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In episode 1, Lorna Collins speaks to Dr Thomas Kador (UCL Arts Science) and Lidia Lidia (artist) about young people's mental health and wellbeing.
Transcript
Lorna Collins 0:01
Welcome to creative lives a podcast which opens provocative conversations, experimenting with big ideas and local practices. My name is Lorna Collins and I will bring together researchers, experts by experience artists and performers approaching issues around Community Learning communication, healthcare, welfare, age and the life course. As we will see, the possibilities of creativity are endless.
Now our topic today is young people's mental health and wellbeing, and my guests are the artist, Lidia Lidia, and researcher Thomas Kador. Lidia Lidia is a multidisciplinary artist who works with installation, video photography, performance and activism. She believes passionately in the statement that the personal is political, and that art can shape society. She uses strong and sometimes disturbing images with extensive research to communicate uncomfortable narratives. Thomas Kador is an Associate Professor in Arts and Sciences at University College London. He is principal investigator of the ‘SWELS’ project, investigating student wellbeing, and he works with the student mental health research Network. He and his colleagues at UCL are about to launch a massive new Creative Health MSC degree programme.
So, Thomas and Lidia, tell me what does creativity mean to you? Tell me how you express yourself creatively in your own life and your work.
Lidia Lidia 1:40
So I believe that for me, creativity is a sort of cocktail between communication and self-expression. And it's a kind of way for sharing with the world, what makes me me. And the way that I express myself, Lorna, you already said, I'm a multidisciplinary artist that I work with installation, performance, photography, videos, and activism. And activism, I believe is more the ethical way that I approach my work and the way that I show it to people. I call it medium nowadays, because more and more, there are more requests about art that use activism that is called activists. But if I must analyse exactly what is activism for me as a medium is the way that I approach my work and the way that I push it out by presented to the audience. And apart from that, I must say that the more I am getting old more my life is getting bigger, with creative projects, because all my life is dictated by my projects and my practices. So the way that I sleep, I eat, or that I don’t eat, or that I don’t have time for shopping or seeing people. So it’s getting more and more, everything very interconnected, between my creative practice, and actually my life.
Lorna Collins 3:11
Thank you to do there's a symbiotic link between art creativity and activism in your work. Thomas, what about you? Where is creativity in your life in your work?
Thomas Kador 3:23
Thanks, Lorna. Yeah.
I've been thinking about it a little bit over the over the recent past, in particular, in relation to the programme that you've mentioned that we're launching a master's in creative health. And in that context, I sort of had to think quite hard, what do you actually mean by creativity, because it's one of those terms that can mean so many things to so many different people, or everybody almost has their own take on it. And I would sort of like to go back to the original meaning if you want, because creativity tends to be associated, obviously, with art of all types of things. But I would like to go back to that original meaning of creativity, of linking to creating to the process of making something. And this is really my take on it, that it's about making something, perhaps something that hasn't been done or made before. So any type of problem solving, obviously, even identifying problems and then trying to do something about it could be seen as a very much creative fact.
And I think why I find that helpful this linking creative with making with creating is that it takes away this elitist idea that sometimes it's associated with wanting to be art, and people, you know, have the separations into high art and low art and so on. And I think if you think about creating as opposed to something more like artistic also on them, it takes away that little bit of separation between those areas of high and low art.
Personally, you know, I've never seen myself as a very artsy type of person. I've never been very good at you know, Arts, in school, and drawing and those kinds of things. So my confidence, I guess, in relation to many of those areas would have been quite bruised. If you come back later to the young people's mental health. Our dedication, for example, has to answer for in relation to creativity, and young people. But what I've discovered in my adult life is that there are lots of things that I do that I'm very creative in lots of ways, I'm very interested in the outdoors, for example, in foraging and wild foods, and so on and identifying things out in the wild and having the confidence and collect those and to cook them and eat them, whether it's wild mushrooms or, or anything like that, is actually quite a creative process, for example, just as one example. So, engaging with nature in this week could also be seen as quite a creative thing. I'd like to bring it back a little bit under the creative health aspects in this podcast series is essentially about health to some degree, and with today's focus, especially on young people's mental health, if a bring creative back to the process of creating to making something, then if you link that with the creative health element, and we can think about what we mean by creating health, essentially, the idea is that everyone has the opportunity in some way to be a health creator, that this helps us I think, with the very transactional process that we associate with healthcare in this country, that you know, usually you seek healthcare when you're unwell.
