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The distinct skillsets of good mentoring
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Elaine Long
Welcome to The ECF Staffroom. I'm Elaine Long.
Mark Quinn
And I am Mark Quinn.
Elaine Long
We are programme leaders for the UCL Early Career Teacher Development Programme. Why are we in the staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems can be aired bluntly and where solutions can be explored.
Mark Quinn
Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come in the ECF Staffroom. We will hear from early career teachers themselves and from the mentors and induction tutors who support them. We will talk about all things ECF, the challenges and the joys. So, why don't you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit and sit down to half an hour of ECF Staffroom, chat.
Welcome to the ECF, staffroom Haili Hughes, with all the projects you're juggling at the moment, including being a facilitator on the ECF Programme. You must be well in need of a coffee. Is it coffee? Is that what you drink? Is that what we can offer you in the staff room?
Haili Hughes
Coffee, gin. A clandestine gin. Would that be allowed? I don't know.
Mark Quinn
I think that's probably against teacher standard 8, Haili. I don't think I can give you gin.
Haili Hughes
They always get me on that one.
Mark Quinn
Maybe an extra shot in the coffee. I can manage that.
Haili Hughes
That'd be lovely.
Mark Quinn
Do you take anything with your coffees or a biscuit there or?
Haili Hughes
Many biscuits, I think that's the problem. So, in this run up to Christmas, all willpower has disappeared, sadly.
Mark Quinn
The staff from cupboard is empty because you've eaten all the biscuits.
Haili Hughes
Indeed, yeah.
Long, Elaine
Maybe we need to do a special Christmas edition that's the ECF bar and I would definitely join you in there for a gin and tonic, Haili. That would really suit me and Mark and I are really nosey and we know our listeners are really nosey as well and we know that you've had a really interesting career today and we just wondered if you could tell us a little bit about that. What did you do before teaching? Where did teaching take you and what do you do now?
Haili Hughes
Absolutely. Yeah. So, as you kind of alluded to, I have had a long and winding road to get to the points that I'm at now. I think I must have some kind of, I don't know, revolutionists blood or something inside me somewhere because I can't really stick at anything for longer than about 10 years, usually. So, before I was a teacher, I was a national newspaper journalist, an infamous London tabloid newspaper that was closed down for phone hacking. Daren’t say the name.
I had a great time there. Did lots of things that I regret. Lots of things that I feel really enjoyed, but it was a hell of an experience. So, that's what I did. And then the newspaper was was closing down and I thought about the fact that I had an English degree and what on earth was I going to do with an English degree? So, I thought, you know what, let's have a go at teaching. Spent some time in a school helping out in my old secondary school, actually, which was funny being in the staff room with all of my old teachers and loved it.
Absolutely thought, Oh my God, this is what I was made to do. And then I taught for 15 years, 15 1/2 in fact, years and yes. So that's what I did then very quickly moved into leadership, found out it wasn't really for me. I missed the day-to-day classroom teacher job of really making a difference and getting to know children. Missed my own subject a lot of English as well and I feel like there's a constant and perhaps this is something I'll touch on later, but I feel like when you go into leadership there's like a constant battle almost to actually be a good teacher as well as an effective leader because you know, I used to find myself kind of setting the children off on independent tasks and getting time to check my emails and being more interested in my emails and what was coming through than actually my pedagogy and I hated that.
So I stepped back down, so to speak, to just, and I hate that phrase, just a classroom teacher because you are never just a classroom teacher. For the last nine years of my career and adored it, absolutely loved it. Then I wrote a couple of books and one of them being mentoring in schools, which I'm sure we'll talk about a bit later and had the opportunity to go and do lots of things that I'd probably only dreamed of, to be honest. You know, speaking all over Europe in schools and working with lots of colleagues in HE and then I joined Iris Connect as head of education and also the University of Sunderland. Initially as a PGC English lecturer but very quickly became principal lecturer in mentoring and professional development.
And this is where I am now with two careers that are separate but intersect on many, many different ways and consultancy on top of that as well.
