The Bartlett


Transcript: How should we heat our homes?

Exploring the possibilities for a more sustainable future and what barriers lie in the way.


heat, landlords, homes, energy, house, heating, electricity, people, installers, heating system, ucl, pay, district heating, christoph, transition, fossil fuels, radiators, bartlett, question, big


Christoph Lindner, Jez Wingfield, Jenny Crawley

Christoph Lindner  00:04

Hello, and welcome to Building Better, a podcast about the human spaces and urban landscapes that we build worldwide in order to ask the question, "how can we build better?" My name is Christoph Lindner and as well as being your host for this podcast. I'm also the Dean here at UCL Bartlett's Faculty of the Built Environment. In each episode, I will be sitting down with other members of this community to explore new ideas on some of the world's most important challenges, bringing together multidisciplinary perspectives and radical thinking from some of our world-leading experts.

Christoph Lindner  00:41

And in this month's episode, I'm asking the question "how will we heat our homes in the future?" And who better to answer this question than two researchers from the UCL Energy Institute, a world-leading initiative, delivering learning research and policy support on the challenges of Climate Change and energy security.

Christoph Lindner  01:00

So let me start by introducing my guests, and my first guest this month is Dr. Jenny Crawley. Jenny is a Research Fellow in Energy and Buildings. Her work focuses on the built environment in the transition to a low carbon energy system. Alongside her research, Jenny is also the academic manager of two EPSRC Centers for Doctoral Training, which are facilitating research into energy demand and resilience. I'm also joined by Dr. Jez Wingfield, a Senior Technician in Physical Building Performance. And Jez is a Materials Scientist with over 20 years experience working on building energy performance. He is a Chartered Engineer, and professional member of the Institute of Materials, Minerals, and Mining. Jez is currently working with others in the UCL Energy Institute on a major project developing methods and protocols to measure the heat loss characteristics of occupied dwellings.

Christoph Lindner  02:02

So we have two very qualified very interesting guests. And before we talk about the future of energy, perhaps we could talk about the present, and if you don't mind me asking, I'd love just to hear how do you both currently heat your homes? Jenny?

Jenny Crawley  02:17

Yeah, so, it's quite an interesting comparison between myself and Jez here. Because I part of the old way of doing things, and Jez is part of a new way of doing things. I live in one of the 85% or so of UK homes, which have a gas boiler gas, central heating, and we switch it on in the morning, and we switch on in the evening during winter, or if we get cold working from home, and if our one year old son is in we have it on, but we're really reluctant to use it because it burns fossil fuels. But on the other hand, we want to stay warm, so we've got this kind of constant trade off. Jez's system, I think is much more exciting.

Jez Wingfield  02:57

So like Jenny, I used to have a gas boiler. I've got a relatively new house, it's 10 years old, and the house came with the gas boiler, like nearly all new houses in the UK. But last year, I made the decision to actually make a big change. And that change was to replace the gas boiler with an air source heat pump. An airsource heat pump basically takes heat from the air outside, essentially compresses it and puts it into your house. And that cost me a lot of money. That was about 12,000 pounds. So it was a big investment. But over the last year, it's been worth it. It's been basically transformative. So now I have a house that's warm all the time, day and night, I don't have to think about the heating, or don't have to think about the hot water. It is just absolutely amazing. And this, I think is one of the technologies that's going to be coming to the fore as we think about the transition to net zero carbon.

Christoph Lindner  03:48

So it's really interesting to have two energy scientists, one using an old school approach to heating and one with the new school approach to heating, how many kinds of heating are there, generally speaking, so if you want to think about options in your home, how many sorts of options do you have, let's start maybe, in the UK?

Jez Wingfield  04:07

There are lots of options. So, you can basically burn things, so you can burn gas in a boiler, you can burn coal, or wood in an open fire or in a wood burner, or you can use electricity and you can transform that electricity into heat either using direct electric immersion or direct electric through sort of fan heaters or resistance heaters or you can actually use that electricity much more efficiently with a heat pump, so what I've got, or you can have something like a district heating system. So district heating system is where you take the heating system out of the house and put it in some central place and you serve that heat to the houses through basically pipe work in the ground.

Christoph Lindner  04:49

And Jenny, you sound maybe just a little bit not in love with your heating system. And so given that you know so much in this area, what is it that stops you and maybe other people like you from changing to a more modern or more energy efficient system.