And then you have a professional who fixes you, right? That's sort of, in very simplistic terms, the idea. But when we look at creative health, it's about that everybody can, in some way, be involved in the process of creating their own health and other people's health. And I think that's, that's a really important shifts that, as I said, I've been thinking about over the last number of years when we started developing a educational programme in this field in creative health. That's fascinating.
Lorna Collins 6:59
Thank you, Thomas. So let's now contextualise the topic we're looking at today, young people's health and wellbeing in the current moment. So what is the situation? And what are the issues we should be looking at right now? Obviously, we have the pandemic COVID-19. But where do young people sit in today's society? And how can they create their health? As you were just saying, Thomas? And what obstacles do they meet?
Thomas Kador 7:28
This is obviously a huge question. I'm not sure, I'm not a psychologist. So I'm not an expert in this traditional field of mental health in a clinical sense. My perspective is, as you mentioned at the start, that I'm involved in a number of research projects and initiatives, in particular university students’ mental health and universities wellbeing, and from my professional side of things, I've been working in higher education for quite a number of years. And for the last four or five years, I've been departmental tutor in my own department, which means that all the kind of serious wellbeing related and pastoral cases, pass my desk. Any student that is in serious difficulty I know about it, I have to deal with these cases. So I've seen quite a lot anecdotally in that regard, in particular to university students, but I think probably university students aren't that different from the general young adult adolescent population, I think there's a lot of attention placed, for example, on this idea of a mental health crisis in the universities with students. And I don't disagree with the idea of it, but I think I wondering to what degree. This is just much more visible in the universities, because it's just such a large number of all young people come together in universities in higher education worse, which is, I guess, we are close enough to 50% of people between 18 and 21, doing some form of higher education course, and therefore, they are all collected there. And the other half of young people that don't go to these institutions, they are much more dispersed. So therefore we don't have the same image with universities, we have large numbers of students and therefore, a high proportion of them demonstrate some mental health difficulties. And that makes it very visible, very easy to get a picture and the picture is quite worrying. I think. In the 10 years, I think, to 2017-18, we've seen something like a five-fold increase in the report of university students, for example, disclosing mental health conditions, and in my own work as departmental tutor, as I've mentioned, luckily, none of the students I've been working with have taken their own life, but we've had quite a few examples of suicidal behaviour. So there is a problem there. Why is this happening? I think this is one of those kind of million dollar questions, right?
Putting a simple answer on this is not easy, and many people are working on it. There is obviously a lot of research, for example, on social media and the impact of social media. Children from very young ages are exposed to this 24 hour, almost constant accessibility of the online world of social networking, and so on. Having said that, there's also research in North America, for example, to demonstrate that people can use social media to find themselves more connected to others to actually help their wellbeing so it's not as clear cut a situation. I think one possible explanation is the amount of pressure that young people experience. In today's society, I think there is a lot of emphasis on doing well for yourself, and this idea that we have of a meritocracy, right, that you can achieve anything if you just work hard enough. That puts a lot of pressure on young people from a very young age, starting with, you know, at least with secondary education, but even before potentially, where we really put a lot of emphasis on high achievers and high achieving. And I think it sets up young people almost destined to fail to some degree to reach those superlatives, those really high goals that we are presenting them with. And I think that probably has a lot to answer for. I'm not saying that's the single cause of the difficulties young people are facing. But I think the way we are emphasising so much these various elements of high achieving is potentially very problematic.
Lorna Collins 11:31
Thank you, Thomas. And Lydia, what are your thoughts about young people's health and wellbeing in the current moment?