Elaine Long
That sounds like a really, really interesting road you've taken and I know you're really passionate about writing, and one of the things that that comes across and all your interviews and you're writing is you're really passionate about making a difference.
I read recently that your PhD is focused on children that are left behind and that you're very passionate that we don't leave children behind in education. I wonder if you could just have the listeners a bit, a bit about that.
Haili Hughes
Yeah. So, that that wasn't my PhD. That was my last Masters degree. So, yeah, my my Ed D actually based on the effects of the COVID-19 school closures on experienced teachers, which has been really interesting. But no, you're absolutely right. My last Masters degree that I did, my psychology one was all about that. And yeah, it's just because the background I came from, I was the first person to go to school, post 16 in my family, Mum's a cleaner stepdad's a lorry driver.
You know, I really struggled with my own identity during school time. Very often, I think it was a misrepresentation, really, of kind of board use work on cultural capital whereby I grew up thinking that my background wasn't good enough, that, you know, I had to be ashamed of where I came from, I had to be ashamed of the fact that we didn't have books in my house and when I moved to London at the really young age of 21, I really tried to divorce myself. I've written about this on my blog, you know, really tried to divorce myself from my own background and a lot of the time at school, I spent being quite angry and misbehaving and not getting on with teachers. It was very much because of this liminal space that I felt like I existed in and still do exist in, to be honest.. I mean, I'm something I'm really passionate, is this idea about, kind of not letting disadvantage be a barrier for our children.
Elaine Long
I'm just thinking about our listeners. If you're younger self could go back and give your teachers a message. What would your younger self kind of say?
Haili Hughes
Oh God, I don't know, really. I mean, I mean, it's some of them follow me on Twitter, which is like, absolutely hilarious. So, I'll get kind of periodic messages from some of them who are sort of retiring now or lots of the head, teachers saying how proud they are of me, which is just lovely and one of my teachers who was at the time, Mrs Brettell, who was a geography teacher and is now a PRU head teacher, amazing woman.
She quite often posts on her Twitter saying, you know, I remember a quite angry, mouthy teenager that has turned out to be, you know, a reasonable human being and so yeah, I mean, I guess I would just say, sorry, guys, you know, I've turned out alright in the end, I hope.
Elaine Long
Yeah. And I guess the there's a lesson there, isn't there for the ECTs and teachers that in terms of seeing the best in people and recognizing what might be going on underneath.
Haili Hughes
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly that really. I think you know, there's a lot of sort of arguing and to and fro in that goes on Twitter and all the tribalism that comes with it about, you know, trauma, informed practices, etcetera. I'm not going to get into that debate actually but what I would say is that there can very often be some kind of underlying cause for challenging behaviour. Not always but there can be and I think it's important that we as teachers recognise that.
Mark Quinn
Yeah, absolutely and actually, just remember there's always a story behind the face, behind the person who turns up in your classroom and it's tough, isn't it, being a teacher, you know, you might be, especially if you're teaching secondary, when you've got hundreds of children, you know, and any single day, and you can't possibly know every story behind them. But at least if you've got that in your imagination is your teacher, you can imagine that there might be something going on, t's not just the student being naughty or hating your subject or you know there might be other things and it's not, it's usually not personal as well. If they're acting out in your class, it's not really about you or about you as a person. Although because it feels like that as a teacher, doesn't it? Because you invest so much in it as a teacher or you're of your personality, everything feels personal.
Haili Hughes
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think so. What we sometimes forget is that, you know, a lot of young people in secondary, especially, you know, the hormones are raging and, you know, they can't really modulate and control their feelings in the same way that we can as an adult and it's absolutely not personal. Although my goodness, after a tough week, you know, with a year 9 class for two hours on a Friday, it might seem that way. So, this is why I teaching is such a rollercoaster job, isn't it?
Mark Quinn
That's right and of course, there's nothing funnier than a year nine class last thing on a Friday as well.
