UCL Minds


Transcript: Episode 22


Could COVID be the great equaliser?



people, pandemic, inequalities, countries, global, ucl, vaccines, virus, disabilities, system, realise, podcast, deal, pandemic preparedness, partnership, crisis, governance, livelihoods


Cathy Holloway, Tom Pegram, Henrietta Moore, Vivienne Parry


Vivienne Parry  00:03

Hello and welcome to Coronavirus, The Whole Story UCL’s award winning podcast covering every aspect of the global pandemic. My name is Vivienne Parry. I'm a writer, broadcaster, UCL alumna and for the best part of the past six months, I've been your guide to UCL’s multifaceted and always fascinating range of coronavirus research. This week we're talking inequalities. The virus has been cruel in the way that it's both exposed and increased inequalities. And some of our previous episodes have touched on them, particularly those on education. And in episode nine, the inequalities relating to health, especially those of ethnic minorities. And just a reminder, these and all our previous episodes are still available on our website. So if you're new to the podcast, hello, if you are, you can catch up at any time. If you're looking for more podcasts on inequalities, and in particular race and racism, it is black history month after all, then I recommend catching up on the Short Takes podcast from the Sarah Parker Remond Centre, which has been executive produced by Paul Gilroy, and features voices from inside UCL and out.


Today I'm joined by an anthropologist, an engineer and a political scientist as we explore inequalities from a global perspective. And we're going to try and inch our way to suggesting some solutions. My first guest is Professor Dame Henrietta Moore, the founder and director of the UCL Institute for Global Prosperity. As an academic Henrietta uses a multidisciplinary approach to help communities businesses and governments grow what challenges traditional economic models of growth, instead arguing for diversity, grassroots organising, and a greater understanding for the constraints of our environment. This is a perspective she now applies as a leading intellectual and commentator on issues such as Brexit, and universal basic services. I'm also joined by Professor Cathy Holloway, the Academic Director and a co-founder of the Global Disability Innovation Hub. Cathy is professor of interaction design and innovation in UCL’s Interaction Centre, and applies engineering and robotics to create a fairer, more accessible world, working on projects such as the development of low cost prosthetics, and the innovation of new assistive technologies. And my final guest this week is Dr. Tom Pegram, who is an associate professor in global governance in the UCL Department of Political Science, and the Deputy Director of the Global Governance Institute, an organisation working with researchers across UCL to facilitate interdisciplinary research and knowledge sharing on issues of global governance, and governance deficit. Tom's own research focus is on transnational governance and human rights organisations. So let's start with trying to explore how the pandemic has affected inequality. We've looked at this in previous episodes, as I've said, but mostly with respect to inequalities in the UK. Henrietta, can you give us the World Vision and tell us how Coronavirus has exacerbated different inequalities on a global scale?


Henrietta Moore  03:17

Well, because the fascinating thing about the virus is that it fixes all of our fragilities. So in each country, it's had a rather different impact. I mean, in China and South Korea and Taiwan, where they've done lots of testing and tracing, and have been very careful about their governance process, they've done really well. But Latin America and Africa, for example, have been hit really badly by collapsing global trade. And of course, by the collapsing tourist industry as well. I found that livelihoods have just melted away. and South Africa itself particularly badly hit and then of course, India, and we've just crossed the 1 million miles around the globe. So we're shutting schools and shops and closing borders, destroying people's livelihoods. And people are now saying that it's going to be an economic shock three times as great as the 2000 2008 financial crisis. So that's a pretty large hit and taken over all the problem is that war, poverty, and second of all hunger. So almost all of the gains we've made in the last 25 years on poverty and hunger globally, are going to be rolled back as a result of the COVID crisis. And then we have the impact on different groups within societies. So the most vulnerable groups, as you probably heard in an earlier podcast in the UK have been particularly badly hit. But around the world, for example, the biggest increase in child marriage that we've had in the last 25 years. So very specific impacts on vulnerable communities in different places and different locations, but overall, a rather devastating picture really because viruses are of course indiscriminate, whereas humans are rather precise in the kinds of ways that they discriminate against each other. And that virus latches on to those forms of discrimination.


Vivienne Parry  05:09

So of course, it's spreading far more in areas where people are packed together in shanty towns, and don't have the opportunity to self isolate.


