Transcript: Episode 37
How can we juggle parenting, home schooling and play?
children, parents, curriculum, ucl, people, teachers, sandy, homeschooling, learning, thinking, bit, school, play, education, support, research, lorraine, screen, playful, activity
John Potter, Sandy Leaton Gray, Lorraine Sherr, Vivienne Parry
Vivienne Parry 00:03
Hello and welcome to Coronavirus - the whole story. I'm Vivienne Parry, a writer, broadcaster, UCL alumna and the person lucky enough to be your guide to UCL's extraordinary, wide ranging research on Coronavirus. In this week's episode, we're focused on homeschooling. And even as I said it, I swear I felt a collective shutter sweep through the capital. Many of our listeners are academics who are used to teaching but getting your own kids through not just one lesson but a whole day, a whole week. A whole three months is something else altogether. Let's face it, for many of us getting them out of their pyjamas is a big deal. Never mind grappling with French vocab. It's a recipe for battles, tantrums, and downright misery. And all on top of our own punishing work schedules, anxieties, and needs for Wi Fi. at a deeper level are our fears that our children are falling behind academically, socially and physically becoming demoralised and unhappy. So we thought it was time to bring in the cavalry, three experts from UCL who can offer some tips and tricks to those who need it. And let's face it, that's all of us. My first guest this week is Professor Lorraine Sherr. Lorraine is Professor of Clinical and Health Psychology in the Department for Infection and Population Health, and Head of the Health Psychology unit. She's got a very varied research portfolio, there's encompasses many different elements of health care and access, which has informed her policy work with the WHO. Currently Lorraine is part of the initiative to provide COVID-19 parenting tips working with UNICEF who use aid and the global challenges Research Fund. I'm also joined by Dr. Sandy Leaton Gray and Associate Professor of Education at the IOE. Sandy is an applied sociology of education specialists whose research has covered everything from education professionalism, to the knowledge economy to AI in education. And last but not least, I'm joined by Professor John Potter. John is professor of media in education in the UCL knowledge lab, and a founding member of the dare collaborative research partnership focused on the Digital Arts in Education. He's a former primary school teacher, and is now a member of the research committee of the UK literacy Association, and the executive committee member of the media Education Association, which supports media educators. So let's start by hearing how homeschooling is affecting children, Sandy. And I I'm thinking as I'm just saying this, how different it is. But how different is homeschooling for kids than school schooling?
Sandy Leaton Gray 02:48
Well, there's a number of things that we found out in our research project, talking to children, teachers and parents about this. One thing that strikes us is suddenly the education spirit is very fragmented. So you know, you just can't make assumptions about what's happening anywhere, and who's doing the same as whom. And so that's a factor. We're hearing a lot about the difficulties of broadband. So even if people are spending quite a lot of money on their technology at home, they're not always able to access everything online that they need to. And that's very fragmented across the country. And we're hearing about the psychological battles that are going on. And parents not quite knowing where the line between being a parent and being a teacher is anymore and having trouble encouraging their children to the light when it comes to apply themselves to work. Conversely, some children are spending ridiculous amounts of time online. My youngest, it seems, is spending last week spent 79 hours online, according to the list of report that's generated in some special software for us. Now, I don't think he was actually hard at it. For the whole period, I think there was a lot of Minecraft going on in socialisation. But it's not a great way to spend your youth. And indeed, it's not very good for your fitness either. So you know, there's really big questions there. And questions that are simple things like date, night exercise, General socialisation skills, and a really strange thing that children are starting to become a little bit afraid of having conversations with people outside their family groups, they're becoming a bit more afraid of even little things like going down to the shop, and they're worried that you know that this is losing these skills. So it's something we all need to be aware of.
