I think that that's it right? There are two routes into the business, basically, I think a Master's is quite useful to do because it gets you your skills. But it's important to say at the moment, the barrier to entry into the profession is probably lowest lowest it's ever been. Because you can keep yourself up with a camera that is vaguely broadcast quality, a microphone and a recording device, hard drive record of a radio. So it the barriers to entry are quite low. What you learn at doing a Masters obviously, or or a NCTJ course, is you learn about the law, which is pretty essential. And as I think Tommy was saying before, we don't really want to make a mistake on the job on that you want to actually try and learn that beforehand. But there are other ways in you know, you don't have to do that. And as I said before, it's all about the quality of your ideas. But if you do go in with a really, really good idea, then it's important to work with someone trustworthy, who can teach you about how to go about the journalism in the right way. And the other thing I'd say very briefly, is you, journalism is really a state of mind. So you need to expand your circle of influence of like that you need to be talking to taxi drivers, shopkeepers, friends, relatives, and you've got to have your story filter on all time, though. Just a very brief one. I got contacted by a friend she said she was the victim of a terrible racist attack. The police hadn't investigated properly. That turned into big investigation for Newsnight. So that's the kind of thing you need to do.
Lucy Dyer 14:58
Yeah I just mainly wanted to echo what what Tommy and Richard have said, Really, obviously, I'm very proud of the NCTJ. And believe it's a really great way into the industry, media law being registered as well as a real sort of tick box when you're applying for jobs. But I wanted to echo mainly what Tommy was saying about sort of networking and the amount of people that you'll meet in any course, whatever you do, not only are you meeting your cohort, you're meeting the staff that work there who are probably trained journalists, hopefully. And you're also getting the alumni of all of that course as well. I think we've got a couple of UCL alumni on this panel, and it kind of proves that and you know, we, our new associates, alumni are always happy to help whether it's off grad schemes, and that they've previously done off, they're now at the point where they're hiring, they come back to News associates trainees. So I think the networking is a really important part of doing any course that you do is that you meet so many other people.
Maaria Mahmood 15:51
Thanks, Lucy. Thanks very much. The next question is for Richard, could you share how the process of conducting investigative journalism from first choosing a topic or issue to conducting research etc is for you?
Richard Watson 16:06
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you a case study. Probably. It was the case I referred to just few months ago. So the first thing to do is identify a story that's going to make real a real difference. And the great the great beauty of this job is you have the power to change things. If you pick the right story. And you can you can flow correctly. So investigations are amazingly expensive, because they take a long time. So it's very important to select the right story. So when I was approached by the woman who said that she was the victim of racist attack, and the Met police had failed to investigate it properly. First question is well, is this story capable of making a real difference? Yes, it is, because it's clearly a racist attack. And the Met should be doing much better on that post, Stephen Lawrence murder in 93. Second story, a second thing to think about is okay, well, how do I do this. And so you need a strategy right at the beginning of investigation. So on this particular investigation, I did it for news night, I worked out straight away that the way to do it would be to look at how the police actually investigated, and then take it to a very senior former police officer to get his or her advice his in this case, about how it should have been done. So you have an objective benchmark. So you can tell so I could test how the Met did behave with how they should have behaved. And that ended up into into a bit of the investigation from the inside. And this is why I say you have the power to change things, because I'm pleased to say that as a result of that investigation, the police had to formally apologise to three women, and to reopen the case. And they've now arrested someone and Today, I'll be on News night talking about this. Today, they've actually charged someone. And that's the power of the media for you. If you've got a pitch and you've got to pitch it with some evidence, you've got to have some hard evidence to go on whether it's a confidential source, someone is telling you what's going on. Or some documentary evidence is no law is no good really pitching ideas and investigation, because the first question I would ask is, well, where's the evidence? Where's the potential evidence we're going to get you know, we're going to get you have to have a strategy of how you're going to get it, and preferably a source telling you what to do. I mean, the classic way to do investigations, is you're told off the record from a confidential source, what's going on? And then you try and stand that story up on the record by speaking to other witnesses, or getting documentary evidence.