Henrietta Moore  05:19

Indeed it is. But it's also very interesting because many countries who've done well in managing this, and this would include, for example, places that people would be perhaps surprised to learn have done quite well. So this would be sending gold. This would be Malawi, for example, in Africa, both very poor countries. And they've done better because they had learnt the lessons of what you needed to do both from the HIV pandemic, but also from Ebola. And what they learned there is that you need to work with local communities, particularly if you don't have lots of resources, you need to mobilise those communities really well, you need to explain very clearly what they need to do. And actually, in the developed north, in quite a few situations, including in the United Kingdom, itself, we did not work well with local communities. And we still haven't really explained as far as many people are concerned what we should all be doing.


Vivienne Parry  06:10

And actually this, this theme of countries that have previous experience of other disease. So for instance, you know, Korea and Japan and all those countries affected by SARS, that's a theme that's come across time and time again, in these podcasts that those countries were, were much better prepared. And are we seeing an improvement in inequalities in any space because of this? In other words, the sense that everyone is together sometimes helps with inequalities. Is there any evidence of that?


Henrietta Moore  06:47

No I don't think there's any evidence about this, the scale of the economic hit, for example, is too great. And these are countries all, I mean, even you know, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, places, which are normally small economies doing well, very focused, very well managed. But you know, even those economies are doing badly because of the impact on global trade.


Vivienne Parry  07:11

That's the problem. So there'll be an impact on trade on trade, which is exacerbating inequalities, and then the effects of the virus itself with stopping people working. Anything else, which you feel is particularly contributing to inequalities on a global scale besides the economic hit?


Henrietta Moore  07:31

Well, as I said, what the virus does is to fix on to the frailties that already exist. So you feel vulnerable in any other way. So if you're vulnerable, from a health point of view, if you're vulnerable, because you lack human rights, if you're vulnerable, because you're young, or if you're black, then all of those things will be exacerbated by the virus itself. Because it works - Covid is like so many of these things, a disease of intimacy. And so it works through human relay, and human relays depend on the way in which we organise our societies. And so viruses of this kind always, if you like, reflect our own prejudices.


Vivienne Parry  08:08

We've seen the short term hit, what about the long term hit? How are we going to see inequalities developing over say, the next five or 10 years?


Henrietta Moore  08:19

Well, I think the the issue here is that it's probably going to be a generational hit. And and that's one of the scary things about it, particularly for for the young go very badly hit by what's happening to employment and livelihoods, but also by their disruption or in education. I mean, the cost of global GDP of the disruption in children's education is is absolutely huge. So in order to deal with that kind of thing, we need to change the way we approach the build back from COVID-19 itself. And the question is, are we able to do that? So there's a lot of talk about it, and everyone's talking about and build back better. But when you actually look at what's going on, there's very little evidence that there's much sign of a new approach, although a great deal of talk about one


Vivienne Parry  09:09

and one of the distressing things we're seeing is that it seems to be at the moment, you know, every country for itself, and any global cohesion seems to be fragmenting very quickly. How is it going to affect international relations and agreements? I'm thinking of things like the Paris Agreement and the UN Sustainable Development Goals.


Henrietta Moore  09:30

Well, both. Both are under threat from COVID, although not necessarily because of the breakdown of international agreements or forms of partnership and collaboration. Although, of course, from another angle. These things are under pressure because of the kind of populist politics which are sweeping across the globe. But the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, have five pillars as you're aware, and they are people planet peace prosperity and partnership. And partnership in a way is the most important one, we quite often focus in ordinary, everyday discussion on the importance of the planet. But there's a huge emphasis that we should be playing on partnership on how we live well with others, how do we get on with other people, and what kind of governance mechanisms do we have in place at every level, from the smallest community to the national level, to the international level. Because if you take the view that governance can be defined just as the way in which societies organise their relations with each other, and with themselves, the different parts that make up societies, then you can see that it makes a huge difference as to how you organise yourself in this kind of situation. And so if you have, for example, countries saying we wish to have access to equipment, which we're not going to allow other people to have access to, or we want to get hold of the gains of any potential vaccine ahead of anybody else, these things will cause certain kinds of relationships to break down. Yeah,


Vivienne Parry  10:58

Thank you so much, Henrietta, always fascinating to talk to you. Let's move now from talking about countries as a whole to the people within them, and group that are often discussed in the context of a pandemic of people with underlying conditions. They're one of the group's most impacted, but also it seems most easily dismissed particularly by politicians who try to downplay Coronavirus, because, Cathy, first of all, can you describe the way that Coronavirus has affected this group?