Lidia Lidia 11:39
Absolutely. I share everything, every point with a Thomas, but going backwards, not just university students about analysing also younger children, my partner has three children, that they are not mine. But I've seen them since when they were 10. And now they are in their 20s. And I've seen their change, and their approach and their mood, during all the developmental, let's call it off social media, and this is a sort of a pressure that gives to them. And the feeling that they had, not only them, but also with other friends that they talk of. Clearly, then I was curious, and I read more and more, there is this constant pressure to them not only as a Thomas said, about doing well, so there is these performance, stress constantly, but also about becoming, that kind of rich, famous and sexy in a very ridiculous age that is just literally harming a child, I mean, children of 12-13 years old, but both boys and girls, not only girls being so hyper sexualized in a very stereotypical way. So you have these girls that so quick, they start to pester, the parents, I talked with some of them that they want already their lips made surgical, or they are already planning for breast implantation, or liposuction or when they are their hormones are still developing, they are still doing a path that we should leave the body free to do it before thinking, Okay, I'm going to do some sort of intervention. And they don't want actually do that. Because out of the blue one morning, they wake up and they say, Well, I need out other ways. I don't feel well, they want to do that because they won't comply with the rest of this society with the friends.
Yes. So what's important to consider is what can we do creatively to address this situation? moving forwards? For me, one of the points, again, that I agree with Thomas, is this thing about validation and recognition... that are true, in the institution and the school. And I thought quite a lot about this, because I have a friend in Italy, she has two children, one is seven years old. And the other one is three, I believe. And the one is seven years old goes in a sort of peculiar school. That is the first time that I heard about a project like that, where children instead that being evaluated from the school about their homework or what they do, they self-evaluate to themselves. And they have to explain the reason why they give the marks that they give to their projects. And I think that this is very interesting. I can understand that. You can't do it with everything, you know, like math, science, there are things that you are really obliged somehow to fit on the box because he started because we are talking about formulas because we are talking about a scientific work is something that you can today construct about creativity and here I reconnect with the Thomas when he said, you know, I didn't feel myself, so creative -- because when I was at school I was in this way, in that way. But now that I got older, I just recognised that my approach to other stuff is literally very creative.
So doing these self-evaluation, giving chance to children from the primary school to self-evaluate them self-justifying the marks that they give to their project, I think that this would be an incredible experiment and an incredible way of paying children to avoid to be under the stress of performance, and doing things just because they want to do it because it makes them feel well, and not because they won't have the final marks. And in this way, they also will be less in competition with other people, because everything will be just on their shoulder about how much can I put more on these, what I can do better, because the creative process is not just copying, let's say drawing. Everyone wants to draw as a Michelangelo, Leonardo, the drawing is not that. Drawing is the identity of your marks, it's like your voice. and creativity is the same. We have all different sorts of approach to these. And a very important thing is also to have again, a holistic approach, and more oriental approach to creativity as a society as a collectivity. Because we have this perception of creativity as a soft of tool for becoming, again, more recognised the famous and instead, we should understand that creativity is something that make us feel well, at least makes me feel well, in my mind and in my body. And when makes me feel bad generally is because instead that having time and enjoying what I do, I'm freaking out because I have to achieve something for posting it on Instagram that no one cares about me on Instagram.
So it's very important that as a society, as a collectivity, we change our approach to some sort of thought to creativity. And then, after we do that we can teach to children, that actually that is not a tool for becoming cool and having more validation from the external, but is a very important element in your life or feeling well with yourself and connected with your deepest you.
Lorna Collins 17:27
Thank you, Lydia, that's fascinating. Thomas, would you like to respond to any of that?
Thomas Kador 17:32
Yeah, there's a lot of similarity. And what I've been thinking about, I see sort of three levels of what we may be able to do areas that we could address, that's the things that are actually quite simple, if the wind was there. And then the other things that are the structures are in place, but we need to rethink them, they are more difficult. And then I think the really hard ones where we just don't have the answers and maybe haven't even asked the right questions yet. So in terms of simple wins, in line with what Lydia has been talking about the way all young people pretty much in this country, by the age of 21, have had some contact with institutional education. So education needs to play a role somewhere, they're an important one. We've published a little paper last year, just asking some of our students in University College London, about things like what are the main stressors in their lives? What are the things that make them feel well, and so on? And clearly assessment is always in the top of what makes people on well, and what stresses them? Right? That doesn't just happen in university, it's obviously a secondary school in particular, with GCSEs and A Levels. And this links to something interesting, we haven't really talked about COVID and the pandemic, right. What's really interesting in terms of positive legacies is that now in a few months’ time, we will have survived in university in secondary schools for two years with eight examinations we'd have survived with a GCSE is we have survived for that A Levels. And with traditional sit-down exams, in universities, we have 300 students crammed into big hall, sitting down with a piece of paper for two hours needing to write something down out of their brains. Of course, things have been difficult around COVID in every respect, including some of these areas. But we can make this better right rather than trying now to go back to the system that we knew wasn't perfect in the first place, I would argue was actually very poor. We should use that as an opportunity and realise, let's rethink the way we assess in education. I think that's quite an easy one, because we have already started for two years now. doing it because we had to. And if you want to go the whole hog, then we're getting into the territory of more difficult things. Should we consider abandoning grading altogether? Is awarding grades actually helpful? Is it actually beneficial, but that's another conversation for another day. Then in terms of the more difficult fields then these are prioritising funding.