Jenny Crawley 05:04

So this is a really interesting question... So  the modern gas boiler has evolved around the sort of lives that people, I would say, have had up to now. So they're really quick at getting going, you can put them on just when you get in the home and turn them off just when you leave for work. So they match up very well to when you need the heat. They're pretty cheap to run, and pretty cheap to buy, as well. So they've kind of evolved to match our lives. Now in the future, we anticipate more people to work from home. And as I said, me and my husband sit there thinking, "mmm shouldn't really put the heating on but pretty cold working from home..." Jez doesn't even have to think about this, because he has the type of system where it's on all the time. And it's just kind of slowly taking over providing a really nice, comfortable heat. So he doesn't kind of face these trade offs of kind of, should I fire up the system, or should I leave it off, it just you know, likes to run all the time. So I'd say that's one kind of barrier, another barrier is cost. So since we don't really pay properly, for the environmental impact of fossil fuels in our energy bills, at the moment, if we did, then low carbon systems would be a lot more attractive. But as it stands, we need a way to finance a transition to (kind of) most people on these low carbon systems, which is going to make everything more expensive for more people. So a big challenge is how do we fund that as a nation.

Christoph Lindner  06:31

I want to contribute to this story of personal heating systems, because while you were both describing your energy setups, I was reflecting on my own. And so I rent a home here in London and I have little to no say over the energy system that's in the home and opportunities to upgrade or change it. But what I do know is that it's a lot like yours, Jenny and I spend most of the day, particularly over the last year when I'm working from home in the pandemic, wrestling between guilt, discomfort and heat. You know, and it comes with this sort of smart app on my phone that makes me think I'm being somehow more efficient, because I'm tapping my phone instead of tapping the thermostat on the wall. But what I'm really doing is flip flopping back and forth between turn the heat on a bit when my fingers get cold, turn off again, because I think I'm warm... oh, no, I'm cold again, turn it back on, I'm starting to suspect that that's a really terrible way to approach heating my house.

Jez Wingfield 07:23

Yeah, before I had the heat pump installed, I was pretty much the same as you Christoph. I was feeling really guilty most of the time... At the start of the pandemic, so we were all working at home myself, my partner was sitting there in the office, all we did, we went out and bought a little electric oil heater, stuck that in the office and had it on its lowest setting and just let that sit there in the background. Everywhere in the house was absolutely freezing (laughs) but it was nice and warm in the office. And that's the sort of trade off. I used to have to make, but I don't now.

Christoph Lindner  07:50

So you're definitely painting a compelling picture there Jez, and if we start to look at the larger picture, sort of national scene in the UK, all our homes together, how important is it that we actually make a kind of joined up coordinated transition into better energy efficiency?

Jenny Crawley 08:10

It is very important because heating of buildings is representing about a quarter of our national greenhouse gas emissions. And yet people like Jez are very rare, the take up of low carbon heating isn't happening on its own. And something kind of bigger and higher and more coordinated is going to be needed to make this kind of very essential transition come about, you know, and the question is who should manage that? And how should that be deployed. But I think we all agree that something needs to happen and it needs to happen quite fast.

Jez Wingfield 08:43

Yeah, and I think the other issue is that if we are to sort of put this out nationwide, there's a lot of investment that needs to go on behind the scenes, very big investment. So if we want to invest in heat pumps we have to invest in the renewable electricity generation, partly, but we also have to invest in the electricity network. The network as it currently is, wouldn't be able to cope with all that extra demand. So that has to be upgraded to take account of that. But the alternatives, for example, one of the other alternatives is repurposing the existing natural gas grid for hydrogen, but that also requires extra investment. So because of the relative inefficiency of boilers versus heat pumps, we would need five or six times the actual generation capacity in the electricity network to make that happen. So there are a lot of investment decisions to be made. And actually, they need to be made fairly soon and actually people don't really know the answers as far as I'm aware. So that's a big problem for us.

Christoph Lindner  09:39

So that does sound rather daunting. And if I understand correctly, what you're saying is that we, in the UK, like many other countries would need to make these large, upfront investments that represent a commitment to better more sustainable ways of using energy. Why aren't we doing it? What are the blocks? Is it political? Is it technological? I imagine finance is a big part of it, but do you have a sense of what is impeding or slowing us down?

