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SPEAKERS
Monica Lakhanpaul, Priti Parikh, Mamokgethi Phakeng
Monica Lakhanpaul
Hello, and welcome to part two of episode one of Unlocking the SDGs. a blueprint for the future, a brand new podcast series from the UCL Sustainable Development Goals initiative. I'm Monica Lakhanpaul, and I'm a professor of integrated community Child Health here at UCL, a pediatrician, and also pro Vice Provost for South Asia. I'm joined by my co-host Priti.
Priti Parikh
I'm Priti Parikh, and I'm an associate professor at the Bartlett School of Sustainable Construction, where I head the engineering for International Development Research Centre. Today, we're delighted to be joined by Professor Mamokgethi Phakeng in South Africa, Professor Phakeng is the Vice Chancellor of the University of Cape Town and is a huge advocate of the sustainable development goals and how they can be adapted and achieved throughout Africa. Mamokgethi, thank you so much for joining us. And welcome to the podcast.
Mamokgethi Phakeng
Thank you very much Priti.
Priti Parikh
I had the pleasure of meeting you at University College London about three years ago, and I felt so inspired after meeting you. We would love to find out more about how the SDGs are perceived in South Africa, what was this like pre-pandemic, and how has this perception changed post-COVID?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
I mean, it's interesting that even though you don't get people in social conversations, particularly in working class environments, talking about SDGs, South Africa. SDGs were actually recognised and enough focus on SDGs, as a country was sort of acknowledged. I mean the pre-pandemic report of 2019, on the SDGs in South Africa, which was prepared by Stats SA showed the strong parallel between South Africa's National Development Plan and the SDGs. So there was a strong parallel, of course, the SDGs are interesting because in a way, they foreground issues that are of importance to developing countries such as South Africa. So even though people do not talk about them as SDGs, those issues are issues that are important to many people. So they are very visible in our national development plan. And of course, even in some of the reports by the United Nations focusing on South Africa at the beginning of the pandemic, there's a recognition that the SDGs in South Africa are recognised, as to how are we doing with them, that's another issue. But they were recognised as those that we are doing something or doing well in achieving them and those that we are having a challenge in achieving them. And particularly when the pandemic started, you know, the SDG four and SDG eight, that highlighted as some of those that were having challenges achieving them because of low internet access. Therefore, schools and workplace closures affected the people who are in far flung areas with no network.
Priti Parikh
Well, it's fantastic to see the SDGs centre stage in the national development plans for South Africa. But I wanted to dig a bit deeper into something you were talking about that is the impact of COVID. So how do you feel COVID has impacted the achievement of the Sustainable Development Goals?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
COVID has sort of set us back if you like, it has had basically a negative effects on the SDGs. Because even the progress that that was made, it sort of was reversed or damaged. Because with COVID, and people losing jobs, many young people in rural areas not being able to continue with school, and therefore leaving school for a whole entire two years andnd some of them even this year, because the school is not in full force. So it's almost like the country has to redo the work that was done prior to COVID to get the children back into school. And you can imagine two years of not being in school, and not having access to education, you know, families and children get used to particular ways of doing things. And it's not just in South Africa, it's just generally in Africa, that has affected a lot of the gains that we had made in the past years. I mean, in South Africa, I would say the gains that we had made in the 26/27 years since the dawn of democracy. COVID also came at a time when our economy was greatly challenged with very low growth and limited wealth distribution. So it made South Africa one of the most unequal nations in the world.
