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Is the grass greener on the other side of academia?
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This is Academia et al, the podcasts for anyone and everyone figuring out life in academia.
00:00:30 Keri Wong
I'm Keri, an Associate Professor in Psychology at IOE, UCL's Faculty of Education and Society. I am one of the co-hosts for this podcast. Like you, I'm an early career academic just trying to figure it all out. In this episode, I'm thrilled to be chatting with a special guest about a really timely topic that is academia - to be inside or outside? With the rise in living costs globally, many have felt the real impacts on a day-to-day basis, from seeing the inflated prices on basic goods like a carton of milk to the increases in rent and energy prices.
The realities of working in an ivory tower has really hit early career academics quite hard, as some early career academics are now considering how sustainable the profession is. The theme of our conversations is whether the grass is indeed greener on the other side. What is life outside of academia like? Is it an option? What might we be losing out on? Joining me is the lovely Dr Audrey Kittredge.
Audrey holds a PhD in Cognitive Psychology from the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, 2012. She has conducted research on playful learning and early childhood education and parenting at Carnegie Mellon University, the University of Cambridge, and as a consultant with UNICEF. Now as a Learning Science Manager at Duolingo, she advances research, informed app development, and efficacy evaluations for the language learning and literacy apps.
I feel incredibly excited and privileged to be welcoming you on the podcast as we navigate some tough questions today. Welcome to the podcast.
00:02:24 Audrey Kettredge
Hello. Thank you so much for having me
00:02:32 Keri
Lovely to have you. So I guess quick question to start and also to give our listeners a bit of a background of yourself. How is it, you know, when you were thinking about academia, maybe industry, because leaving academia can be very daunting for some people. How did you even navigate getting on the industry job market?
00:02:52 Audrey
Yes. So you know, leaving academia is definitely daunting, and that's why I only left after I had done a PhD and two postdocs. But by that time I knew that I wanted to leave, you know, for personal and professional reasons. But I really actually wasn't sure which other career path would be best and was practical and the best match kind of, for me. So I think the single most important thing I did to navigate this transition was to network. So you know, for starters I met up with people outside of academia at conferences I was going to and this is actually was a technique that led to my first non academic role as a parttime consultant with UNICEF.
Now after that experience, I did some more job searching and some more networking reaching out to my colleagues who had left academia on LinkedIn. And so you know, these friends of mine and also friends of theirs were kind enough to give me many coffee chats or sort of what are called informational interviews so I could get a sense of what their jobs were like and how I could actually get into a similar role. And so that all that networking set the stage.
And I say the second most important thing after that was to apply very broadly, so too many different types of jobs and always keeping an open mind about what my next steps might be. And so I apply to jobs, you know, in International Development in a variety of companies, in research organizations, in foundations you know, etcetera. So in this way I was able to really get a taste of the different types of work through the interview process and I also steadily got better at interviewing.
And I would say the third most important thing after you know networking and applying broadly is just trusting your intuition. You know my my networking and applications eventually led me to Duolingo and when I was in the interview process I really enjoyed the tasks that I was given to do during that process and enjoyed speaking with the people who interviewed me, and now that I've been a Duolingo for a year and 3/4, I can say you know, that my initial intuition was on the mark.
You know, working inside the company has been even more rewarding than I expected.
00:04:47 Keri
Thanks for sharing that, Audrey and great tips as well for those who are listening. So then you know the phrase the grass is always greener on the other side. How true is this actually for your life outside of academia?
00:04:55 Audrey
That is an excellent question, I think that we have a tendency to think that the grass is greener wherever we aren't currently. So I think, you know, when I was in academia, I definitely felt like the grass was greener outside, You know, I felt like people are working on more exciting, impactful things. That was the reason that I part of the reason that I left.
I wanted to produce, you know, things that had a more immediate impact on people's lives, especially children's and teachers lives, since my, you know, my field is in education and learning. And I also wanted the ability to choose where I live. It's often hard to do that in academia because, you know, you do highly specialized work and so you go where there's a job. So that was what I sort of thought when I was in academia.