Jenny Crawley 10:08

That's right. So as I said earlier, Climate Change isn't priced into what we're currently paying for fuel and so in that way, artificially, we're being kind of held back and kept on these kind of high carbon systems. Where if Climate Change were really priced in, we would be paying a lot more for our energy anyway. But I just wanted to say it's not all this kind of "oh no, we've got to change everything to be low carbon for heat", if you think about the other changes that are happening at the same time, so there's a lot going on in transport at the moment, trying to make that largely run off electricity. A lot of these upgrades that we're going to be needing anyway, like Jez was talking about the electricity network, these things are going to be happening anyway, for the purposes of transport. So actually, if the different sectors can work together some of these extra costs, which as you said, Christoph, were a big barrier can be shared between different sectors of the economy.

Christoph Lindner  11:01

So do you see the COP26 Climate Change Conference that's coming up in Glasgow in the autumn as a major opportunity to advance this conversation?

Jez Wingfield  11:12

Certainly, I mean, different countries sharing their experiences of what they've done, what they're thinking about doing and their plans going forward, certainly will help, at least the UK make those decisions. For example, if we look at the case of Denmark... Denmark, in the energy crisis of the 1970s, made a completely different decision to the one the UK made. We made the decision to go for natural gas as the way forward at that time. In Denmark, they made the decision to go for district heating. So they put all their efforts into building a massive district heating network across Denmark. I think in Denmark, about 60% of houses are connected to the district heating network. And originally that was fired by fossil fuels that evolved over time into CHP, so plants that generate both heat and electricity. But now they're actually able to now start putting in streams, waste streams of heat into that network, they're putting in renewable streams into that network, and weaning themselves off fossil fuel. And they've been able to do that, because they've had that network developed over the last sort of 30, 40, 50 years, we're having almost to start from scratch, although we do actually have this residual natural gas grid, which we think, can we make use of that, or we have the electricity network, and we want to make use of that. So learning from other countries is critical, and COP26 will help us do that.

Christoph Lindner  12:29

And it sounds like there is a real need to plan and think about the future in a very active way now.

Christoph Lindner  12:37

So you're listening to Building Better: the Bartlett Podcast. This is a podcast brought to you by The Bartlett Faculty of the built Environment at UCL. If there's a question about life and research at the Bartlett, you'd like us to answer, email us at Bartlett.comms@ucl.ac.uk. Or you can tweet at @BartlettUCL.

Christoph Lindner  13:00

So we've talked a lot about the current situation... if we start thinking now about the future, I suppose the big question on my mind is okay, thinking 10, 20, 30 years down the road, how will we be heating our homes in the future?

Jenny Crawley  13:15

Right, so the main candidate is what Jess has already been describing, which is called air source heat pumps. And this would mean that kind of most houses powered the homes pretty much all by electricity. And if you think also their cars and transport by electricity as well. And those two things can interact as well. So your car can act as a battery, perhaps for your house. And they'll just be a lot more connectedness between kind of the different ways in which we use energy in our lives. And so it's quite likely that we will actually all be more comfortable, because we'll all be running our systems more continuously, probably a bit warmer as well, because it's how air source heat pumps like to run. And there might be a lot less mold problems as well, because we'll all be kind of heating our homes more constantly. This is really, really different from how we do things now, a kind of different way of living. But if you go to countries where they kind of use the systems, a lot more of, the Scandinavian countries, and it's a very kind of nice different sort of comfort, big radiators or underfloor heating and nice comfortable conditions kind of all the time, very different from what we're used to.

Christoph Lindner  14:22

Well, I love the idea of moving from a high carbon system we have now to a low mold future that you're describing. But as you're talking, it makes me wonder if you know we have some ideas of what the good technologies are that we can grow and bring in our homes in the future but who's going to decide how will this work? You know, what will someone come knocking on our door saying it's time to upgrade? Will there be national or regional plans or programs that kind of go through neighborhoods and help people upgrade together? Or will individuals just be left on their own and have to go and take out loans and figure out how to do it and I asked this question because you know along aside the issue of energy efficiency, there's also the issue of architectural design and how that fits into things. Are we going to be building new homes that are designed just in the way that the space and materials are laid out to be more energy efficient? Or do we really need to be focusing on keeping our current housing stock and making that work by the introduction of new technologies? What do you think?