Priti Parikh
Absolutely. I mean, I can say that in UK, we've seen COVID bring to the forefront existing vulnerabilities and inequities and have magnified and amplified them, so absolutely see how challenging things can be on the ground. You make a point about education in schools and how COVID has impacted education in schools, and I suspect that this will have a knock on impact on education in universities?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
Absolutely, it will, I mean, we will probably feel the pain for many years to come. I mean, the students who came at first year this year, had two years of learning remotely, I think the later groups that we get next year, we'll see the impact of COVID on their learning much more at university. But the other thing that I haven't mentioned in terms of other immediate effects, increases in people living in extreme poverty, and increases in people who just don't have food. And then, of course, the strain of public health resources, you know, on the pandemic, instead of HIV, malaria, TB, etc. So, in a province, such as ours, and of course, malaria in many countries on this continent, those diseases, sort of the attention moved from those diseases to the pandemic. And I think we will probably see the effects of that many years to come because the hospitals were dedicated to COVID patients, we don't know what impact this had on people who have cancer, people who are struggling with HIV, or TB, or any other other diseases that would have gotten attention pre-COVID. So I think some of the effects are going to be seen for a long time to come.
Monica Lakhanpaul
As a medical doctor I think in even in the UK, that's what we're seeing that there are other effects from COVID. And as you say, you know, what's the effects of cancer? What are the effects of the other illnesses that are affecting people? And how is that going to affect the wider population as well, and you mentioned malaria, you know, all the attention has moved away from malaria, yet, it's a very serious disease that we still need to tackle. And there's a danger that we don't pay attention to it. One thing I'd like to ask is, well, you know, we talked a little bit about education. And I understand that education is obviously something that you have been very, very focused on as well and wanting to promote positive education for individuals. And am I right to say that your own mother got her degree, was it at 58 years old?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
Yes. My mother's bachelor's degree yes.
Monica Lakhanpaul
I mean, when I heard that, how inspiring and how amazing is it that we are striving together to educate women, even at different ages. And one thing I also heard you speak about was your addiction to helping people. And I just thought that was a beautiful, beautiful way of describing yourself that you're addicted to helping people. And I think, through the SDGs, and through the way we're going to see the pandemic going forward, coming together, and trying to overcome some of these inequalities that we've talked about will be so so important. So I was just wondering, what kind of approach do you think the University of Cape Town who is a leader, obviously in this area in education and research is really taking to align its activity more towards the SDGs?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
You know we started looking at the work in 2015. We decided to do a scoping exercise on our research towards the SDGs. That's when we wanted to see how much of our work focuses on the SDGs. And the scoping exercise revealed that vast parts of UCT research make a significant contribution in one way or another towards the SDGs, and that was heartwarming. It was almost like they were designed by us or by Africans for us, because the issues that are researched, the majority of our research could be slotted in one or another of the SDGs. We even published booklets for each of the SDGs and publishing some of the clip stories of each of the research projects in their particular SDGs. So we are closely aligned with the overarching goals of SDGs. And we are involved in a number of research partnerships and collaborations that are committed to answering complex problems with solutions that will help to build a sustainable global future. All of these problems are closely tied to the goal of meeting the 17 SDGs. I mean, even at Vision 2030. I mean, even our previous vision, so in a way, I think I think it says something about how the SDGs were developed, that the process of developing the SDGs was inclusive and so in many ways reflects what many across the world would see as pressing problems of the world. So UCT Vision 2030, for example, state explicitly that our research is committed to unleashing knowledge in and for Africa, and to play a role in finding solutions for a more just and sustainable world. So when we crafted our vision 2030, just during 2020, we decided to go with a massive transformative purpose. And a massive transformative purpose is unleash human potential for a fair and just society. And that vision in my view aligns very closely with the SDGs. But also, specifically, if you read our vision document, you'll see that it also specifically locates us on the continent of Africa, it charges us with the responsibility to contribute to increasing African thought leadership in tackling the SDGs with our knowledge of local and continental context.