Vivienne Parry 04:40
And I guessing for parents, actually there's a lot of anxiety about helping kids with their work because there are lots of areas that people don't feel very confident in maths for example. Yeah, I
Sandy Leaton Gray 04:53
mean, I'm a qualified teacher and I've taught different age groups before I went into academia and I have to say, I found it credibly daunting to try to think up and deliver some kind of coherent programme without the support of colleagues. And without really knowing what kids had done before and what comes next. And so on his subjects outside my immediate area, which was music Originally, I found it horrendous. And I remember sitting there last spring thinking, I don't know how people are coping if they haven't had any training, and they haven't got the sort of bigger picture stuff that you accumulate as part of going through a PGC teacher training course. Now, I think it's a little better because teachers have upskilled, in quite a dramatic and impressive manner, in how to flex to deliver things online and make the most of the resources that are there and do some live teach and things like that. And it's it's been really extremely impressive what they've managed to do whilst maintain our kind of class esprit de corps where everybody is getting along together and making a contribution, so full credit to them. And that takes a little bit of pressure off parents, but just plunking children in front of a computer. And having one live lesson after another all day isn't really the solution either. We need to think about ways of embedding that into the children's deeper consciousness if you like. And I think that's what parents worry about that, you know, there's activity going on. But it's the thoroughness that they worry about, and whether this will be durable, and whether it's sort of help their children build on other things as they move forward. But I think my advice to parents is just a chill about it, because there's absolutely nothing we can offer. And I think anybody that manages to get the house all showered once a day and put food in them, and it hasn't kicked off deserves a medal.
Vivienne Parry 06:45
The other thing, of course, that we've all discovered is, oh my goodness, may we put teachers on pedestals, I mean, respects to teachers, I mean, we've all discovered just how hideous it can be, to try to deny something into your, into your child who doesn't want to learn and, and actually act up because there's, you know, there's not the pressure of peers, or the school environment, and they can behave really badly. So Lorraine, what's this done for parents? Or what's it not? For parents, I
Lorraine Sherr 07:24
should say? Well, you know, be a little bit on peace about it. Because you say you can upskill teachers, you can upskill parents, and you can upskill students. Also remember that creativity is the best tool. And you can learn through play, you can learn in very many different ways. And I suppose the issue to parents is to relax a little bit, and to remember that the most important thing they can give their child is not home schooling or computer time. It's their time, one on one time, you can do enormous amounts with it.
Vivienne Parry 08:00
The other side of that is, of course, we're all working. And I mean, all these people who say, well, when we get back to work, and most of us thinking I've never worked so hard and all my life. And and so I think that that's a real pressure for parents, when both parents are working, both want the Wi Fi, or just in single parent households, where there's a key work meeting going on. And the children are kicking off in the next room. And it's it's really difficult.
Sandy Leaton Gray 08:34
It's intolerable, isn't it. And I think it's really an exaggerated form of something that people have been feeling at the edges for a long time, you know that we've not got the extended family support and structure in a lot of instances throughout society now and parents are increasingly left on their own to try and be all things to all people. We've got a really exaggerated form of it now. And I just think the only thing you can do is survive and look forward to the summer. At the moment.
Vivienne Parry 09:03
I was on a call with a big call in a major meeting. And a teenage came in and kind of patted her dad on the shoulder and he kept on kind of motioning her away. And eventually she stood at the door of the room and just chatted, Dad the cookers on fire. And off he disappeared.
Lorraine Sherr 09:29
intrusiveness of the camera into our into our world and our ability to play the work home game has been really ruptured. And it's quite amusing at times.
Sandy Leaton Gray 09:41
I love it though. But I love it because I think that for a long time women in particular have had to pretend that they haven't got a home life and that it's all seamless and happening somewhere else. And the idea that that everybody's admitted it's like coming out the closet is isn't it as a nation or a society. We've admitted we have children and we have houses This is what they look like. And this is what people do. And it's been quite liberating. Actually, when it's not all falling apart, it's liberating. Not
Vivienne Parry 10:06
always very. And, john, I want to come to you because there are so many competing messages about online learning. I mean, we've already heard there that worries about the number of hours, because we're told on the one hand that children shouldn't be on screens all the time. But on the other hand, that that's the only way they can they can learn what the parents actually needed to know about online learning.
John Potter 10:45
I think, well, if I rewind a little bit, Vivian and ask about on screen use, because I think there is a concern about masses of on screen use, obviously. But I would counsel against thinking that it's all one thing in the same way that online learning is not all one thing on the screen use isn't all one thing. I mean, Sandy gave a very nice pen portrait of all of the different things that her child was doing. And some of that might have been creative and playful. Some of it might have involved socialising when they can't do any other kind of socialising. And some of it might have been not good. And I straining. So concern is understandable. But I would ask for a bit more nuanced in the debate. I mean, again, just as Sandy was asking for, when she was talking about the negativity angle, which is children are falling behind. I mean, imagine if you did not live in a house with good Wi Fi. If you had four kids in a tower block somewhere, and every time you turned on the TV, someone pointed out to you that your children were falling behind, they may in fact be inventing new games and play playful activities, they may be being creative, they may be finding ways to cope themselves. And so that's one of the reasons why we're doing a COVID-19 project on children's play during this time. But yeah, I've my main point here is to say, be a little bit more nuanced in the debate.