Jez Wingfield  15:20

We have a very bad record in the UK of doing this. So we... if you look at the Green Deal, and then on the more recent Green Homes Grant, they haven't worked very well. And those are supposed to be the sort of the key methodologies for people to start improving their homes. So we need to think about how those processes will work. I suspect, there'll be a combination of things. So social landlords have a big role here to play in sort of demonstrating how this can be done on a large scale. And suddenly, you can see in the press, some of them are starting to think about that. And they have Net Zero programs, and they're recruiting heavily people into the sorts of positions that make that transition. But I think it's the individual homeowner or the individual that rents themselves, how people like that will get onto this retrofit bandwagon I think is a more difficult question. I suspect it's gonna to have to be tied somewhat to the way the energy and heat is sold. And we could move to a different way of delivering heat. So you might have a future where we actually buy heat as a service? In the same way as people are starting to think about buying transport as a service. So you no longer own longer own a car, you decide you want to go somewhere that's provided as a service to you. And it might be the same for heat that might be provided. So someone will upgrade your house for you and you will pay for that heat, and they will recoup the costs over time. That is possibly a future scenario.

Christoph Lindner  16:41

And do you think we could get that to work for landlords? So if you imagine and I hate to characterize landlords in an unsympathetic way, there lots of different landlords, and mine actually is fantastic, but if you think of a city like London, where buying a home is is increasingly difficult, and it has been for a long time, and that's just getting worse... So more and more people are renting and more and more of the available homes are being turned into rental properties. It seems like a really key demographic that we need to reach to help this kind of transition are landlords and what's the advantage to a landlord to invest in more energy efficiency? How do we convince that particular demographic to join in this conversation?

Jenny Crawley  17:21

How it's been done in the last few years is actually through regulation. So not being allowed to let out properties that are F or G rated. We don't know how it's going to go regarding how the landlords are actually incentivized to install the new technologies in people's houses. But I should say that another group, apart from landlords, who we shouldn't forget, but who aren't the house holders themselves are the installers of the technologies. And it's been shown time and time again, that installers are absolutely key to this whole thing. Because the homeowners or the landlords will ask the advice of the installers. And the installer will say, "well, you could have a new boiler, you could have this new electric boiler, you could have this heat pump, or you could try and connect to this district heating scheme". And actually, they're the ones who really have a lot of influence over whoever it is that's making decisions, who's got the money about what to have next. And so yes, we mustn't forget the kind of supply chain and the installers as a real key to making this happen.

Jez Wingfield  18:22

And the other instrument is through financing, so financial companies now are already looking at almost their exposure to carbon in their portfolios. And that includes obviously mortgages. So we will see more green mortgages, both for individuals and for landlords coming along. And those green mortgages will demand a certain level of efficiency. So those sorts of mechanisms may come to the fore as well.

Christoph Lindner  18:45

So I know this is taking a step back in our conversation, it just suddenly... I've been thinking about installation of things and I'm just thinking in very selfish way about my own home and maybe I could abuse having this expertise in the room to answer a simple question. I've had to move a few times since coming to London, and each time getting... signing up for a new energy plan. It's very confusing, and all these websites and everybody makes claims about their energy being from sustainable, renewable energy and so on. And the best rates appear to come with smart meters. And what I've always wondered in a really naive way is if that's the best rate, why? Is there a trick in this? Does it benefit the consumer? Does it, does it help in the way that we use energy? Why are smart meter rates more affordable? And is there a twist in this?

Jenny Crawley  19:30

So this is something that me and Jez are actually researching at the moment?

Christoph Lindner  19:34

Oh, fantastic.

Jenny Crawley  19:34

(Laughing) basically even if you're on 100% renewable tariff, what that actually means is that you're paying somebody to build some wind turbines and solar panels, they're not necessarily supplying that same energy to your house. Okay? And what you're actually using at  each hour of the day can be from a different source. So it's likely that in the middle of the night, you know, some of it will come from Nuclear Energy, if the winds blowing, in maybe the middle of the day, your energy you'll actually be using might be wind energy, or solar energy. When you're cooking your dinner at the same time that the rest of Britain is cooking their dinner, it's probably going to be fossil fuels because everybody's demanding energy. So they have to go and turn a load of stuff on. And so what me and Jez are looking into at the moment is, how can things that use electricity be turned off, for the purposes of kind of a few hours in the evening, so that we don't have to turn on more fossil fuels in order to supply everyone. And it turns out that heating is really quite suitable for this. And if you can get yourself on a sort of tariff, where you pay very little for electricity, when it's renewable. But in the hours of the day, where everyone else is demanding it, and it's fossil electricity, you would pay a lot, and if you can avoid using electricity during that time, you can actually spend less on electricity, and also just make sure you're using renewable. So it benefits everyone.