Monica Lakhanpaul
So you've kindly explained to us how critical UTC's position is, in addressing many of the different SDGs. And you use the words, you know, responsibility, really thinking about community and local context as well, which I think it's really important for us all to consider when we're considering an inclusive approach to the SDGs. And creating solutions for our communities that we serve. And UTCS position is obviously critical in this whole dialogue, but going towards other universities, or universities in general, for instance, you we're here at University College London, and yourselves in Africa, as well. But what do you think the role of universities in general is, in particular playing into achieving the SDGs, and how has this changed since COVID, do you think?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
I think universities have a critical role to play through through research, research that that emanates from an understanding of local contexts, and in a developing capacity to enable society to solve its own problems. And we can do this better in partnership. And for us on the continent, it's even more important that we play that role actively, of course, rather than just relying on the global north, in partnership with the global north, I think partnership is important in us achieving the SDGs. And of course, within the continent, we are a co-founder of ARUA, the African Research Universities Alliance, and the African Research Universities Alliance has got institute and centres of excellence, and we want two of them. One focusing on climate and development, the other on equalities, research. And the research that we're doing in those centres of excellence, aims to generate evidence and knowledge of how African societies can design and implement climate action to improve sustainable livelihoods and reduce both poverty and inequality. And we think we are better positioned to do that, to do this kind of work of being located on the continent, and we work with other institutions across the continent, as well as others in the UK. So as an ARUA, Centre of Excellence, so ARUA centres of excellence that we run, the one condition of the centres of excellence was to have collaboration between African institutions, as well as the global north so intra-African collaboration, as well as outside of Africa. And frankly, speaking, I mean, intra-African collaboration is important, but it's very rare. And so that's why in ARUA we were very explicit about the fact that it couldn't be embedded in the projects, because we can’t make a difference alone as UCT. It doesn't matter how good we think we are, we will not be able to do this alone. And so we've got to work with other institutions. So we have the alliance based in nine different countries, but with a common goal that's focused on expanding and enhancing the culture of research in Africa, but also on drawing our very limited resources together to tackle the big problems that we wouldn't be able to do on our own, and then drawing on partner institutions elsewhere in the world to work with. So pooling limited resources is important because with that, we can generate a critical mass that could more effectively support a growing number of researchers by developing African capacity, while we deepen our partnerships with the continent, in attracting partnerships with researchers outside of Africa, and the SDGs have helped with just focusing us getting all the universities that are in ARUA to focus on the same problems.
Monica Lakhanpaul
You mentioned some really key points there around collaboration and partnership, and also limited resources. I think we've seen In the world, only with COVID really that there's such limited resources around the world. And we really have to come together in partnership exchange knowledge. But seeing ARUA really driving this forward as an alliance, and recognising the role it has in bringing people together. Just wondering, you know, you talk about collaboration, partnership and ARUA and the alliance. But what do you think made people come together? Because often creating those alliances when people are really in competition, rather than collaboration is always really tricky. So just for some personal reflections really, how do you think it worked, and why do you think it worked? Recognising that one focus was delivering on the SDGs, but still to take people on that journey can obviously be very, very hard work?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
It's the fact that we all know the importance of intra-Africa collaboration. But it was always so difficult to select, who do you collaborate with, who are the like minded people? Because Africa is so big, and there are so many institutions. And so starting ARUA created a possibility to say we're going to focus on research intensive universities. And of course, the definition of research intensive in different regions in Africa is different. We didn't want the alliance to be full of South African institutions, we wanted all the regions on the continent to be included. And it was just a space to say, can we have this space with a limited number of universities that can focus on research, and they can be a voice for research universities, at the African Union, for example, they can be a voice for the importance of research in Africa, not only the African Union, but also in collaborating with entities outside South Africa, whether it's UKRI, or the guild or any other grouping, whether it's the Russell Group, and we felt that we can do that better in a smaller group as ARUA. And that came from a recognition that when you have limited resources, not only do you have to bring them together through collaboration, and so that you can have a much bigger impact together, but you also have to come to a place of comfort with differentiation, that we can never be the same. We can offer everything, all of us. And so some universities will have different strengths. So can we just recognise those strengths? And so that we have a voice in platforms that matter? Because if we don't do that, as economies struggle on the continent, we run the risk of our leaders, maybe making the decision not to fund research anymore, and that will be very harmful for the continent.