Maaria Mahmood 18:30
Thanks, Richard. Thanks very much. Okay. Moving on to the next question. Ben, if we could head over to you for this one. Is there anything you wish someone had told you at the start of your career?
Ben Kelly 18:40
Oh, gosh, well, it wasn't that long ago. But I don't think I can remember. I suppose the real thing to learn is to always be flexible in this industry. I know obviously, some people will get into this industry wanting to do specific things like investigative stuff, or maybe they want to do video stuff, or whatever it is. But I find that the real success, particularly at the independent, are people who are coming in and not only doing a number of things themselves, ie traditional reporting, a little bit of video, a little bit of photo, but they're also speaking to myself and others on the audience team about how best to employ social media, how best to employ SEO, and the people who ask those questions and keep wanting to learn and adapt, where the industry is going and where the telling of stories is going. Or the people who are probably going to do best and have been doing best. So I would say, keep evolving with the job. Yes. Let me reformulate this. What I wish someone had told me is that journalism and media just keeps changing all the time. And you should be changing with that. You know, I mean, for example, I do a job now, which didn't exist. 10 years ago, when I graduated from UCL, barely existed five years before. It's been constantly evolving. And so yeah, always be aware of that. That's a thing.
Maaria Mahmood 20:05
Thanks, Ben. Any other comments from the other speakers before we move on?
Lucy Dyer 20:10
I suppose I say, don't be afraid to pick up the phone. It's really easy to hide behind an email. They're also really easy to delete. I know that people go on work experience, and they're really scared to pick up the phone. Because you think everyone in the newsroom is listening to you. I can promise you, they're not they are so busy with what they're doing. So please, don't be afraid to pick up the phone, you'll get so much further than you ever will with an email.
Maaria Mahmood 20:35
Thanks, Lucy will stay with you for the next question coming into the chat box. Now, were you ever unsuccessful when applying for a role? And what did you learn from it?
Lucy Dyer 20:44
Um is it really bad if I say no, I'm quite young. And I think if I could answer that in a slightly different way, if that's okay, from what I've learned from other trainees is even if you get so far in application and a role that you decide maybe that you don't want, or is it right for you, just keep going with it. And you don't have to take it, you can turn it down at the end. Or even if you think one part of an application went really badly, you don't want to carry on, I'd really suggest just carrying on, you'll learn so much. And even if it is through not getting it, hopefully you'll get feedback. But if it's a job you're maybe not that passionate for, but you might as well learn the mistakes in that one. So then you're better at the next assessment, say you do or the next interview that you do. So in a slightly different question, my answer would be, don't give up. Just keep getting to the end of that application, because you'll learn so much from it. Sorry, I can't be a huge amount of help with that one.
Maaria Mahmood 21:45
That's great. Thank you so much. Do you see any other comments from that one?
Richard Watson 21:48
Yeah, I'll say something on that. Basically, you've just got to keep going because I did a geology UCL Master's. And after I came back from travelling for a while, it took me 18 months to get my first job in journalism. And I was writing loads and loads of applications being turned down by less than those people who quite understandably say, Well, you know, you're gonna experience now are we doing, and eventually, I was taken on by this tiny geological magazine, which gave me a sort of way into the business basically. So don't give up, you just got to work really hard. It's about it's a bit like doing a journalistic story. Actually, when I first started in journalism, there's no absolute magic to this, I used to categorise stories as either 20 phone call stories, 40 phone call stories, if it's a really difficult one it's a 100 phone calls story, you know, you just got to work really hard. And the same thing with applications.