Cathy Holloway  11:24

Yes, I speak on behalf of persons with disabilities or disabled people globally. And what we know is that disabled people are more often likely to be poor and that if you are poor, you're more likely to be disabled. And so therefore you're these types of crisis can impact you in in multiple ways. So what we're finding is that their access to livelihood is is completely withdrawn to the social distancing aspects of lockdown mean that many people with disabilities, their opportunities to socialise, but also to earn a living or to get an education or have been cut right back. So if you look at work we've been doing in Bangladesh, for example, in the textile industry, where we have been making quite a number of breakthroughs in getting persons with disabilities into jobs and into employment. Now, they they as a group are seen as sort of the hardest to bring back. So that vulnerability is sort of amplified to the employer who's also under immense economic threats to their their core business, they no longer feel generous or able to deal with what they see as an additional problem of inclusion of people with disabilities. And then the very poor, you know, the people who live in you call them shanty towns earlier, but maybe informal settlements, that those the people who maybe beg or just barter or make small exchanges, those small exchanges and are outlawed and, and that that puts extreme pressure on on people's on people's lives. I think if you go up up the classes, if you like, if you're lucky enough to be middle class, or live in a more middle income country, there's the pandemic is still has an effect, we've seen that people haven't been able to access services for assistive technology, for example, things like hearing aids, wheelchairs, even eyeglasses, and those that lack of service provision is again, kind of feeding into this critical poverty cycle. So it's having a far reaching effect. And I think as Henrietta says, it's, it's something that's going to be generational. So we we had made a lot of progress, I think, in getting people to understand the rights of persons with disability, getting people to understand that assistive technology and inclusive design principles of cities and of education systems and health systems, universal health coverage is essential for the fair playing field for people with disabilities. And I'm very fearful that a lot of those advances will recoil very quickly, and take a long time to build back again.


Vivienne Parry  13:51

So the virus seems to be baking in disadvantage.


Cathy Holloway  13:54

Yeah, I think there's also an element of stigma and further discrimination. So for example, if you're deaf or hard of hearing, and you're wearing a face mask, you can't everybody's wearing a face pass, you know, you have no way of being able to read lips or, or begin to communicate. And we already find that people who are deaf or hard of hearing globally, they're often excluded from healthcare practices, because people don't understand them. They don't speak sign language, nobody speaks the same language. And they can assume there's something wrong with what's trying to be communicated rather than the fact that the communication method is breaking down. So yeah, it is baking in these problems. But if I may, it's also creating opportunities. So we are also seeing that the great thing about people with disabilities when you when you get to the very bottom of what you know, my quote at the bottom of the pyramid, is you find immense resilience and ability to adapt to situations and we're finding we did a survey recently, just a very short survey, and we found a number of really interesting examples where people have pivoted in business and management But also just in small communities to help each other to to find ways to overcome the kind of more systematic barriers that they're facing. So I do see opportunity as well, in any crisis, there's opportunity, but it's how we leverage those opportunities into into a system that that can bounce back quickly.


Vivienne Parry  15:17

And one of the optimistic points that we have seen clung to is that actually people with disabilities have become more visible. People are helping in a way that they weren't before the coronavirus, because people's needs have suddenly become much more apparent.


Cathy Holloway  15:36

Yeah, and I think there's maybe more empathy. So, you know, I've had many arguments with many people down through the years about things like inclusive employment. So people might argue for being able to work from home, or, especially, you know, you might think an argument like that in somewhere like London is, is one argument, that if you go to say, what I do a lot of work in Nairobi. And if you go to there's an informal settlement there called Kibera. And there's no accessible way of getting from Kibera into the centre of the city, there's, there's just no way it's, you'd have to have a taxi. And of course, you're never going to be able to afford a taxi if you didn't think about it. So there was no way for you to get access to work outside of Kabira. If you will, say, for example, a wheelchair user, not without help. And now I find that people are a beginning to realise that there's a way of all we can all work from home so bit, but also there's the empathy, I think of realising the difficulties, because everybody's sort of being disabled by COVID. So even if you don't classify or class yourself as a person with disability, because the environment has changed, your ability to interact in that environment has completely changed. And so for for years and years, you know, we've been arguing a beyond the social model of disability where you're looking at, people are only disabled because they have a certain set of capabilities. And the set of capabilities we ask for you to partake in a conversation or go to work are different. And now I think people are seeing that they're locked into their home. So what is it like to be locked into a home for four months and not be able to get access and and i think people can begin to empathise maybe in a way that they weren't able to before, but also see the opportunities where they weren't able to see them before.