Priti Parikh
What lessons would you say we've learned from the pandemic regarding strengthening and better utilising local research capacity?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
You know, there's a lot of learnings that have come out of the pandemic. But first of all, the fact that our researchers could not travel anymore, at least for 18 months travel was just not possible. forced people to be creative in terms of how do they continue to work, either on their research alone or in collaboration with others who are elsewhere. Can they write proposals for grants together? Can they lead projects? And there's been some opportunities in the sense that in a way, I guess, for us in the continent, we often talk about helicopter research that we had a break of about 18 months, where it wasn't so easy for researchers from the west or from the northern hemisphere, just coming here to collect data and leaving, they needed to work with people in the country. Even if they get samples from the country or from the continent there was a need to have a PI or co PI here in the continent. And I think that's an important shift. And my hope is that even though this might not be widespread, in those areas where researchers on the African continent got an opportunity to be lead PIs precisely because of their context. They're located on the continent, and they were the ones who have access to the samples or the data or whatever and work with the collaborators online. I think it's an important shift. And I think the other lesson from the pandemic, it's that no problems are unique only to one country. I mean, I always say the global is local, the local is global. The challenges just manifest differently. The fact that we can't just take care of ourselves alone. We've got to work with others. The pandemic also has demonstrated what dire effects a global crisis can have on humanity as a whole. The effects of climate change and the expectation of more pandemics make it critical that as an international community, we work together to help build up the resources of our weakest members to be able to extend future crisis. If we do not do that we will all perish. And the best way to do it, is to focus on achieving the SDGs together as soon as possible, I think.
Priti Parikh
Absolutely. I mean, COVID in a way will change the way we collaborate together, work together to address some of those critical challenges, whether it's climate change, whether it's a post-pandemic recovery. You may not know this, but years ago, I spent time in University of Cape Town as a PhD student, talking to residents in townships there about their living conditions, and I felt so inspired during my time at University of Cape Town. I mean, I truly believe that your university is a leader in the field of sustainability and I know that recently, you brought together great minds across the continent for the international summit on the SDGs in Africa. Could you tell us a little bit more about the summit?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
Yeah we convened the SDGs Africa summit in 2021 to bring together diverse in class and achievers across different fields to build, the idea was to build conversations that would accelerate action around the SDGs. So we convened a series of conversations with leading academics and other people who are not academics, but are working in the field to focus on important complexities, dilemmas and potential accelerating activities with a particular focus on post-pandemic Africa, we selected key topics that can be addressed through keynote lectures and panel discussions. And we selected them to be broad looking at SDGs as they relate to Africa, and the African Union's agenda 2063. So we grappled with the important complexities and dilemmas that the continent faces in achieving the SDGs by 2030, and pushing the boundaries of current thinking and practices. So we have people from NGOs, from governments, from business, academics, and thought leaders, each potentially with their own agenda, but coming together to engage critically and compassionately with each other. On the same issue of how can we achieve the SDGs by 2030, as a continent, is it possible that we can do this. There were three lessons that emerged from the summit. The first is the understanding the universality of meaningful sustainable development alongside the need to introduce context based interventions. And the second lesson is presenting the required intensity to tackle the challenges before us in order to meet the approaching time horizon. And thirdly, continuing to appreciate the potential for integrated solutions to impact areas far beyond one's immediate focus. So we're trying to get people outside of their comfort zones to see how we can come up with integrated solutions, rather than thinking that each one should work on their own and just focus on their context and interventions that are fit for their context. And I think that it was a really important moment for us as a continent, because we haven't really as a continent have had that conversation, particularly across different sectors. Oftentimes, we have conversations and conferences about SDGs, but it's academics only, and then business will have a mining Indaba, and people in the mining industry alone, and this time, it was sort of the first time that we brought everyone else together.