Vivienne Parry 12:07
Yeah, and I think it goes back to what we're saying is you can't do anything about this, you have to chill, you can't stress about it. And actually, children are quite resilient. They, they're having a very bad time and perhaps amongst the worst affected of those by the pandemic, but they are resilient, and more so than we think.
John Potter 12:29
Yes. And we think that some of this is down to their ability to still be playful, and to make up new ways of of playing games, whether it whether it's a kind of zoom, hide and seek thing with family members, if they're lucky enough to be on Wi Fi and have zoom, that there are other ways that that they can play with each other during times when they're outside and exercising safely. And we also think that there's interesting variations of games that they used to play when they've gone back to school and been in bubbles. They've been very creative about the way that they've played in bubbles, and inventing playground games that don't involve touch, Shadow tag, and all of this kind of thing. And children are amazingly creative, and resilient. Our project seeks to create a play Observatory, which we're hoping to launch in the next few weeks, which will allow parents and children to document some of the ways that they have been being resilient and playful and enjoying aspects of this situation. Bizarre as that might sound. And we're going to invite contributions for them in the form of videos or drawings or anecdotes, audio. And we're going to collect them in an archive in much the same way as Peter and Iona Opie documented children's play over about 30 or 40 years. So we've got a great team of children's historians and archivists, and we're conducting a kind of a mixture of a social science project where we're looking at what they're doing, and an archival record of this time for the future, which will be located in the British Library, amongst other places. So we're quite excited about that.
Vivienne Parry 14:01
I hope you gathered some of those snaps of kids playing in the snow just a couple of days ago, where they were not building snowman, but they were building these huge snowballs with sticks all over them to be coronaviruses. Yes,
John Potter 14:16
yes. It's wonderful, isn't it? We've seen that and we've also seen pavement drawings, chalk drawings of the same kind of thing. And my colleague Kate Callen is a real expert on children's play. And she's been tweeting out all sorts of examples that she's found, including, I don't know if you saw a clip on Twitter the other day of toddlers going up to objects in the environment and pretending to sanitise their hands. This kind of thing is the sort of thing that we want to collect for posterity this resilience and making something of a difficult situation that children are engaged with.
Vivienne Parry 14:51
So we've established that our children are not entirely wrecked yet, and that actually as parents, there's not so much We can do you know, anxiety and stress about it is going to get us nowhere. So what I'm going to concentrate on absolutely now is advice and tips. Let's go to you first in the rain. Can you tell us about parenting resources that you've been developing for who and UNICEF?
Lorraine Sherr 15:18
Well, it's been a very exciting initiative right at the beginning, we sort of woke up and thought, Oh, my gosh, we know. And we were able to get UNICEF who USA ID a large group and the parenting for lifelong health. And idea was that we should have evidence based interventions, not just knee jerk and what we think. And there is great evidence, I mean, you, you, john and Sandra describing good trials, or parenting can be taught, lots of things can be taught, and we just take for granted that you don't teach it. So we put together in the first instance six, and then 12 parenting tips. And very straightforward, very simple based on evidence, and they've just gone very viral, we've had over 130 million hits, and all over the world. And we've just had a piece of research to try and look at how, how they've been received and from paraglide. To Malawi, from South Africa, to Israel, UK, all across the globe, we found a utility and parents are grateful. Very often you know how to parents but you need permission to there's a lot of prompting and permission that comes in with these tips. A lot of reminders and things you sort of know and you give up when you're frazzled, and little learning things like you know, if you don't make the rules, they will children love to ask questions that you don't want to answer. painting on paper is really much better than painting all over the wall. Just some general advice about taking some deep breaths, take five of them before you're about to shout. And it's amazing how people can be prompted reminded and little small things. It can just help can really help.
Vivienne Parry 17:13
What about if parents are tempted to steer off piste in terms of the school curriculum? You may know or the certainly that the listeners will know Mamma mia dove, Nick, who I think had got his children involved in a whole materials. course for school, which wasn't on the curriculum andreya, Salah was the same? And how anxious should parents be about sticking to those kind of things that are on the school curriculum? Or can they do something that's playful? And, and different? without worry?