Vivienne Parry  17:20

It is really interesting how the great lie about home working has been exposed to be a lie. Because previously, people with disabilities were told that homemaking simply wasn't possible, and that people wouldn't be productive if they were at home. And both those things have resoundingly proved to be untrue.


Cathy Holloway  17:39

Yeah, they have been proved to be untrue. And go a step further and say that it's almost like people are working too much. Now, you know, we all have worked before, but we've reached a peak work, that's quite impressive. And I do wonder sometimes about the health implications long term of that. But I do think that there is definitely this opportunity for getting a balance vite, between long term working from home, as well as in a more collective working in an office.


Vivienne Parry  18:08

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been irritated by calls of going back to work when we've never worked at home, but I


Cathy Holloway  18:16

think it's probably the the end, it's quite, it must be very frustrating, though, because I suspect the country and the population around the world is divided. So some people hear that, hear that, and they have no opportunity to go back to work and it feels hopeless, whereas other people seem to be doing the job of two people. And unfortunately, as Henrietta says, you know, the economies are shrinking. And that is putting huge pressure that we can't seem to hire extra people to take on the extra work because there's no money to do so. And that shrinking economies, I think, is also having an impact on a lot of our work when we work with them. Overseas aid, you know, people seem to offset GDP contraction means that we have less money to give an aid. And there's also this nationalism thing that seems to be the surgery where people don't believe we should give aid, we should look after ourselves first. And I'd really strongly support what we said about partnership. And about the only way for us as a global community to come out to COVID is to build stronger partnerships and overcome those inequalities. We have to keep going against the gradient because the moment normally when countries go from being a low income country to a middle income country, disabled people are further left behind. And so if we allow that gradient to continue out of COVID, we're going to be in a very disastrous place, I think, both morally and socially.


Vivienne Parry  19:41

Thank you, Kathy. You're listening to Coronavirus the whole story podcast brought to you by UCL Minds. If there's a question about Coronavirus you'd like our researchers to answer, email us at minds@ucl.ac.uk or tweet at UCL Okay, Tom, so Kathy and Henrietta have covered the inequalities caused by Coronavirus. But I'm pinning the rosettes on you have solutions math? How do we coordinate a global response that helps to end rather than perpetuate the net cadore way that Coronavirus has hit countries?


Tom Pegram  20:23

Well, I think that many of the structures and institutions required to coordinate a global response to exist. I mean, the issue perhaps is something of a lack of imagination in terms of what coordinating a global exit strategy from this pandemic would actually look like. Certainly, COVID has been big enough to demonstrate the systemic fragilities that we're dealing with here, deeply in terms of say supply chains, also in terms of course of some social breakdown of social fabric within countries issues, which Henrietta and Kathy have have raised. But it doesn't seem as yet that it's really led to a ramping up of political will to invest in the kind of structures that do exist to invest in those structures to ensure that they can actually confront and tackle this, this global problem with obviously, the who the World Health Organisation is a key actor in this space. And it has struggled to step up to the daunting challenge posed by COVID. But of course, we can't place the blame all at the door of the who


Vivienne Parry  21:26

know they've been thoroughly undermined by Trump, haven't they?


Tom Pegram  21:29

Well, indeed, I mean, it's coming for a lot of criticism for his deferential posture towards China during the onset of the pandemic. And certainly there are valid questions as to whether the who could have played a more optimal role during that critical window for early detection and prevention of a pandemic. I mean, if an epidemic is predictable, which many did predict that this would happen, that a pandemic should be preventable, but I think one has to nuance that picture quite a lot. And many of the critics have who do fail to mention the fact that its activities are almost entirely dependent upon cooperation by Member States. And that Corporation has simply been withdrawn by by major powers. And of course, the Trump administration has withdrawn all funding which amounts to a 15% cuts to the who budget during a crisis situation.


Vivienne Parry  22:17

And we've seen really quite distressingly, I think how many countries have been stockpiling these that PP, and potentially useful medicines during the coronavirus crisis? How can we ensure that low middle income countries have access to a vaccine or indeed the other things that they need to deal with the pandemic once one is developed?