Now that I'm outside and kind of looking back in, I do think that there are some unique benefits really that academics have. So for instance, one is the ability to focus in long stretches of time on something. So right now my days have lots of, you know, half hour meetings. I'm quickly doing many, many different things. That's also true of academia. But I think that this idea of having several hours straight in a row to focus is a really rare thing right now for me. And I think it's a little bit more common academic work because you sort of manage your own schedule more. Also in academia, you have an incredible amount of freedom to choose what you work on. That's sort of the definition of the work, right? Then you have to be passionate about something and then you know that's the reason you're researching it, for instance.
And having that amount of freedom to choose which you work on is very important to some people. Work in industry is more sort of decided by company priorities and sort of what needs to be developed maybe say in a product. And I think that, you know, good companies find a way for people inside the company to work on things that they're passionate about because they realize that you know people will do their best work if you know they're they're working on something that they really care about.
But overall you do have just less choice about kind of what you're doing. And also academia has this relatively flexible work and travel schedule which I think is sort of hard to probably beat. But all of these I would say are really just trade-offs. There's no one-size-fits-all answer I'd say for this question and so for me the benefits of doing applied work outside academia outweigh any cost there might be, but I think this calculus is really different for each person.
00:07:07 Keri
So maybe here's a good place for me to kind of get you to talk a little bit more about that culture that you've experienced. And I wonder when you first started this, these new roles and outside of the safe spaces of academia. Did you find maybe did you find yourself having a bit of a culture shock or actually was it quite a pleasant welcoming experience as well to have those directives or goals already set for you?
00:07:30 Audrey
Yeah, that's a really excellent question. I would say that it did take a bit of time to adjust, You know, I didn't really know what to sort of expect culture wise. So, you know, I think getting used to these things that I spoke about did take some time. So getting used to like the very fast piece of work, you know, constantly going from one short meeting to another.
You know, also I would say I actually have always really enjoyed collaborative work. So kind of having a common goal rather than my own personal goal, my work, in fact, that was one thing that I didn't like as much. By academic works, I really wanted to be deciding jointly with others what we work on and kind of, you know, work in a group. So I would say that part of the culture I really liked, you know, kind of when I arrived in an industry, I was like, oh, this is great, you know, I really love this.
I do think though that there of course sometimes where you have a particular interest and as a researcher you have a curiosity that you want to dig into and you know it's not always the top company priority to do that. So I think that's sort of one thing you also have to get used to.
00:08:28 Keri
Very interesting. And I guess this links nicely or segues nicely into some of the skills that you, you know, would think about that it's important for say industry and also academia. And I think for someone who is in academia all the time or never been outside, that's kind of the daunting question. Do I, am I actually able to succeed in industry? So if you were to kind of maybe pinpoint or reflect on your own experiences, which transferable skills would you think that are has been helpful for you and your transition? And what are some maybe of these transferable skills people should be looking to develop if they're currently in academia?
00:08:58 Audrey
That's a really fantastic question, I think, especially for people who are a bit not sort of undergraduates or graduate students, but really kind of like they may be done, they may be a postdoc. And so you you don't really have the opportunity to go do an internship, for instance, which is one way that you might learn, you know, some of these skills.
But I think that academics have many transferable skills. It's just a matter of seeing them that way and describing them the right way. So for instance, one really important skill is clear, simple communication to kind of like a non expert audience, right? So people who are not in your domain of expertise, both in speaking and writing. And I think that will serve you no matter what kind of career you pursue.
And I think that another very, very important skill that I sort of referenced earlier is collaboration. So other jobs I've worked in, you know, outside academia are highly collaborative. So they really require you to, you know, make joint decisions and kind of like keep on timelines, you know, with other people very closely, and you know, compromise a lot and sort of, you know, see the people's perspective. So all of these sorts of skills that you never really put on an on academic CV are very, very, very important and being able to say that you have them and kind of demonstrate that you've used them to to do important things I think are that's that's very important.
I think another aspect, you know to work, in my experience outside academia that's a skill to develop is really just working with a high efficiency mindset. So really thinking you know what is the most efficient way for me to use my time. How can I do something even more quickly and efficiently. I think that will again serve you anywhere in that in academia as well. But it's just there's less sort of, an expectation, and I think a pressure to to work in that way in academia.
And I think you know like, as I mentioned earlier, really understanding what is what is this field you're going into what kind of terms do they use like what are the.. What's the vocabulary? What's the jargon? Every field has some jargon, whether it's academia or industry or you know, the foundation, world of foundations. And you can really get a sense of that jargon from job postings. And so it's really important to sort of redescribe your skills and experience in those terms as much as possible specific to that field.