Priti Parikh
I mean, it is remarkable that you managed to bring together stakeholders across sectors, so not just academics, talking about SDGs in silos, or people from industry talking about SDGs in silos, what were the key next steps that emerge for yourself and the group out of the summit?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
So the major key steps is to start projects that put into action, the agreements that were made, right, and some of those initiatives will be institutional, and some of them would be in collaboration with other institutions. In terms of institutional, one of the recognitions we made and at that conference, if you think about within a university environment, sustainable development, SDGs, or teaching is something that's that's focused on by academics and students. And we decided we should have a campus sustainability project that involves students, workers, cleaners, gardeners and whatever, admin staff in academics focusing on sustainability as a community to an extent that we collectively own the challenge of achieving the SDGs. But in terms of outside, it was to say, how do we bring everyone else together, because in a continent such as ours, activism around the SDGs is not a big, big focus, there can be activism around poverty, around unemployment but it's because of people who are affected by that people wouldn't necessarily see them as part of the wider hole of sustainable development. And so the idea here was, we need to mobilise across the different constituencies to have projects that include different constituencies that we had at the conference, so that the what we talked about doesn't end only in talk, but it goes on to doing something on the ground. And those projects that are supposed to start outside, those are the ones that are going slower, but the ones that are institutional, we started on those already.
Priti Parikh
It's fantastic to see this summit and the collaboration look externally to a wide range of stakeholders, but also internally in University of Cape Town influencing academics and students, especially students who are our future generation and hope. I had a question around the future of the SDGs, post 2030. So if you were in charge, and in leadership of either reformulating, repackaging the SDGs, what would you do post 2030?
Mamokgethi Phakeng
You know, I would actually focus on who do I get around the table to think about that for the future. I mean, I think the big thing that I'm concerned about in terms of achieving the SDGs in 2030, is the fact that there is a large community of people that is left behind, in discussing the achievement of the SDGs in the Global South, and specifically in Africa, we need to find ways to include the voices of the poor and marginalised. So our focus on getting those voices because until those voices own the problem, the problem would not be solved. In fact, it's so important because that's community or that group of people is growing daily, especially now after in COVID. And many see the responsibility to achieve the SDGs not as theirs. Either because they believe that the problem was started by someone else, and so that someone else has to solve that problem. And of course, there is a need to focus on what causes the problem, but there's also the side of managing the consequences of the problem. If we don't get the poor and marginalised on board, we will actually exacerbate the problem. Because many of the things that brought us to where we are, will be difficult to stop, if the poor believe that they are there to serve them. So I would go to young people in poor areas, and I would sit with them about and talk about where the world is going where they want it to go, and then have goals from there. Because I would want whatever we take forward to be owned by the most disadvantaged people in the world. If you do not have the most disadvantaged people in the world owning the problem, then the problem will never be solved. In fact, you will get the most disadvantaged people wanting actually to destroy the attempts to solve the problem, because they might see it as a way to disadvantage them further. So I would make that my focus.
Priti Parikh
Absolutely, I think it's important to speak to our youth, because they are the ones who will inherit the challenges, but they are the ones who will lead future solutions, and it's so important to engage with disadvantaged communities, especially post-COVID. It's been such a pleasure and privilege discussing the SDGs in a post-COVID world with you today. We are so grateful that you could spare time to discuss this vital important issue with us. Thank you so much.
Mamokgethi Phakeng
Thank you very much Priti for inviting me.
Monica Lakhanpaul
You've been listening to unlocking the SDGs a blueprint For the future, this episode was presented by me Professor Monica Lakhanpaul
Priti Parikh
And me Dr. Priti Parikh
Monica Lakhanpaul
And produced by the UCL SDGs initiative, with support from UCL global engagement and edited by Front Ear.
Priti Parikh
Our guest today was Professor Mamokgethi Phakeng from the University of Cape Town.
Monica Lakhanpaul
Don't forget, if you haven't listened to part one of this episode, go back and do that now.
Priti Parikh
If you'd like to hear more podcasts from UCL, subscribe to UCL Minds wherever you download your podcasts.
Monica Lakhanpaul
We'll be back soon for episode two.