Tom Pegram  22:43

Yes, I mean, this is a really, really important issue. And of course, who is facilitating what it calls Kovacs, which is a programme to try and ensure universal access to vaccines once and if they should come onto the market. But we have seen extraordinary scenes where the US has been accused of modern piracy by burden authorities for diverting shipments of PP on air strips around the country around the globe. And there's a real danger that this kind of mutual suspicion among states is going to make it much harder to coordinate universal access to vaccines, especially for poorer countries. And rich countries do have form here and during the 2009, h1 and one pandemic, which countries did basically crowd out poor countries in the vaccine marketplace, particularly these advanced purchase agreements. These kinds of drivers are key drivers of inequities that need to be tackled in any kind of Global Access agreements. And there are many people who are advocating for a global access agreement among states and that could potentially underpin a globally fair allocation system around vaccines. But it is again going to require significant political will, I suppose in terms of how we convince decision makers to invest that political will, it's crucial that that we do realise that we are all in this together that it is in the national interest of planners all over the globe in whatever country they may find themselves in to get vaccines to countries that are perhaps later in the curve, particularly poor countries, as there really is no solution that isn't a solution for everybody. Coming back to this issue of kind of a poverty of imagination default, sort of default policies such as herd immunity really speaks to these notions of national exit strategies. But I would suggest that there is no real national exit strategy here. Ultimately, the solution is going to have to work in Bangladesh as much as it works in Berlin, because if we don't have we don't have access to vaccines, we don't have a solution in Bangladesh, then Berlin won't be it won't be safe to open.


Vivienne Parry  24:52

And we shouldn't forget either that vaccines don't work as effectively in all geographies, and that Some vaccines may be more effective, therefore, in some countries and others, and you need to develop vaccines that are effective for different geographies. And if it's for some of the lower middle income countries, those vaccines never get developed.


Tom Pegram  25:13

Yes. So that also raises important questions around which actors are going to be developing these vaccines, and issues around market failure. I mean, it is notable that there is no medically proven vaccine as yet for any type of human coronavirus. And although the SARS and MERS outbreaks were very significant and did lead to the death of around 1600 people, they did not actually generate sustained private funding for vaccine research and development. So we're really going to need to dig deep and to identify where all those innovative mechanisms for raising funds for vaccines will will be needed and will indeed need to be tailored to the context within which they're going to be access to implemented


Vivienne Parry  25:56

now, Tom, I promised that we would inch towards suggesting some solutions, and you told us a lot about the problems help us towards their solutions. What do you think should be done?


Tom Pegram  26:09

Well, I think that you know, the, the pandemic, it's not a black swan events. As I say this was predictable, Ian golden, many health specialists risk analysis, were predicting a pandemic as a significant catastrophic risk, at least for the last decade, and certainly after SARS. And in many ways, we do have the infrastructure, the institutions articulated across levels of governance from the sub national, all the way up to the most global, for example, the World Health Assembly, which falls part of the who is one of the few sort of deliberative Parliament's we chambers that we have at the global level. And the who, of course, does have many specialist experts. And it has been engaged actively in pandemic preparedness with countries over recent years. The issue is that countries have often failed to follow who recommendations that the funding has not been forthcoming, to the who the cost for pandemic preparedness is estimated at around $3.6 billion. And the who pandemic preparedness funds has never, has never achieved that sort of level of funding. So it's not as if we don't know what has to be done. This isn't the kind of complex global risk, which really, in some ways, challenges our ability to understand it and to devise responses. And I would suggest ecosystem collapse, climate change these, these issues have a complex dimension, which makes it incredibly challenging. To respond adequately. I was just a pandemic is not necessarily a backlog of complexity, although some of the second and third order effects such as food insecurity, such as possible conflicts, and these are highly complex system effects. But nonetheless, I think we do have systems blueprints in place, perhaps on a more sort of global scale and and looking looking ahead into this century and picking up a bit on the on the the importance of partnership that Henrietta and Kathy have raised. I would say that, you know, the question of how do we build backdoors raised the important problem is, well, there is not really a we as yet, right now, there is no central global authority that really represents us. There's no global democratic decision making process with the capacity to deal with these kinds of global problems. So what we have is millions of people and disparate groups making decisions about their lives, and those of their loved ones as best they can, sometimes in places where states are really failing to manage these kinds of big risks. And I think this is perhaps the major structural challenge which confronts global governance this century. And not just in in terms of global health