Sandy Leaton Gray 17:47
I think that depends, doesn't it? You know, it depends really, whether you've got good communication with the school, or whether it's joining up to something that went before and that's going to follow on because if you go completely off the subject for everything with no communication with the school, and it's very hard to then reform, isn't it? So I think you have to decide whether your child is learning at home, but still registered with a school, or whether you're, you're actually homeschooling and they're separate things. And you have to be a little bit mindful of the sort of teachers needing to track and build and make sure that they're, you know, if they're going to be accountable for your child's learning, then then there needs to be a decent homeschool relationship. underpinning that
Vivienne Parry 18:33
sticking to the syllabus of courses is more important as children get older and towards exam times. I mean, you can't say I've never liked Mice and Men much, let's let's do something else.
Lorraine Sherr 18:44
Learning is like building step building and brick building and foundation building. So the curriculum is important for the next steps. But there's wider there's more to learning than just the curriculum. And I think it's really important for a child to learn something and to learn nothing. And we do have to have some flexibility in these very strange times. Yeah, I
John Potter 19:08
would agree with everything that's been said so far. And I would say that the curriculum is embedded in all sorts of activities that it doesn't appear to be at first, if you were to take a project of making a film through a day, you've got negotiation with time, you've got planning, you've got scripting, you've got acting, you've got actively thinking about the language that you use. One minute documentary about something that you're actually doing would be a fantastic way of playing and also encountering aspects of the curriculum, which would, you know, not at first sight appear to be embedded in the activity. I think that we underestimate how children experience time as well. A Day is a really long time for a child. And there is very I mean, if we are after tips, it is not possible for a child to sit in front of a screen. It's difficult enough as an adult, but to do that for hour after hour after hour and expect to be, you know, learning and absorbing information. So my top tip would be to get people away and to be active, to return to the screen with something to show for the time they've been away from the screen. And of course, with my research hat on, I would encourage people to when it opens, to contribute to the play Observatory, because in doing creative activity around showing people the kinds of play that you've been doing, you will be doing curriculum activity, constructing expressive sentences, you'll be you'll be making something that is of value to your schooling, anyway.
Lorraine Sherr 20:40
Also important to know that there's more to school in the curriculum, all the extracurricular activities, and we, that would be a worry, a lot of children are stopping those. And that's really fundamental to growing music and dancing and sport and football and Outward Bound stuff and learning how to tie knots and do not just about it within the curriculum. But also remember that they learning it skills that they probably could never get at school can tick off what they are doing, as opposed to worrying about what they're not.
Sandy Leaton Gray 21:12
Yeah. And then there's the there's the moments in between hands. So it is massively important point about the the what we call the extended curriculum, where you're you're going beyond the subjects and doing you know, more interesting and deeper and complex things. And you know, we need to be thinking forward a little bit so that when there are when there's restrictions being lifted for a short while, because infection levels go down, it's really important that parents go out as much as they can and experience as much as they can with the kids in terms of being able to get out and about do trips and go to parks and look at things and do things. And that will have a sort of enhanced benefits, because there's been so little of that going on. So there'll be a new appreciation of that. And that will backfill a lot of the other difficulties.
Vivienne Parry 22:01
Let's break this down into the kind of age groups, john, with your primary school experience. What about primary school aged children? I mean, you've already mentioned that given a break from the screen,
John Potter 22:15
I think opportunities to explore their environment to bring things back to the screen, could they make something that they can show? Could they go and write a message that they hold up to the screen and they're not typing or making something, you know, have that kind of nature into this in the screen with primary school children, when you think about it, that one of the things that that is most difficult for them, and it does come across whenever there's a news feature on it, for example, is the social aspect of what's been lost. There was an interview on the BBC News last night in the school, I think it was in Warrington, and one of the children in in shorts said it's okay, I can learn at home. It's not great. I much prefer learning at school. But one of the things I miss is my friends. So are there ways that you can connect friends, smaller groups, in conversations? Are there ways that you can organise it? Are there ways that you can discuss with the school how that could be organised where friendship groups could work together? I think the importance of children are able to chat to each other about what it is they're doing. That's one of the big losses of this particular situation if you think about a primary school classroom, so that idea of the social world of the child, is there some way that we could recreate that using the technology and you know, when they go back in it's immense the kind of outpouring of friendship that there is and then suddenly it's it's taken away again. And that would be a nice thing to aim at. Is there some way we could do that?