Tommy Walters 22:41
On that I would say, don't take a rejection to heart, I can personally say I've been rejected from tonnes of jobs. But firstly, I've forgotten all about them, I can't remember any of the ones I was rejected from. And also, sometimes you don't even know because you don't even get response. Because a lot of people are very busy in this industry, and they don't want to dignify you with that, that doesn't matter. Because the reality is, if you're applying for, say, an internship at CNN, you're gonna have 1000 applicants applying for, say, five positions, something crazy like that. People are not going to even have time to read the applications. So it's not like they've looked at you. And they thought, okay, no way, it's sometimes just a matter of luck, whether you get something or whether you don't. That's why I would suggest, as always, with applications, it's important to have a name, who you contact at the organisation that you're interested in working out, because if you applied for a generic email, or if you apply for a system, you're going to get kind of, you know, you're just going to get pushed into this giant pool where your application might not even be found. So it's always important to use LinkedIn, as Ben was saying, to kind of reach out to someone and possibly someone who works in HR to say, like, Can you put my application aside, I'm really interested in this. I've spoken to you. And that is very important to have a name at an organisation where you want to work.
Maaria Mahmood 24:07
Thanks, Tommy, thanks very much. We'll move on to the next question. I know we're going into last 15 minutes. So if we stay with you for the next one, what experience or skills could you could make my CV stand out? And how any tip and how any tips on how I can gain these?
Tommy Walters 24:23
Um, well, I would say journalists these days have to be you know, we every you know jack of all trades, we have to learn how to not only research report, but also how to pitch in my case, I you know, have learned how to shoot and how to edit and how to even use, kind of like do graphic design, which I've had to pick up in the last few months through like YouTube, because that's a really important way to make graphics for the for our show. So I would say Don't be afraid to pick something up on YouTube and kind of add that to your list and the way to do it for shooting, I saw a question about how do I get experience in video production? I would say, email, people email, you know, people have shows that you've seen or kind of like journalists on Twitter and say, like, you know, can I possibly accompany you on your shoot? Can I, you know, shadow you for a day. I remember when I was at my, in my final year at UCL, I think around the time that we're at now. And I was kind of panicking about where I was going to go and what I was going to do. And I sent out an email to this BBC presenter called our Ben Zand. And I didn't get a response for like, a year. And I was like, Oh, well, I forgot I even emailed him. And then a year later, he said, Oh, actually told me I just picked up your email, do you want to be an assistant producer on my short documentary, your name just got totally lost in my email. And that was my first proper experience, around like, working with working on a shoot and working kind of like, behind the camera, and I was working with the director, and it was kind of taking notes for him. So it's always you know, that email will sometimes, you know, make a huge difference.
Maaria Mahmood 26:18
Thanks to me, thanks very much. Any other comments on that one quickly, before we move on? Nope. Okay, cool. Next question. If we head over to Ben, for this one, everyone says how important it is to have built relationships with editors, if you want, if you want your pitches to be read, what's the best way to do that these days?
Ben Kelly 26:38
Yeah, I mean, that's very true. I often find quite a lot people who follow me on social media and stuff will message me and say, oh, who should I email about this? Who should email about that? And yeah, the ones who've been no success, obviously, I write back and say, This is the email for the culture editor or the foreign editor or whatever. But it's kind of up to them then to go and build those relationships. And sometimes I see that it's worked out, I see someone's name cropping up again, and again, or whatever, I think establishing yourself as a writer or a, an expert on whatever it is that you're writing about, if someone knows, oh, you know, that guy writes really good stuff about, you know, Emily, or Oh, yeah, that girl's really good at writing about something over there, then they might keep you on tab. Build relationships with people who are editing sections, and topics and things that you want to be a part of, and just really kind of anchor yourself on the edges of that world, that little mini world is what I would say is the best thing to do. And kind of going back to what Lucy said, Yeah, the personal relationship is really good. Do pick up the phone, do send a little dm or a message or something that's not going to get washed away in the tide of emails, because let me tell you something, there are so many emails, the comments, those generic email addresses, it's really not worth your time. So I think making a personal connection with someone, and people are kind, like the people who do something that you want to do or who are editing in places you want to edit in and just ask them, what should I be doing? What do you look for what actually, you know, find out if you're wasting your time, or find out if there's an opening? And if there is take it and build on that.