Haili Hughes
Absolutely. I still chuckle when I think of some of the things that they say. You know, there are kids who are literally, like, stand-up comedians. It's brilliant.
Mark Quinn
Haili, you mentioned the book you mentioned your mentoring in schools’ book which I have in front of me and I've been doing my homework by rereading it, rereading it this week. It's really obvious that you've got a passion about mentoring, and of course that's the main reason, one of the reasons why we've invited you into the staffroom today and I noticed that in the construction of your book, you convened a focus group of ECTs to tell you what they think makes a good mentor. It’s really really interesting the things they say. They want their mentor to be impartial, approachable, passionate and remember what it like when they were a new teacher. I particularly like the ECT who said that they wanted their mentor to be a mini cheer leader. That’s a nice one.
So, with all of that, how would you define what a great mentor does or what a great is?
Haili Hughes
I would say that a good mentor has got kind of two distinct skill sets I would say. There's sort of the soft skills which are, you know, some of the things that you mentioned about being a cheerleader, being empathetic, you know, building trust and being able to be an active listener and to really listen. Because I think sometimes when you've been teaching a long time, you sort of might half listen and you're thinking about something else in the other side of your brain at the same time.
Or if you may be thinking about what you;re having for dinner or, you know or you're gonna be bringing Harry and Megan on Netflix or whatever later, you know, But you know, you really have to listen and then to not interrupt. All of these things setting granular targets. All of these things that you know, they're the bread and butter I would call of mentoring, all the soft skills.
Then we also now especially with the launching of the early career framework last year and the core content framework the year before. There are dogs in my office which is what you can hear so sorry about that.
Mark Quinn
We call it the school dog; we’ll just call it the school dog.
Haili Hughes
This, this iris connect, it’s a very dog friendly place to work. So, there's several running around and but I would say that there's that offer subset as well and there's that job around, you know, pedagogy and I would say that for me like mentors much more and more facilitators of pedagogical progress than they've ever been before.
So, you know, when I was a mentor for many, many years, for example, and I look back on the way that I mentored now and would I pass muster as kind of a perfect mentor today, by today's standards? Possibly not, because I didn't do as much modelling as I probably could. I didn't triangulate with research. Was I completely conversant with all of the evidence based underpinning the ECF and the CCF? Probably not. So, I think mentors have a huge job on their hands now and I think you know, obviously the DfE recognised that when they were trying to elevate the status of mentors and that's why we have this compulsory mandatory training that comes as part of programs like your own.
Mark Quinn
That's really, really interesting, isn't? I'm delighted that you drew attention to those two, there's two aspects of mentoring. I think the first aspect of mentoring we are very familiar with and actually we're familiar with it, but that doesn't make it easy. Not everyone wants to be that kind of person, wants to be that in tune type of person that's sounding board person, that person with those soft skills as you talked about. That's tough enough, actually.
Haili Hughes
It is. It is.
Mark Quinn
Umm, but, but of course, we've now made the job even harder, haven't we? You know, by saying, oh, you've got to keep in mind this curriculum as well, and you've got to talk about evidence informed or ECF informed practice and that is tough, it's really tough. It proves, doesn't it that mentoring really does matter, doesn't it? Do you think, could you say more about that, why you think mentoring matters so much? I realise that that's also the name of your magazine.
Haili Hughes
Yeah, I mean. Yeah, yeah. Oh, nice. Nice plug. I like that. Yeah, and yes. So, I'll talk about the magazine in seconds. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, like many who were trained in a certain time period. I finished my training year, my ITE year and I was pretty much lettered to sink or swim, to be honest.
I had a mentor who had a lot of the soft skills, although I hate that name for them because they obviously not soft skills because they're really important, they’re the bedrock. But you know, you know what I'm trying to get across, and I had a mentor, he was actually really good at those things but when it came to the kind of other part, that sort of theory into practice, the bridging piece. What maybe wasn't as good and because of that, I was left kind of floundering.