Vivienne Parry 23:42
Lorraine? What about the other end? And teenagers because this is all happened at a time when teenagers are pretty difficult to handle at home at the best of times. You know love them though we do they there's a lot of flouncing and door slamming and, and all of that, and they're really, really suffering I think at the moment from not having their friends around. How can we best cope with teens?
Lorraine Sherr 24:10
teen teens Oh, wonderful. And we have to focus on sort of tea and agency not so much as team problems, because they don't all flower and some of them are amazing. And in fact, some of them put their flowers into music, and we call it dancing. So we have to kind of understand much of the disaster is about the loss of opportunity, their diversion of life plans, we've taken away from under their feet, things like targeting for their exams or disappearing, their opportunities fizzling out? So I think you do you need to have some creativity with with teens, and I would actually start by asking them, I think we're so busy telling everyone else what to do, we should get a little bit cleverer about Listening, our work is global. So we look across the world. And the things to be wary of, with with a teenage population globally is some of the old problems like gender issues, a group in Kenya are reporting that when they reopen schools, many girls are not coming back. They've either gone off, lost the will lost the support, or had early marriages. So we have to look at that. Other issues globally, are about teens just getting their act together, we've seen teams selling masks creating interventions. So in this country, we just have to keep a very open mind and be very patient. And we should be guided by a positive, constructive approach, rather than wringing hands of
Vivienne Parry 25:52
despair. And we should give a big Huizar for their genius creativity on Tick tock, I'm just in awe. So now, as it happens, I'm interviewing Michael Spence, the new provost of UCL in the next couple of weeks. And one of the things that I wanted to put to him was, all these kids will need to have catch up, you know, they will really need to get all that not only the socialising, but catch up with individual bits of work that they've really got behind on. And I wondered whether and how the UCL community could play a part in doing that for school students in the in the Canton area. What about that as a thought anyone, perhaps go to Sandy on that? How are we going to help children catch up,
Sandy Leaton Gray 26:41
I think we've all got to be very honest, as a society about the need the need for resets and the need for free resets. And the need to have second and third goes things. And that was kind of dying out. And there was this sort of moral value ascribed to whether you could pass an exam first time off, and without extra help. And I think that's all got to go. And so when we're looking at courses that we ran an outreach that we do, we can do a lot to help subject teachers, and really enrich and extend the knowledge of the young people on their courses. And also support them being able to leap over the educational hurdles that we saw, we have there because we have to have some kind of filter in to get people onto different life paths, I think we just have to be very accepting of the fragmentation that's gone on. And just to do our best to try and fill in the gaps a little bit there.
Lorraine Sherr 27:34
Vivienne Parry 27:35
is there anything in that that we all need to pile in to help kids as much as we can?
Lorraine Sherr 27:40
Well, I think we could get a bit strategic. So we should think big. So for example, 1000s, or hundreds of 1000s of teachers all across the country are repeating the same lesson makeshift having to prepare, it's all going out on video, why don't we have the curriculum with a mess? Brilliant, you know, David assembla, standard of content, and then you're going to use the teaching as a discussion and dialogue, instead of having to have millions of small little responses, I think we could think big and have a much more strategic way of approaching how we impart information, the quality of what we do, and a different way of doing it. I think I
Sandy Leaton Gray 28:22
think teachers do that, though. I mean, they're very used to drawing on existing resources. They're not sitting there making, you know, hundreds of 1000s of micro videos when there's something that they can draw upon, show young people and then discuss and I think there's a real danger in having these monolithic, he like, televisual models of learning, and holding up the experts and then saying, you see these people really know what they're doing and teachers falling behind them. Teachers are very, very highly trained professionals who are get good at knowing what's going on in school with that group of people is that time at the chalk face, Jamie's dream school was on television was an example of where it can go horribly wrong. It's not enough to just stand there, knowing something about a subject and then expecting that you get all the follow through, and the richness that you get from a highly trained professional tailoring and, and tweaking and that sort of thing. So I think we have to be very nervous.
Vivienne Parry 29:20
JOHN, what about catch up and lots of people outside the school communities really piling in to help children?