Maaria Mahmood 28:19
Thanks very much, Ben. Thank you. I'm gonna move on to the next question. Try and get as many as we can the last 10 minutes. Richard, if you'd like to go with this one? What advice would you give to students at university wanting to get into journalism? What can we do to stand out and develop our writing voice?
Richard Watson 28:41
Two things, my overriding piece of advice really would be just to be super curious and use your own personal life and context wherever you can. Me journalism is a state of mind is set before you need to get into the habit of viewing the world as a potential story in a way, how might this be a potential story to follow? And you will come across lots of stories in your everyday lives. And if you're curious enough, you're taught you know, I always talk to taxi drivers find out what's bothering them. Talk to people who are on zero hours contracts, for example, which is an obvious story to do so I it's kind of state of mind, really, and you need to look at everything as potential story. That's not in a kind of cynical way. But it's just if you're in the business of telling stories, you've got to work out which ones you want to tell, because it takes a lot of effort to to write a piece or to make a film as I do. And so you've got to make sure you're focusing in on stories that really matter. I mean, personally, I do a lot of social justice journalism. And so I would say if there's something that's really concerning you or something you think is manifestly unfair, research it, make phone calls, speak to people develop contacts, so it's developing a passion for it is pretty essential.
Maaria Mahmood 30:00
Thanks, Richard, thanks very much. Any other comments on that? Before we move on?
Lucy Dyer 30:03
I feel like I've kind of already answered this question when I was talking about student media earlier. So I won't dwell on that. But what I would say is read, consume, watch journalism. The more you consume, the better you will be and the better writer or producer or videographer you will become. And then also, just on top of that, obviously, Richard mentioned, good journalism is expensive, it's not cheap. So if you can sort of buy a newspaper, whether it be the independent, or the times, every once in a while, you should probably try and contribute to the career you want to go into. And it will help you because the more you read, the better you will write.
Maaria Mahmood 30:38
So we will stay with you for the next one, going into the last five minutes of the session. I'm a researcher and PhD student at UCL considering a career in science journalism after finishing, is this a feasible path? And how should I go about it?
Lucy Dyer 30:51
Yeah, absolutely is a feasible, feasible job, I have a geography degree, sort of in the disclaimer of us, I don't think any of us have journalism degrees by the sound of it. And we have lots of people on our courses who want to go into science journalism. But I think you just need to take a step back. And for most careers, most employers just want you to be a journalist, first and foremost. And if you come with the expertise in other fields, whether it's science, or finance, or business or showbiz, whatever it may be, but I would just say, first and foremost, be a journalist, and then understand that your first career probably won't be in science journalism, but actually a year or so as a reporter on the ground, and really good skills for any form of journalism. So I would just say, just try and be a journalist, first and foremost, you've got the education to be a science journalist, you don't really need to work on that anymore. You need to work on becoming a journalist, and then you just combine those passions. Hopefully that makes sense.
Maaria Mahmood 31:47
Thanks, Lucy. Thanks very much have anything to add to that one? Before we go on to the next question?
Richard Watson 31:52
Well, yeah, I just say that being doing a PhD is, in a way, an ideal background for journalists there many ways. Because one thing is, especially in the kind of journalism I do, you need to be develop a skill that is assessing data, assessing arguments, presenting arguments. And if you if you're doing that in your academic life, then that's going to be a real benefit. In fact, any degree to be honest, is absolutely fine doing that. So teach teach to critical thinking, and how to assess evidence. But I'd say doing doing a post grad in UCL is a great way to be a journalist. Yep. Sure.
Maaria Mahmood 32:27
Thanks, Richard, if we can stay with you. The next question, and the question following is directed at you. So the next question is, is the path to investigative journalism different to journalism? And then we have a question, if someone hasn't, hasn't done a proper investigation before and isn't backed by media outlet? How could he or she know what is and what isn't allowed?