I learned a lot of things in my ITE year, some of which have now been debunked, but hey, that's the case with all research. We'll be saying the same things, I'm sure about things we're doing now in 20 years time. But you know, I'd left with a lot of ideas about research, but I had no idea about what the implications for that research were. in my classroom.
I needed somebody there to show me, hey, you learned about Socratic questioning. Well, actually, this is what Socratic questioning looks like in English with a year 9 class on a Friday afternoon, you know, I can give you an analogies, I can give you metaphors from my own practice and that for me is how mentors are important because mentors are the bridge between theory and practice. They're the ones who are deconstructing, discussing expert practice, you know, contextualising it, modelling it, practicing it with you. That's why, for me, they're vital. They're kind of like the scaffold, if you like, for a new teacher to walk alongside.
Elaine Long
It's interesting as well because you gave the example of an English example being subject specific. So, I think mentors are also that bridge between generic pedagogy and subject specific pedagogy as well. I agree with you, they play such a vital role, and the tension that you picked up on between being a mentor that teaches the curriculum and being a mentor that also helps an ECT as an individual to progress, those sort of softer skills. I think that's something that mentors on our program find hard because we recognise that tension in in some of the in some of the feedback. Have you got any advice for how people can balance that or how mentors can balance that in schools?
Haili Hughes
Yeah. I mean, it's really difficult and especially when, unfortunately I still hear that some mentors aren't being given the time to mentor appropriately and you know I think that's something that a lot of teaching school hubs are really struggling with because what, do you do? Where do you go from there? You know, they don't have this sort of legislative role where they can say like, actually, no, you are breaking the law, that you need to do this.
So, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise with schools entirely. They've got a huge number of staff off absent at the moment, it’s never really recovered from COVID. A lot of heads can't recruit, they’re struggling for budgets, like I get it 100%, not pointing fingers at anybody but really for mentors to be able to do exactly what you talked about, Elaine, with fidelity they need that time to be able to do that.
I think as you kind of touched on, obviously the ECF is generic and pedagogy and it has to be because I mean it would be like Tolstoy, wouldn't it if it was subject specific, you know, we'd be wedging the door open with it. So, that is where a mentor skill comes in really to be able to actually, it's that curse of the expert to be able to step back from your own practice and go well actually, how does that translate into my lessons in English? How does that translate to my lessons and EYFS? And obviously this is something that has come under scrutiny about the ECF, about its generic nature and I think now only a year into the proper rollout, we can see a lot more people writing about and talking about this subject specific element of it.
To be honest, that's why I think and I'm not just saying this because it is you 2 from UCL, but that's why I think that having this sort of face to face element of the ECF training is so important because, for example I have six ECT groups, six. Can you believe it? And two mentor groups. So, a year one, year two and I think that's what's so important about those days is that I have several people who might be doing history and they can chat about what they do in history and the implications for them. I have several people who might be doing PE and they can chat about, you know what question and great formative assessment looks like in PE and that for me, it's golden, it’s invaluable.
Elaine Long
So, as a facilitator then, is that something you're you'll advise breaking down your group into subject specific groups so that they can then look at the interplay between generic pedagogy and subject specific pedagogy because it's quite hard as a facilitator because I know I'm an English teacher like yourself and when I used to lead professional learning in school and when I talk about maths, I always used to give the same ropey example and then take me down to early years and I've got I've got nothing for you other than ultimate respect.
Haili Hughes
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Elaine Long
I have no examples because it's just so far out of my knowledge, you know, so it's interesting, I'm interested in how you say you deal with that as a facilitator.
Haili Hughes
Yeah. So, for example, we might talk about something generic terms and then I might ask them to reflect for a couple of minutes individually on what that means in their subject. Then I'll call perhaps and take some examples and other say, I take a mathematicians example and then I'd say, you know, Katie or whoever it might be. You're also a mathematician. Can you build on that? Would you challenge it? Would you do it slightly differently? And I think quite a lot of the ECTs in my groups have said that they just find it really interesting as well to actually think about the implications for other subjects.