John Potter 29:30
I think that's a great idea. I think I also go Sandy on the need for some structural support around that, in other words, removing some of the structure around that. If you tell someone they're falling behind, what are they falling behind? Let's be honest about assessment. Let's be honest about the curriculum at this time and relieve some of the pressure. And I applaud that idea of of the of the resets, I thought the reins point previously about valuing what teenagers and others bring to the party. I think Can we create spaces in which we can have more participant led research, when we've previously researched children's playground games before the pandemic, Kate and I created and so to Sheffield colleagues, Julia and Jackie created situations in which children reported on their own lives. And that requires a degree of organisation of thought, and a huge range of communicative skills. And so participant co production of research into their own lives. I think creating projects where children can make those kinds of videos can make those sorts of contributions and talk about what it is they've been doing, what it is they've been playing, and what their aspirations and hopes are combined with some relaxation of this pace, pace, pace, assess, assess, assess curriculum that we have now, maybe it's a chance to reform schooling,
Sandy Leaton Gray 30:48
there's a really good term that we talk about with students. It's comes from basil Bernstein, and he used the term, the symbolic ruler for the way that we measure young people against each other in these age cohorts, to see whether they're ahead of time or behind time. And then we talk about whether this is good or bad. And I think this is the thing that we have to ditch and we have to start looking at the learning that's going on, and not measuring children quite so intensively.
Vivienne Parry 31:17
So we're getting to the end of our time now. And I wanted to give you each my magic wand now I hand it out very liberally and generously at the end of these podcasts. And I'm going to give you each my magic wand and ask you what one thing would you do with your wand to help people homeschooling at the moment? And by the way, money is no object. So let's start with Lorraine. What would you do? Oh,
Lorraine Sherr 31:48
well, I didn't, I didn't believe in magic. So I think I would have to say, you know, it's just about human endeavour, children's creativity, don't dream be real. So I find it very difficult to think that we could have a magic bullet to fix all of this. But what we should be able to do is to pause to listen, to support, give positive praise. If I was to give one thing I would say you know, 20 minutes of total attention to a child. That's not magic. That's just real.
Vivienne Parry 32:24
Fantastic. Sandy, how about you?
Sandy Leaton Gray 32:26
Well, I've been working with different stakeholders and MPs and so on across the country to try and unpick the whole broadband problem. We've been doing this for about three years now. And it's been quite frustrating. So what I'm doing, I'm plugging that magic wand into the National Grid. And I'm linking and linking it up to all the all the all the infrastructure for broadband everywhere. And it's now supercharged, and everybody's got 300 megabytes all the time,
Vivienne Parry 32:52
even if everyone's playing fortnight,
Sandy Leaton Gray 32:54
even if they're playing fortnight. And by the way we've had with you know, we've had some people have plagues of locusts and frogs and things. We've had a plague of laptops, they've come down, there's laptops everywhere, and you just help yourself.
Vivienne Parry 33:07
Right, plagues of laptops, and national grid and broadband everywhere. John, how about you? Okay, well,
John Potter 33:17
that's interesting, I might have gone for that Sunday. So you've gone for the materiality of it, I'd go for some kind of idea. I would actually like to just wave away the pressure and the negativity that comes out of the media, on parents and on teachers equally, but differently and sometimes seeks to divide them. So I would get rid of all of that. And instead, I would wave in trust, empathy, pausing and talking to your children and with them. And and the sort of nuance to the debate. It's so polarised at the moment, and it doesn't help anybody. So I would wave away the negativity. Well, I
Vivienne Parry 33:51
think those are three absolutely magnificent suggestions. I did notice that Sandy got away with suggesting two things, but we'll let her off because they were, they were both very splendid. Thank you, all three of you. You've been so helpful. And I would just say to parents, don't stress about this, know that there are things sometimes that you can't change. And if you try and change them, and that unchangeable, all you'll end up doing is getting bigger and bigger state of anxiety, and it's happening to everyone. So I think that's helpful. It's not just happening to you. So remember that you've been listening to Coronavirus the whole story. This episode was presented by myself Vivienne Parry, produced by UCL with support from the UCL health of the polar and UCL grand challenges and edited by the very splendid Cerys Bradley. I was joined today by Professor laurentia Dr. Sandy Leaton Gray and Professor John Potter. If you'd like to hear more of these podcasts from UCL Minds, subscribe wherever you download your podcasts or visit ucl.ac.uk forward slash Coronavirus. This podcast is brought to you by UCL Minds bringing together UCL knowledge, insights and expertise through events, digital content and activities open to everyone. Hope to be with you again soon. Bye for now.