00:11:28 Keri
Yeah, that that makes so much sense like all the jargon that we don't, we kind of normalise that in academia, actually the same as is true for industry and that they have their set of language and it's important that you master that and try and learn as much as possible in the transition. So sounds like a steep learning curve also in terms of the vocabulary and the things that maybe key skills that you want to brush up on as well.
I guess then the next question I have then is more about maybe things that you wanted to perhaps have known before you actually made the move or transition, as perhaps many of our listeners are currently maybe thinking about it or thinking about the grass being being greener. I guess my question then to you is what were some things that you wish you knew before going into industry that you might want to share with our listeners?
00:12:25 Audrey
Yeah, that's that's very interesting question and I think that this will be, my answer will of course be fairly personal, you know, kind of to my situation specifically things that I thought, oh I wish I had known that. So I hope that might be interesting for others as well. I want to kind of, before I actually talk about that just step back and say that, you know, I didn't actually specifically plan to go into industry.
You know, I really searched very broadly, you know, I searched in many different areas. So, so this is, you know, these are just things that I now, I think I would have liked to know about industry, but I was at the time considering many other potential career paths. So I think that you know for instance I had a very simplistic idea of you know how companies operated. The differences between companies before I worked in industry, companies really are as different as the people who run them. So some are very mission driven, some are more profit driven. You know there are many other dimensions I could talk about.
For instance, the company I work for, Duolingo, I feel a lot of affinity with because of its mission, which is really sort of, you know, free language education, you know, for everyone around the world and you know, also supporting that and other subjects like literacy and math. And so you know, that's something that's really was important to me to align with the mission of the organization that I work with, and Duolingo was also, for instance, started by someone who used to be a professor. And so I think that, you know, they're also a lot of former academics and PhD's working inside and so it's really fun to work with colleagues who have similar backgrounds. So I don't think, I didn't realize that inside industry you could work with people who actually were from very, very similar backgrounds and had similar training and and a lot of overlapping interests. I think I also wish I'd understood just how exciting it is to work with colleagues from very different fields.
So now I regularly collaborate with people who are from very different walks of life. You know, they're curriculum designers, product designers, they're in marketing, They're engineers, they're product managers, you know, just to name a few of the roles that we have. And they're incredibly intelligent and creative. And I really do constantly feel humbled by their expertise. And it's also a lot of fun to kind of work with them because they might approach a problem in a different way.
And that's something I think I, I had this very, very faint intuition about, but I wish someone had really explained just how rewarding it can be. You know, that kind of what's called cross functional work, that's a jargon term, work across different types of expertise. And I think one of the things that I would have liked to understand is sort of more about, sort of the structure of how people work together in industry as opposed to academia, so yeah.
So basically the professor is, you know, essentially making a lot of the decisions for what happens in their lab. So they're, they're fairly independent. But in industry you have this other type of mix of collaborative and hierarchical work. On the one hand, you're often working with peers towards the common goal, which again, as I mentioned something that's really very rewarding. But it and it feels more like you're sort of collaborating saying, oh, can you do this? OK, great. And you're sort of on the same level, although you have different types of backgrounds and expertise.
At the same time, the current of the larger priorities for what you're working on are being made, you know, kind of for you, right. So they're important decision makers who are sort of senior leaders and the work is driven a lot by company priorities. And so I think that was sort of, you know, this, this complex mix of both on the one hand sort of more less hierarchical kind of collaborative work, but also in a sense greater you know, sort of decision making above you about kind of the topics you're working on. That's something I didn't really understand I think before going into industry.
00:16:12 Keri
Thanks for sharing that, thanks Audrey. And I guess maybe just hearing it from how you've described your kind of day-to-day now parts of the collaborative work, maybe understanding the structure doesn't all seem that foreign to even the academic world and it's is you know, good to hear that you're kind of, you still have that big kind of bigger picture anchoring you, as well in terms of the mission statement of the company that you work for.
That really is or pretty much I think similar to also that academic passion that many of us have in terms of solving problems or answering or addressing that real world kind of big question sounds like it's just how we're we're all kind of aiming for that cause and then kind of doing it in a maybe slightly different way. So, Audrey, what other transferable skills would be helpful?