Mark Quinn
Of course, of course. Exactly right. You know, if you're a maths teacher, you know the caricature it a bit. If you're a math teacher and you might not think that group work is your thing, but sitting next to you as a drama teacher for whom group work is the bread and butter of what they do. And you know, the opportunities to listen for 5 minutes to how drama teacher organises the collaborative learning could be the difference that a math teacher really needs of course vice versa.
Haili Hughes
Yes.
Mark Quinn
I think there's so many advantages to sitting side by side with colleagues who teach, particularly different subjects or a different phases, so important and that thing you do, to pick you up on that little bit Haili because you said that you would often ask an ECT to quote an example from their own subject about what this might mean. Do you have a pushback do you ever you know making sure that they're not just regurgitating someone nonsense they might have picked up from some you know some terrible teacher in the back of the room somewhere. How do you challenge them?
Haili Hughes
I think in a supportive way, but kind of a what if almost, you know, so, oh that's really interesting but what if you know and kind of putting it in that way?
Even the ECF itself does talk about in in standard 8, being critical consumers of research and I think that's really important. I think what I've been really cheered to see actually both in ECF delivery and in a NPQLTD delivery with a completely different provider is that actually that both have stressed that there isn't a one size fits all and that everything is contextual. I think NPQ especially has kind of quoted the Dylan William thing that everybody always quotes of you know, maybe Dylan William didn't even say it. He has a lot of misattributed quotes, but you know, for example, not everything works everywhere, but something works somewhere.
I think that dash is something to live by, isn't it? Because as we all know, those of us who've been practicing teachers and you might do something with the class and think I've cracked it, my goodness and then next lesson, it's back to square one again. So, yeah.
Mark Quinn
Dylan William. Everyone's most quotable academic.
Haili Hughes
Absolutely, yeah.
Mark Quinn
We need people like that. I think you've alluded to already Haili that the ECF generally and broadly across the country is not without its detractors. You and I are both aware that you know people on social media and elsewhere on the education press sometimes got prominent school leaders have talked about the extra burdens it's placed on their staff. Some of the criticism comes that the likes of us UCL, you know, regarded as kind of big hitters in this kind of centralization of professional development. So, just really interested in your perspective on that, where you stand in all of this?
Haili Hughes
Well, I mean obviously, I was a big supporter of the early career framework. I wrote a book about it and the reason why I was a big supporter of it was because I think we did need that consistency of approach across the country because it was like a postcode lottery as to whether you got a decent mentor or not and you know that can be the difference between somebody leaving after a year or somebody going on to have a positive impact on thousands of lives as a teacher over a career.
I thought it was much needed and I personally didn't see it as a straitjacket as or as a scaffold for mentors and a way of mentors getting the status and the kind of elevated prominence that they deserved and have deserved for many, many years. That's kind of that key to teach your attention, really. I'm very positive about it. Do I think I'm still positive about it? In many ways, yes. I think it does need adaptations and changes like any whole scale roll out of a policy that's got to be a one size fits all for very different context, and I think they're probably could be more in there about collaborative learning, if I'm completely honest about dialogue and oracy, I think there could be more in there that is more suited to a key stage one and EYFS model because there a lot of criticism is received, it is that it's very secondary centric and I can see how people might think that. But I think that I'm still largely positive about the early career framework.
What I do think and I don't mind saying this to you on the podcast, that I had a conversation with the DfE not too long ago where I was asked to give my feedback on the ECF and I did say in that and we'll say it very publicly, that I think more does need to be done about working in congruence with ITTE or the ECF, because one of the criticisms that's come out is that it's a regurgitation of a lot that was learnt at ITTE.
My perspective on that is that sometimes it is but on the other hand, the other side to that is that as teachers, we wouldn't expect to do something once with our children and for them to get the grips of it, and for me, in the CCF and in ITTE, you should be watching an expert colleague doing things and discussing it and deconstructing it and practicing it. In the ECF it is you doing it with the mentor more as a guide on the side would be my reading of it, so, that is how I would counteract those criticisms. But I do see that there could be that element of challenge I think in the ECF for those really great ECT who know all of that research. What's going to push them on, so, yeah.