Vivienne Parry  28:58

hammer, sir, what would you add to that? How are we going to build back particularly improving public services to create a more equitable world,


Henrietta Moore  29:10

I think there are several things we can do. The most important thing is that we actually make an investment into people's capacities and capabilities to respond not just to this crisis, but to the future crises that will come because this isn't going to be the only virus that we're going to be dealing with in the in the next few years. And I think then we can do a lot. So for example, if we were to invest in the sort of care system, particularly in the in the UK, there's been a really nice report that came out in the last few days by the women's budget group that said, if we made an investment in social care in the UK, it would produce 2.7 times as many jobs as an equivalent investment in construction. So we can start thinking more about how do we invest in the quality of people's lives, and then the things they need to have quality of life as a person thinking, how can we run economic systems as efficiently as possible, and extract as much as we can from them without any cost really to ourselves, which is what we've been doing up to now. And there's been a very nice as well analysis by the economist, Danny Roderick, who said, If you understand globalisation at the moment, and the critique that people are making with globalisation, as we've been running it, as currently really been about global trade and about finance, again, about making as much money as we can out of the system, but supposing we have a global system, where at the core of it, instead of having finance, we have the World Health Organisation, we had health, health was the key thing that held us all together, as we try to negotiate these kinds of relationships. And we privilege that and the well being of people and planet, over the question of how much money we're making all the time. And as you begin to see these kinds of ideas spin out into other things like green deals, actually moving to a kind of carbon neutral, living a form of carbon neutral living, and getting local communities involved in planning how that would happen. And having distributed energy systems and new transport systems, all of these things will not only create jobs, but they will make a massive difference to the long term sustainability of our communities and indeed, of our planet. Because, as you realise, the very fact that we're dealing with the problem with COVID-19 is partly because of the way we treat the natural world. It's because we keep cutting down forests and turning land into built infrastructure and so on. So as we push more and more and more into the resources that the planet has, we bring ourselves more and more into contact with new and different kinds of viruses.


Vivienne Parry  31:46

Kathy, what about you?


Cathy Holloway  31:47

So one of the things that we're seeing through the 80 2030 programme, and also the covert action programmes, so they're both funded by the FC TF, but by UK aid, and one of the things we're finding is that resilient manufacturing chains can be better introduced to local production and



local systems.


Cathy Holloway  32:06

And when we then use local production and local systems to produce things, for disabled people, they're actually more in the loop of the design, and they tend to enjoy those designs better. So before covid, we'd been trialling new designs of assistive technologies that were more locally appropriate. Work could be more fit for purpose for different, different environments, but also could be repaired locally. And that has brought out a sense of community and a sense of wanting to use a device. And I think when you step back from the this current pandemic, we as Henry answer says, we have to look at new ways of doing things which are global, but which have local impact, and which allow local economies and local communities to thrive. And I believe there's a different way of doing that, through tailor production, but also through things like overcoming stigma together, learning together from what we've encountered, to COVID, and beginning to look at more inclusive ways of how we plan our work, how we plan our budgets, how we set up policies, so that we aren't more shock resistance COVID is just a shock to our global system. But actually, if you've been studying disability, for any length of time, you could have told anybody that these things were here and and I'm sure if if you were studying any other vulnerable group, you would have known these these vulnerabilities are there in the system. And therefore we need to learn from that and build more inclusive, robust systems for the future.


Vivienne Parry  33:42

Fantastic stuff. Thank you all so much. And before I sign off today, I've got some exciting news to share. UCL will be exploring issues like COVID and global inequalities and many, many more during its upcoming Beyond Boundaries conference on the UN Sustainable Development Goals from the 19th to the 29th of October, and you can find out more and register for sessions at UCL beyond boundaries.eventbrite.co.uk you've been listening to Coronavirus the whole story. The episode was presented by myself Vivienne Parry produced by UCL with support from the UCL Health of the Public and UCL Grand Challenges and edited by Cerys Bradley. Our guest today were Professor Dame Henrietta Moore, Professor Cathy Holloway and Dr Tom Pegram. And if you'd like to hear more of these podcasts from UCL Minds, of course, you would subscribe wherever you download your podcasts or visit ucl.ac.uk forward slash Coronavirus. This podcast is brought to you by UCL Minds bringing together UCL knowledge, insights and expertise through events, digital content and activities open to everyone. Thank you very much. Hope to be with you again soon