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Academia after all
Female voice 1 00:00:02
You're listening to an IOE podcast. Powered by UCL Minds.
Female voice 2 00:00:23
This is Academia et al, the podcasts for anyone and everyone figuring out life in academia.
00:00:44 Keri Wong
You're listening to Academia et al., the podcast for early career academics, by early career academics. I'm Keri, an Associate Professor in Psychology at IOE, UCL's Faculty of Education and Society.
00:00:58 Alina Pelikh
And I'm Alina, I'm a Senior Research Fellow in Demography, also at UCL, IOE. We are the co-hosts for this podcast. Like you, we're early career academics just trying to figure it all out.
00:01:09 Keri
In this episode, we are thrilled to be chatting with a special guest about a really timely topic, that is academia to be inside or outside? With the rise in living costs globally, many have felt the real impacts on a day-to-day basis. From seeing the inflated prices on basic goods like a carton of milk to the increases in rent and energy prices, the realities of working in an ivory tower has really hit early career academics quite hard.
00:01:36 Alina
As some early career academics are now considering how sustainable the profession is, the theme of all the conversations is whether the grass is indeed greener on the other side. What does life outside of academia look like? Is it an option? And what might we be losing out on?
00:01:52 Keri
Joining us is the lovely Brian Irvine. Brian is a Research Fellow based at the IOE Centre for Research in Autism and Education, looking at the superior perceptual capacity in autism. He joined IOE in the summer of 2022 after an extensive 25-year career, having worked as a head of Religious Education, a childminder, an inclusion unit teacher, and then a decade as a specialist autism mentor in higher education.
That said, at the time of this conversation, he had just submitted his PhD on a framework for specialist autism, mentoring in higher education and since successfully passed his Viva. So let's take our hats off to Dr Irvine. As Brian has a wealth of experience and an interesting career path, we feel incredibly excited and privileged to be welcoming him on the podcast as we navigate some tough questions today. Welcome to the podcast, Brian.
00:02:45 Brian Irvine
Kerry, Alina. It is a pleasure and a joy to be with you both today.
00:02:51 Keri
Fantastic. So good of you to accept our invitation. So Brian, you've had a very unusual twist in your career, returning to academia after successful careers in teaching and university well-being. Tell our listeners a little bit more about your career journey.
00:03:10 Brian
It doesn't usually end up in the little bios, but back when I was 16 years old, I used to get paid for balloon modelling. I mean this is quite a trajectory of a career but it all comes back to this. Well, for me there's always been this love of education, and not just my own education. I've benefited it from it and I just need to spread it around a little bit. It's kind of like Christmas time and glitter. It's like education that should get everywhere. Just like the glitter from those balls that you find in those boxes. You know, it's possibly not going to do you good long term, but actually having education on your fingers is the way to actually live a good and fulfilled life.
That bit aside, the education pathway that's gone all the way through, I'm just really privileged to have. I've taught all ages. Last century I was a head of RE in a secondary modern school, teaching Wittgenstein to kids who sometimes spelt their own name wrong. And it was that kind of, there was a you know, I went to Oxford to do my teacher training, and then having this experience of children who needed to see more of the horizon, to think more about big things. And being able to do that in little 45 minute chunks, six times a day, it was just brilliant. Just be able to talk about what is really real and what really matters.
I then as many young men do, I had babies. Not personally, I can't. My wife and I, we, we had some amazing little boys. When they were little babies, I stayed at home to look after them, and I stayed looking after them and it was so much fun that I became a childminder and I had extra babies, so I think I was registered for five under fives.
It's amazing. You wear them like armour, one on the front, one on the back, one on the pram and then you're off. So I spent the best part of five years dressed up either as a pirate and ninja or a really huge spiky fairy. Seriously, you can actually get tax back on purchases you do for work. And so I had a large pair of man sized fairy wings. Absolutely amazing job.
It was something about playfulness that is part of that human experience that just links together so nicely. When I came out, when my boys themselves, when they went off to school, I returned to teaching, this time in an inclusion unit for primary age children who all had a diagnosis of autism.
Did that for a little while. Then as my wife moved jobs, I had to move jobs too, and I ended up living near Royal Holloway University, where they were looking out for specialist autism mentors and I spent the last decade working alongside autistic students at university, which has been fantastic.
There's been very little research done on that, which brought me into this pathway of academia and it's just been a joy to find out the things that I was doing, it's not just me doing it, but actually all across the UK, we have probably about 800 specialist autism mentors working in higher education universities and talking to students on a weekly basis about the things that really matter. Maybe that's the theme of it.
00:06:18 Alina
It's a great answer. Thank you very much, Brian. So it just sounded like you didn't really, as you said, like you didn't really have a choice, but have you ever considered careers, other career options like working in an NGO or public sector? So why university and why PhD?