Elaine Long
I think it's interesting what you say about that Haili because I read all the module completion forms. If I have a pad for every time I read that and I'd be a millionaire but I'm reading them less and less, but I wonder if it kind of links to what you sort of said about the framework as a guide book and not a rule book and I think I noticed that we're all correlation between people feeling that it's beneficial when they have that mindset towards it that they realise that it's something that they've got to make work for them and that's an active role and I feel the same about teacher development, we want our ECT to feel they have an active role in shaping their own professional development and doing something different if they need to.
So, I think that kind of feeds into the idea of them feeling like it's a repeat because although they might have an awareness of the research, they almost certainly should have an awareness of the research from their ITE year. What they won't have done and what I feel I never did after 20 years of teaching is like right now that one, every class I've got down. But I do agree with you on the other hand that there does need to be great links between the ITE year and the ECF year and there's something in our messaging around that as well. So, I guess that that teachers feel like it is part of a coherent journey as well.
Haili Hughes
Yeah, that's it and it's going to take a while. Like, you know, for many, many years, they were completely disjointed and now we're trying to do this kind of three years of continuous, you know, golden thread, you know, it's absolutely true, isn't it? That, you know, this is what we're trying to do. This idea that it's a career long development that you're signing up for in that first three years is a cohesive joined up way of being inducted into the profession.
Yes, you may go on and develop your own pedagogic style and absolutely. I hope you do and where you might say actually a lot of that research I've just read might not work for me in this context but what everybody then has are those strong foundations that they can build their own identity on and that for me is why I support the ECF.
Elaine Long
Yeah, I agree with you in what you said about it. It's almost the matter of entitlement, isn't it? Because you know you said previous to this it could be seen as a bit of a post code lottery as to whether you got a good experience of early career teacher induction and this is somewhat of a of a leveller and an entitlement to some you know, the shared knowledge around teaching. But I totally agree with you as well in terms of we should be encouraging teachers to be critical at that research and not just passive receivers of it.
I'd love to talk to you all day. I know you're very busy and I think that the school bell might be go in a minute. We give all our guess a post it note. I'm going to pass you a beautiful red post it note. On it, could you tell me what you would write on it and where you would stick it please?
Haili Hughes
Ohh wow. A red post it note. What would I write on it and where I would stick it? Who is it for?
Elaine Long
Anyone. So, you can decide really in terms of where you stick the post it note that would probably give us an indication of who's it for, so, it could be on the bathroom mirror in a school, or it could be on the wall of the DfE. Or it could be on Mark's desk.
Haili Hughes
Oh dear yeah. Now that's a temptation. No, I would probably stick it in a mentor's draw when they went in to probably grab a snack in between the five minutes that they have to breathe in their day and just say keep going, you make a difference.
Elaine Long
I think that's great. I think they’d really want to see that as well as their having their snack. I think that'd be quite inspiring. So, I think we're almost at the end.
Mark Quinn
I can. Yeah, I think that we're going to set the dog off with the school bell.
Haili, it's been a real pleasure to have shared half an hour of your time this afternoon and good luck with your various endeavours with your Iris Connect work, with your NPQ work, your ECF work, all of the stuff, you're Mentoring Matters magazine. What do we left? Oh yes, and ever more sales of your mentoring in schools book. It's definitely, heartly recommend it. Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming into the ECF staffroom and see around sometime.
Haili Hughes
No, thank you. That was great. Really enjoyable. Thanks.
Mark Quinn
Our thanks go to Haili Hughes, writer, expert on mentoring and facilitator, on the UCL ECF program for sharing coffee with us this week. In the ECF staffroom.
Elaine Long
Please do get in touch with us, if you would like to talk to us about your ECF experience, we especially want to hear from a range of voices and lastly, we hope you'll join us next time for a biscuit and a chat with another colleague in the ECF staffroom
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