Christoph Lindner  20:32

So I'm wondering for our listeners, if they're interested in trying to understand better that where that energy is coming from that they use and create a plan for their energy use that is more efficient or sustainable, are there resources that they can turn to? So I had a really naive question, if I didn't happen to have you in the room to answer it for me, I wouldn't know where to go.

Jez Wingfield  21:26

I mean, there are blogs and stuff that you can go to where where individuals'll tell you where to think about these things. But generally speaking, the government isn't really very good at this. I mean, I tried myself using the government sponsored tools to decide what I should be doing. And it just doesn't work, even the energy performance certificate, which all new houses have to have. And if you rent a house, you have to have, none of those certificates recommended for my house to have a heat pump. So if you look at the tools that we currently use, you end up making the wrong decision. So yeah, that is part of the problem. Where do we go for advice? And how good is the advice that we actually get?

Christoph Lindner  22:04

Yeah, so where do we go, then we have existing government tools that aren't maybe fine tuned enough to give us solid advice. We have blogs and websites, which we can kind of Google and look for, but it's hard for non specialists to evaluate. I'm kind of wondering how do you dip your feet into the world of more efficient energy use if you're interested?

Jenny Crawley  22:26

Right. So this comes back to my point about the installers. So we can't expect every homeowner, every landlord every renter to be an expert in energy efficiency and new technology and the carbon intensity of the grid for the next 30 to 50 years. But we have to find somebody who knows, right. And it's been shown that when most people are looking, they would reach out to their installer. And their installer would be able to tell them for the type of house that they've got. Or they Yeah, they own someone else's living in kind of what's the best thing you can do.

Jez Wingfield  22:55

Part of part of the home is there are just not enough installers of these new technologies. So most of our installers or heating systems, our gas engineers, very few are familiar with what even heat pump technology is, and certainly wouldn't be able to do it. So that's one thing that has to change. But I'll just think about the other sources of of experience and there are networks of householders that have gone through this process themselves already, like myself. And there's a network called Super Homes, where people put on their web on this website, details of the house details of the journey that they've gone through to upgrade the house, not just in terms of heating system, but in terms of insulation, and using less water, all those sorts of things. And they have open homes, so certain days during the year, you can go and visit the house, look at what they've done speak to them. So those sorts of interactive sessions where you can speak to people who have done this already is, I think, quite useful, but it's very small. I mean, there aren't very many of these individuals out there who will let you go around the house.

Christoph Lindner  23:52

Thank you for that. For those inside tips. While I have you on the line, I hope it's not cheeky to ask you about something related to heat, which is cooling. Here in the UK for a lot of the year we need heat even right now in May, (laughing) I've still got the heat coming on at times. But in many parts of the world heat is not the challenge, cooling is the challenge. And I'm wondering if there are intersections or similarities between the approach to energy efficient heating and energy efficient cooling.

Jenny Crawley  24:17

Yeah, the obvious one is that for heating and cooling, the more energy efficient the building fabric, the less the need to heat or cool it. So if you can keep the heat in, in the case of heating, or if you can keep the heat out, in the case of cooling, then the actual kind of extra work you'll need to do from your system is going to be less. So we haven't really gone into it yet, but alongside this program of deploying new heating-cooling technologies, there needs to be accompanying work and making the building fabric more efficient to reduce the demand for the heat and the cool in the first place.

Christoph Lindner  24:57

So it sounds like this is an area where Engineering, Architecture and Design come in? Do you work with those kinds of specialists in your research?

Jenny Crawley  25:07

Absolutely. But also Social Science as well, is absolutely critical to this and how people adapt to really different and new ways of doing this. I mean, the one example we had earlier was how do you adapt from this very kind of peaky use of the heating technology, to what happens when you put in something that likes to be run all the time, but kind of on low, like a heat pump, and just a very different house that you end up with? Like Jez was talking about, and the very different ways or spaces, you might not just heat one space. Now you can heat the whole house (laughing) and wander round and have guests and they'd all be warm. So there's definitely a role for the Design Sciences, Architecture, Engineering, absolutely. But also the Social Sciences, the way spaces are used can be completely different.