00:06:34 Brian
Tricky one is I'm not very good at working for money. I yeah, I still feel guilty when I get a pay packet. Yeah and it's that kind of ‘what have I really done to deserve all this kind of stuff’. And so basically prostituting my intellect for money is kind of weird, and it's just a weird idea to start with and to be able to go and go into things which have profit as a primary motive, to go into sort of some business kind of thing doesn't sit well with the person that I am. To go into an NGO, it’s a bit more tempting, bringing about some social change and some social good, and in return, having enough to live on.
Now I can do this, and I realise I do this because I come from quite a privileged position, and the beautiful and wonderful woman that I married happens to be a vicar and vicars all across the UK don't get paid much, but they get a free house. Being able to stand a little bit free from the tyranny of the mortgage allows me to be able to do things and also gives me a responsibility to be able to do things.
You know, I can't just go and and fritter and make more money. I do have to bring back to the society that creates this institution where I can actually spend some time thinking about things and writing it down.
It doesn't fit in particularly well with this theory of oh what do people do when you know, that the the cost-of-living changes. But it does bring to mind that inequalities that we have in higher education, that actually, to be able to invest in it, you do have to come from a fairly, you know, in its own right, privileged background. It may be a valued diverse background. But there are not many academics that come to in it from, you know, not being able to afford it.
00:08:30 Alina
Absolutely. And I can totally relate to your comment about feeling privileged to be able to get paid for this job. I remember during my student years, I was lucky enough to secure a few scholarships for my studies and I felt, wow, I'm being, I'm being paid to get smarter and to read books. And this felt very similar to what you were just saying. Thank you very much for sharing.
00:08:52 Brian
It does come with the responsibility, actually. First of all, we've got to get over ourselves. Somebody has thought that we're worthy of having some time and some thoughts for the greater good. And then once we've got over ourselves, I think, OK, I've got this money we actually say, well, we now have to give something back. But actually there is a responsibility that gets foisted upon us as academics to do the best we can.
Now that, and this is having spent years working in well-being, that can bring its own pressures. Because of the expectation of having to do good, we can quite often internalise this and it becomes a horrible drive that makes sure that academics don't take a break over Christmas.
Kerry, Alina, have you got at least two weeks scheduled off?
00:09:39 Alina
I have 4, actually.
00:09:42 Brian
Nice! And it's being able to do that kind of thing, yeah, gratefully.
00:09:48 Keri
So I guess then this leads a nicely to my next question, kind of, what did you enjoy most about being a school teacher and what do you miss now?
00:09:58 Brian
I missed the performative element.
Now that don't tell the rest of the IOE, and particularly don't tell the trainee teachers, but there's something glorious about not having prepared a lesson and having to wing it. [Mixed laughter].
Don't say that out loud but there is that subject. Fear of turning up in a classroom thinking I have no idea well, what's on the curriculum. Oh, I have really haven't prepared for this. Let's do it. And actually having that bit being moulded into the kind of teacher that can in about 5 minutes notice talk upon majority of things, it's not the best teaching, but there is something lovely about that. If there are any young teachers, please, please save yourself the stress, do actually prepare before you do..
00:10:47 Alina
I want to say like, you can do that after that many years of experience. You're an absolute expert on what you're talking about, so you can actually show up and just speak of experience. I must say that many of us have to prepare really thoroughly for their classes.
00:11:00 Brian
Here's the thing is, if you are a teacher in a secondary school and you're teaching Year 9, and you're teaching Year 9 a subject that you know and love in a great detail, then actually you will have the right knowledge. The problem, and this is you know has been a gripe of mine for many, many years is that schools, because of the metrics of Ofsted and league tables and all that kind of gumph, it means you have to teach to that particular kind of output, rather than actually, if you have a love of your subject, maybe you should be spending at least half your lessons talking about the things you love, and then spend the rest of the half cramming in all the stuff for the exams.
And if you're talking about what you love, then it actually makes teaching so much easier because the kids recognise it, you recognise it, they ask you, things go backwards and forwards and suddenly there is that communication, that relationship that is the heart of a learning experience.
00:12:05 Keri
Sounds like a classroom that I would love to be in, where you're sharing your passions about the subject and learning and all of that. So yeah.
00:12:17 Brian
Now here's the thing about inclusive education, is that classroom will have people like your good self, Keri, who are interested in passion and joy and all that kind of stuff. But also kids who’ll turn up hungry, kids who’ll turn up from, you know, having had a really rubbish day at home.
Kids will turn up just feeling ill. And actually, how do we create those learning things? And this is not just at schools, this is at universities as well with students. How do we bring our joy and passion to people who might not be in the place to hear and feel it. And that's why I spent a long time working in university well-being. It's actually, we need to make sure that our students are in a place where they can learn. Now I've worked with autistic students and they’ve a superior perceptual capacity that a lot of autistic students have, means that job has to be done a little bit more, right? That there's less leeway for lecturers to get it wrong.