00:17:00 Audrey
So another transferable skill that academics have that I really think is their secret weapon is critical thinking. So this is something that, you know, we're highly trained to do as sort of researchers, people who are investigating really tough questions. And I think this is something that, you know, we really have as in as a strength. We don't think about it when we're surrounded by other academics, but in the context of others with different training, it's really something we bring to the table.
I think an industry, you have to use it wisely because sometimes people, you know, they want to just get a lot of things done. So you can't sort of endlessly question things. But I think if you bring just even just a little bit of that to the table, it's highly appreciated, something that we can really, really add value to.
00:17:32 Keri
And so then as someone who hasn't been in industry before, what are the career opportunities like in industry?
00:17:47 Audrey
So I would say, you know, take what I say with a grain of salt because I've only been in one company so far, which is Duolingo. But in my particular context, I do think that there are a lot of great career development opportunities. For instance, you know, I started out doing individual work kind of on different teams and now I've also become a role manager. So I sort of, you know, manage some direct reports which is really rewarding for me.
And that's something that, you know, I was able to do because I expressed an interest to my manager and then when an opportunity arose, she was able to, you know, to help me develop in this way. So I think that actually that's another important point that career development opportunities really are very dependent on your manager because they're the person who's sort of making decisions about what kind of work can you work on and
you know, what are the priorities, you know and also making decisions about things like your compensation and kind of you know, how are you doing, you know, in the company evaluating your performance.
So I think much more so than academia where you're really the one managing your own career, things will really, really depend on your manager and also maybe say, on the lead of your team, other people who are kind of deciding the priorities for you know what you work on.
00:18:55 Keri
That's super true and I can totally relate to that. Then the next question on the topic of jargon that we talked about in industry and things like that, what's your favourite and least favourite jargon in industry?
00:19:10 Audrey
So maybe I'll start with my least favourite. I think there are these terms that are just very specific to sort of, you know interfaces like device interfaces. So for instance, do you know what FAB means? No, like, not as in FAB, fabulous, but FAB as in floating action button. So this refers to a very specific type of button on the screen, you know, which sort of is like sort of floating above other elements. I mean, you know, this is something that I had to learn working at Duolingo, I think my favourite part of jargon because I think I think it's a great thing to remember all the time.
And some people actually know outside academia as well as ROI. So that's stands for return on investment. And so this is something that we're constantly thinking about. You know, does it make sense to invest the time and resources in doing this thing because we really need to maximise impact or what we can kind of achieve with the the time and the effort we put into something maybe to say the money as well. So that's that's really hones your sense of priority like OK, what should I really be working on this moment. And I think it's really helpful actually in any field, whether you're ain industry or not.
So I that's something that I really like actually.
00:20:15 Keri
I can really relate to that, Audrey. I think for us in academia recently, the term where I have a love, hate relationship for is really the word impact because we're constantly now asked to obviously think about ref, how does our research have an impact and who it impacts, who the stakeholders are. And more than that kind of, I think it does really get researchers to think with more urgency in terms of what they're actually doing.
And perhaps not spend many, many years thinking about the problem and issue. So yes, definitely good to good to know and I can relate to that. So we asked our guests to share a tip of the day. And Audrey, what is your tip of the day? For our listeners who are maybe thinking about academia or leaving it and industry and whatnot, what can you share for them?
00:21:02 Audrey
I would say take a few minutes today and reach out to someone who's not in academia on LinkedIn or by e-mail to ask them for a coffee chat. The worst thing they can do is not respond to you. And many people will respond, and they'll really have a chat with you and let you know what their life is like and what's it like outside academia?
00:21:22 Keri
Great. Thank you very much for a lively discussion, Audrey. It's given me a lot to think about if I were ever to consider changing jobs. Thank you for listening to Academia et al. I'm Keri Wong and joining me today with my lovely guest, Dr Audrey Kittredge.
You can learn more about her work in our show notes or follow her on LinkedIn. You can also follow the IOE Early Career Network Twitter account at @IOE_EarlyCareer. If you have suggestions for content or want to be on our next podcast as a guest, send us an email at ioe.earlycareer@ucl.ac.uk. Thanks for listening.
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Academia et al is brought to you by the IOE's Early Career Network. This podcast is presented by Dr Keri Wong and Dr Alina Pelikh. The theme music was created by Roni Xu. Amy Leibowitz is the series producer, and Sarah-Jane Gregori is the executive producer.
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