Richard Watson 32:51
First question is is it investigative? You know, what's the difference between investigative journalism and normal journalism? I suppose, essentially, it is a continuum. I mean, all journalism should be trying to shed new light on the world, or much new journalism should be trying to shed new light to the world. I mean, it's Yeah, that old cliche about telling something someone doesn't know is out there kind of thing. It's kind of true. And you and as, as Lucy says, You need to consume a lot of journalism to know what's out there in the public domain. Because if you're pitching stories, it's gonna be a lot stronger. If you're pitching a totally fresh angle on something or totally fresh story that's going to really make waves. So you really need to know what's out there to make that judgement. And investigation is, in a way, a just a much more difficult piece of journalism than a normal piece of journalism. Because then you're really trying to dig out information, which is totally hidden from the public. It's not in the public domain, you're relying off on confidential sources. I've done a lot of undercover work, for example, which is a very powerful way of getting evidence that you need for big investigations. But so I would say is definitely a continuum, that part of the same story, but investigations require certain skills. What was your second question? I forgot, I'm
Maaria Mahmood 34:11
sorry, if someone hasn't done a proper investigation before, isn't backed by media outlet, how could he or she know what is and what isn't allowed?
Richard Watson 34:18
It's a good point. I mean, there are lots and lots of pitfalls. I mean, when I was doing an undercover investigation into fraud, I had to junk a whole section of my investigation because my undercover operator started asking really, really leading questions. And if you're doing an investigation like that, you've got to almost assume that all this stuff is going to come out in court potentially one day, and defence barrister will cross examine you about this and say, well, that question was rude, totally leading. It wasn't neutral at all. So there's, there are lots of pitfalls. So I would say that before doing your own investigation, you either need to learn how to do it, preferably if there's too is good enough you take it someone who is an investigative journalist already. And if the story is good enough, they'll do it. Like, if you come to me with a really good story, then I'll have you know, I'll help you with it. I'll do it. I'll do it with you. And but the story has to be really, really good, obviously, because the benchmark for Newsnight and panorama is very high. But a good discipline I'd recommend you so I see a lot of people who come to me with stories, and they write reams and reams of stuff. And it's never you know, A I haven't got time to do it. And B it's not focused enough. It's a good discipline to try and summarise your story in two or three paragraphs, max, if you can't do it, there's not really much of a story there, actually.
Maaria Mahmood 35:40
Thanks, Richard. Thanks very much. But I'm very quickly squeeze in one last question in today, and I think this is going to be the last one of the day. Tommy, if you wouldn't mind answering this one for us? How do you set yourself apart from other applicants, or sorry, other applicants for internships, or jobs, etc.
Tommy Walters 36:00
I would say, as I've mentioned, before, find a niche, you need to in your cover letter, you need to explain why you're different. And that is say, you know, you've got to be a journalist, but you've got to have something else you can be, you know, interested in economics, or you can be interested in education, or you can have a language, I speak Spanish. So that's been hugely important for my reporting in the US, because you know Spanish is such a huge language, and a lot of people don't speak English, as well. So it's a good way to kind of get people's trust. So I'd say language is a huge important, especially if you want to do foreign reporting. And I would say also, in the cover letter, which is hugely important, you should craft a narrative, you should be telling a story about yourself. And that will engage people if you're just you know, writing down a list of kind of your skills, that's not compelling to read. That's not compelling for the HR person who's got to read 100 others, you've got to say why you are fit for this role and kind of construct a narrative around you know why you are suited.
Maaria Mahmood 37:20
Thanks Tommy, any other final comments from our speakers? Before we end today's session,
Richard Watson 37:25
I would just say, pursue the career in journalism if you can. It's a brilliant job. You've got the power to change things. It's a very good way and then seeing way of making a living, so aim high.
Maaria Mahmood 37:38
Thanks, Richard. That brings us to the end of the session. So once again, thank you to our speakers to Richard, Tommy, Ben and Lucy for giving us your time today.
Jo Budd 37:47
Thank you all so much for watching today's video. We hope you found the q&a format of this session. Interesting and hopefully some of your own questions were answered along the way. Thanks so much for watching, and we'll see you next time.