But creating these spaces in which people can flourish, and in flourishing, engage with the passion of their tutors, is one of those things that I really hope to be able to pass on.
00:13:25 Keri
So Brian, you know, you mentioned a little bit about creating that passionate classroom and culture and how important that is for students. I wondered you know, what are your thoughts on then, higher education and university at the minute, where you know some teachers are on permanent contracts, others are not, are on fractional contracts, and that really varies for, you know in terms of academia for everyone. So what are your thoughts on this?
00:13:52 Brian
I don't have too many issues with fractional contracts as long as they can mesh together to give you a living wage. So actually, if you can spend half your day doing one thing and half your day doing another, then the interplay you can get between those is fantastic. So I'm at a time now where I've come into a maternity cover, so I've got a very limited time where I know I've got a job. I also still work as a specialist mentor, these days more with post docs and academics than with undergraduates. So I keep a little bit of that running at the same time. And actually, I'll be honest, sometimes it's a bit much; I could be doing with working four days a week on one job and then a day week on the mentoring.
But being able to continue doing the mentoring means that I can reflect stuff back to my research and it's having this interrelated play between which can be very beneficial. As I said earlier, I have the privilege of not having to worry about a mortgage. If I had that mortgage looming over me, then actually I would need to be able to plan for future Brian in six months time, and make sure that future Brian in six months time has that security by having that kind of contract. And that then changes the nature of academia.
It means that either it gets full of privileged old farts or it becomes a place where everybody is constantly having to tread on everybody else to move forwards. Now one of the things that I kind of miss, have you both come across the concept of pro noctura? I'm not sure if it's still is a thing, but it used to be part of Oxford and Cambridge academic contracts, where actually, you would have to, when you signed on the dotted line, say that you'd have to spend a number of nights sleeping on campus.
Now this did mean that academics had a roof over their head. Now with the whole Oxford, Cambridge kind of meals on campus kind of things, it meant your academics were also fed. It also meant that there was a well-being, hopefully wise, you know academics, hopefully wise person on campus just in case students were freaking out. This old way of doing things, but we've lost a lot of the richness. Now I can see that there are safeguarding issues and all that kind of stuff coming into play, but by turning your academics into a wage slave rather than people living within a learning community, I think we may have lost something along the way.
00:16:30 Keri
So Brian, we launched a poll on our Early Career Network Twitter account to gauge the impact of the rise in living costs. We found that 77% reported feeling stressed and very stressed by the situation and that 75% thought of a career outside of academia, of which 20 people, 20% of people are actively looking. So as someone with experience of both an academic and non-academic life, how has the rise in living costs impacted you?
00:17:07 Brian
It's not good. It really isn't good. And it's not good, not just because you walk in a shop and you think, ohh, I can't have that second expensive bottle of wine or whatever it is. It's more you walk into the shop and it's full of people who are also anxious.
And I think it's more nuanced than the things we can or cannot afford. I think there is something caustic at the heart of society that maybe I'm just picking up on it, but I wander around and for those of you who don't have the video recording, I look a little bit like Santa Claus, and I have these hopeful little eyes look up for me when I walk around a supermarket, and I know that they won't always be getting what they want and sometimes they won't get what they need.
And that that sadness sits with me. So it's not a sadness of my own personal gains. I'm, I mean, I live in a draughty old house. I'm going to freeze over winter. Luckily, I'm able enough that I can wander around. I'm not particularly limited by physicality, age is a bastard, but not that limited, limited by physicality. So I'll be able to keep myself warm. I've cut down a tree a couple of months ago. I've got enough wood fire to keep it burning. It's not insulated and I probably won't insulate that place, but I'll be OK. I'll just watch TV in a sleeping bag. It'll be OK.
It's the harshness that I get when I go out. Now I know quite a few community centres, churches, mosques, synagogues are creating places of warmth for the elderly. And actually, the fact that we live in a society where that is needed, where people do not have the means to warm, warm their own place, that's heartbreaking. And I'm cursed with being a sensitive man, when I'm out about, I feel that pain.
And that's the bit that really stresses me out. It's not the stress for myself. I'll be OK, most people in academia… Yeah, you'll be alright. It'll be hard, but you'll be alright. But having to live and perhaps if you research alongside those people, then that's going to be really, really, really tough for us all.
00:19:21 Alina
No, you're absolutely right. I think I'm just trying to steer back to the course and to the topic of our conversation about academic careers. And I think what you say a lot relates to your academics as well. And we talked about precarious contracts, and we talked about how it affects the quality of living and the quality of teaching, the quality of research.
And I think it's… we see these striking results of people actually considering careers outside of academia. But one thing I wanted to ask you, so what was the most challenging part of returning to academia for yourself? So for many people it would be precarious contracts but what other things were interesting to know your opinion on that?