Christoph Lindner  25:50

I'm so happy to hear that Social Science has an important role to play in this whole conversation. And it sounds Jenny, if I understand correctly, that what you're saying is that, you know, that there is a link between sustainability and lifestyle, of course, but also there's a behavioral dimension to this. And it's not just that the buildings that need to adapt and be retrofitted, in a way it's us as the occupants and users who also need to adapt and maybe in some loose way be retrofitted. And so Jez, I am wondering, you have this fantastic new system installed in a way you're able to kind of live in, in the subject of your research, how has having this new heating system change the way that you live?

Jez Wingfield  26:31

It's completely different. As Jenny mentioned, I now heat the whole house, whereas previously, obviously, of zoning the house because I mean, my house is full of gadgets, so I have wireless radiator valves, I've got monitoring systems, so I know exactly what my house is doing at any one time in any one place. So, before the heat pump, I basically had half the house was cold, because I didn't use the rooms. Now the whole house is warm all the time I can walk around to different parts of the house. So you're use of the space is completely different. But the sensation of heat is also completely different. So you no longer have radiators that are running it sort of 75-80 degrees C, I've now got radiators that most of the time are running at 30 degrees C, so you don't have that sensation of radiant heat that comes off the radiator in the same way, you know, the same sort of heat you're getting for fire, but it's not uncomfortable. It's just different. And again, trying to get that across to people about how they're living, because they used to this hot heat all the time and they can put their clothes over the top of the radiators and make them dry, etc. So, the way they would use the house would be different with these different technologies. And that's sort of something we need to get a grip on and understand.

Christoph Lindner  27:40

So that's something I really wouldn't have thought of. And I think it's kind of poetic and beautiful, the idea that there's a shift in the sensation of heat. And that is a kind of material experience that you have with a more energy efficient system. So that's another kind of benefit. It all sounds very compelling.

Christoph Lindner  28:00

Here at the Bartlett we'd like to think long, deep and hard about the future and so I'm wondering, what is one thing you think we need to do in order to build better in the future?

Jenny Crawley  28:11

As we've said earlier in the episode, all the different options for low carbon heating are going to cost more than we currently pay. So we do need a way to finance the transition, because it's not going to happen on its own. However, it's quite well established by lots of different research groups that paying for a clean energy transition is cheaper than paying to adapt to climate change. So I think we need to adopt this long term perspective of all the options cost money but if we do something about it now, we will save compared to leaving it and having to pay for it in the future.

Christoph Lindner  28:51

Sound advice. And what about you Jez - one thing that you could change to help us build better in the future?

Jez Wingfield  28:57

I mean, I'm going back to what what we've learned from from the Grenfell Inquiry and some of the really horrific findings of that, have come out of that so far. And that sort of links in with my own experience of basically measuring and monitoring buildings in the UK over the last 20 or so years. What I've observed is that frequently buildings just don't, they don't work in the way they should do. Partly because we don't put people and communities at the center of how we build, but from Grenfell, what we've learned is that there's a systemic problem within the construction industry, it just doesn't work properly. People don't talk to each other, people don't take responsibility. There are problems and issues with training and all sorts of problems. So I think if anything needs to fix, it's that cultural change within the construction industry in the UK, moving forward, that needs to happen, especially if we're going to get anywhere near net zero carbon and for things to actually work in the way we want them to work that needs to change.

Christoph Lindner  29:55

You've been listening to building better the Bartlett podcast.

Christoph Lindner  29:59

This episode was presented by myself Christoph Lindner, produced by UCL with support from the Bartlett Communications Team and edited by Cerys Bradley.

Christoph Lindner  30:09

It featured music from Blue Dot sessions with additional sounds recorded by Paul Bavister.

Christoph Lindner  30:15

I was joined today by Dr. Jenny Crawley and Dr. Jez Wingfield.

Christoph Lindner  30:19

If you would like to hear more of these podcasts, subscribe wherever you download your podcasts or visit ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/buildingbetter, or follow us @BartlettUCL.

Christoph Lindner  30:34

This podcast is brought to by the Bartlett, UCL's Global Faculty of the Built Environment and UCL Minds. If you enjoyed this podcast also check out UCL Future Cities, a new series from UCL Minds exploring the complexity of urban living. Listen to cutting edge conversations from UCL experts who ask what the future of our cities might be, and how new research and applied innovation can help.

Christoph Lindner  31:01

We'll see you next month.

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