For example, recently, the government tier has announced an extra £79 million investment into young people's mental health, which is obviously very welcome. The question is, how is that money going to be spent? And the other question is, is it going to be spent because the previous investment announced the five-year kind of approach announced in 2015, a large majority of that money has never been invested, it was pledged, but it didn't end up getting used. So that's an issue in itself. But also, if it was spent, a lot of this will be spent in areas of firefighting in areas of helping young people when they already in crisis, whether it's eating disorder, clinics, whether it's mental health, whether it's CBT, or other cognitive behavioural therapy or other therapeutic approaches to, to young people already in crisis, there is very little of if any investment actually in thinking about preventing young people becoming so unwell, that they need the supports that are so costly, and so difficult. And this is time when we reached the third level that I mentioned that he really difficult ones, and that is actually getting to those answers.
What are those causes? Why are young people finding life so difficult? In a relatively peaceful, safe environment as the UK in the 21st century? Okay, the last year has been difficult. But still, we should imagine that life is pretty good in this day and age in Western Europe, yet young people are really struggling in large amounts. finding answers to that question, I think it's the real challenge. And then think about creative approaches throughout the life journey for people to make a real difference to bring real benefits for people's wellbeing.
Lidia Lidia 21:36
Can I add to something on this conclusion of a Thomas that I think that is, from my point of view, very important, one of the problem about how to invest in is that a lot our society is just based about money, money that we can spend if we don't see a return. And actually, we have approved that doing something like these are part of the mental wellbeing in the physical, mental wellbeing of our children, but they are turned that we can handle for society. We have proof with the Bauhaus that these methods work to have a moralistic approach to creativity with more freedom. And more experimentation can be an investment for how society manages, what we'll bring back is major if you think that the Bauhaus existed just for about 14 years, but changed the approach of life, the story of the world we live in, the cities we live in, and the structure of the way we live, our buildings -- because of the Bauhaus. The advertising that is the core of the soul of the business, they exist as they exist because of the Bauhaus, the smartphone, the minimalist design of the smartphone exists because these people, they invested on different research about design and minimalism.
Also, the structure of society, of the capitalism and neoliberalism, as we know it exists because of them. Because there's been the first one studying about design for mass production, Ikea, without them, didn't exist. So the problem is that society should really try to change their mind and focus in what is important, and what is important is not money, and power, they arrive, consequently, but without creativity, without the mind of people working and being healthy for making work their mind, we can't have either morning, and we are not able to advance anymore. We are in a point that we need to advance. We need to change things if we want to save our civilization. And it's so important to have new points of view, new minds working with it.
Lorna Collins 24:01
Thank you, Lydia. It's very illuminating. We've actually run out of time. Do you want to just say your last point, Thomas?
Thomas Kador 24:10
Well, I just wanted to say that we don't need to entirely reinvent the wheel either, because a lot of the seeds for some of the things we could do are already there, right? There are lots of examples of really good practice out there, and particularly the third sector and the voluntary sector in the community. So I think all we need to do is harness some of this, it just takes people recognising the benefit of this kind of fork and harness start.
Lorna Collins 24:39
Thank you to Lidia Lidia and Thomas Kador for what you have shared and for our collaborative thinking. I look forward to applying these ideas in our creative practice in our creative lives. Thank you to grand challenges for producing the podcast, UCL minds for publishing and the input of our numerous collaborators. Behind the scenes, the editing is by Nina Quach and the music is by Tim Moor. We will be back with another podcast in two weeks’ time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