00:20:04 Brian
I tell you what I'm struggling with is the long term, and this is part of the precarity is yeah, at the moment I can think of my project. I love my project. My project. Brilliant. The next project, because the funding is still needed for that. Whether I'm part of that project or not is still to be discussed.
But to have that long term idea so that we know that the things that I'm working on now, I could still be working on the unpacking of in 5-6 years time would be a beautiful thing. It meant that I would be more invested in the here and now. But also I wouldn't just be looking for the quick answer. That becomes a paper and then gets published and you're on to the next. It's creating that longitudinal stuff as an early career academic. I'm also coming up close to 50 fairly soon. Five years. It is a nice thing. It means I can do three years before I… three more things before I retire.
00:21:01 Keri
No worries. So I guess maybe building on that a little bit more then, you know, you talked about your current career stage in academia, but how do you see then your future in academia, you know? Do you think you might consider another career change in the near future?
00:21:18 Brian
Possibly. This is where I have to disclose my own neurodiversity. I am something called an aphant. This means I have no pictures in my head. I don't dream in pictures. I don't think in pictures. I don't conceive and conceptualise in pictures.
I occasionally have a little 5-second-long voice that prepares what I'm going to say next, but that's about it, in the cavernous void that is my brain. It means that I've always struggled with those interview questions.
Where do you see yourself in five years time? I have no idea. I don't see myself anywhere. It’s.. my brain's not built like that. I have hopes and I hope that I'm doing something that brings about active change. Because of my history working with autistic students, I would love to be in a position where I can make sure that our autistic students find places of belonging in higher education. And for those it's been a wonderful ride. So 2003, yeah, just when I was starting to become a childminder, there we go. 2003, there were 80 autistic university students in the entire of the UK. Last year there was 16,500.
That's a huge growth.. in fact, there are more autistic students going to university than students that go to Cambridge. Just a lovely statistic. And actually, these people are thriving. They're thinking about the problems that the world is throwing at us in new and brilliant and different ways.
And we need this diversity of thought within our universities to take on the tricky problems of the future and being part of that is a joy.
00:22:53 Alina
Yeah, just yeah this discussions recently and in the advanced leaders course that I took this term, there were a few staff members that are members of the UCL Neurodiversity Network if you're aware of about this. So they find it really useful to look for some support and answers and if you're listening to us right now and you need any help or support there will be useful links that in our show notes.
00:23:18 Brian
OK can I say more than help and support, I want you to know you belong here, that the fact that you can think differently from the well, sometimes in the little research group here, we call the more majority predominant neurotypical them the ‘neuro-boring’. If you can think through things in a non neuro-boring way, then universities are where you belong, it is where you should flourish and it is where you should have ideas that change the world. And UCL has this big history of radical thinking like that. And neurodiversity I think is part of the mix.
00:23:51 Alina
Brian. We ask all of our guests to share their tip off the day. So would be what would be your tip for early career academics today?
00:23:59 Brian
My, my, my big thing is be on the lookout for bureaucratic pirates. Now, this is not universities, lovely big institutions. There are in our institutions these brilliant pirates who work in our departments. These are the departmental administrators who really know their stuff in and out, and you'll go up to them. And it's like, there is… there are trade routes in big institutions, how things get passed on if you can find yourself a pirate who can circumnavigate the trade routes who can work out…
Well, you go to them and say look, I'm going to recruit for a new comms officer. And they go, ohh, well, here's the official paperwork, but unofficially email it here. And that's the kind of person you need in these sprawling big institutions. The people who are know what needs to get done and the shortest possible way of getting that stuff done. So, find your pirates, feed your pirates, and don't push them overboard.
00:24:58 Alina
That's an excellent advice. Wow. Thank you very much, Brian. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. And I personally have learned a lot, and I hope you did too. Great. Thank you for a lively discussion.
00:25:09 Keri
Thank you for listening to Academia et al. I'm Keri Wong.
00:25:12 Alina
And I'm Alina Pelikh.
00:25:15 Keri
And joining us today was our lovely guest, Brian Irvine. You can learn more about Brian's research on his Q&A page, which is linked in our show notes or follow him on Twitter at @BigBadBee.
00:25:26 Alina
You can also follow the IOE Early Career Network Twitter account at @IOE_EarlyCareer. If you have suggestions for content or want to be on our next podcast as a guest, send us an email at ioe.earlycareer@ucl.ac.uk. Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC]
Female voice 2 00:22:07
Academia et al is brought to you by the IOE's Early Career Network. This podcast is presented by Dr Keri Wong and Dr Alina Pelikh. The theme music was created by Roni Xu. Amy Leibowitz is the series producer, and Sarah-Jane Gregori is the executive producer.
Female voice 1 00:22:40
Thanks so much for downloading and listening to this IOE podcast.