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Shanidar Cave: Northern Iraq's important Neanderthal site - a conversation with Dlshad A. Mutalb
Mehiyar 0:00 Welcome to the Nahrein Network podcast series. Today we're with Dlshad A. Mutalb from the Directorate of Antiquities of Soran, which is part of the General Directorate of Antiquities in Iraqi Kurdistan. Hello, Dlshad, how are you?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 0:13 I'm fine, thank you.
Mehiyar 0:14 You've won a scholarship from the British Institute for the Study of Iraq, and the Nahrein Network. And now you're coming to a close, you're the end of your scholarship, you're based at Cambridge University, supervised and supported by Professor Graeme Barker. Can you tell us about your scholarship?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 0:32 We have a very famous site Paleolithic site, it is a well known site over the world. But it has not been pleasant well, to the public to show the importance of the cave. So we were thinking about presenting this important site to public. And we have already thought about and tried, but it needs a lot of research and thinking about and holding conference and talking to professionals, and also visiting other that present to public especially in Europe. So we didn't have opportunity back in our country. But gratefully, the Nahrein scholarship gave opportunity to me to come to UK and also to to McDonald Institute, to ...
Mehiyar 1:18 This is the McDonald Institute, in Cambridge, Cambridge University.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 1:22 Yes, it is. And to do research, to visit other sites, to be in touch with professionals, and also to search in the library and the treasure, which a lot of books are available that we don't even have access back in our country. We don't have good libraries there. So also, I have been attending some classes that I got a lot of experience in terms of heritage management generally, and also how we can present a site or what museums are about which I benefited a lot from this and it broadened my horizon, honestly. An d I got a lot of ideas to make a proposal to build this site. But again, it's it needs more research and more talking. Yeah.
Mehiyar 2:09 So Soran is a district of Erbil. It is at the district of the governor of Erbil.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 2:17 Yeah.
Mehiyar 2:17 And in this in Soran, you have the very famous Shanidar cave, which is among one of the responsibilities of course, you're responsible for other archaeological and heritage sites. You're part of the section of archaeological affairs in Soran. Could you tell us about the this very important site, which is the Shanidar cave?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 2:38 Yes, sure. As you have mentioned, Shanidar cave is one of the archeological sites that we manage in Northern Iraq and in Northern Erbil. This site first was visited and discovered by Professor Ralph Solecki who's an American anthropologist. At that time, he came to Iraq as an archaeologist, he was anthropologist, but joined the Michigan Expedition to do a survey in the Rawandiz region at the time the area was called Rawandiz is because Rawandiz was also a town, that capital of Soran Emirites. He visited many caves in the region. He did an article scarcity and he published his work, which is archeological, civic of our culture caves in northern Iraq. One of the caves was Shanidar. He was told by someone sometimes he said, tell him about that. Anyway, he visited for 10 minutes in I think it's July 9, in 1951. When he looked at the site, he was so impressed by the cave. He directly go, went back to Baghdad, applied for permission started his war. He started with a test range, which is a small trench small scale excavation, to see the sequence to see how the potential of the occasional potential or of the cave when he started because he started his skeletons in in 1951. But when he started, he knew that this cave has high potential for archaeology, for article discovery in 1952. And also in other seasons, he worked for four seasons and later on. During 60s He couldn't come back to to the region to continue his work because of instability in the region. In 1978, he came back for some days, and then he also left because of these reasons, but during this period, he could find a lot of archaeological finds including lithics, bones and pottery and I mean, old ones modern ones because even at that time, Solecki was working at the cave. The cave was used by by people who, who were taking care of hearths coming back for winter and moving to we call it Creston, which is cooler places, close to Iranian border during summer. Even till 2006, they were living there. They were also they were they have small houses. They were living in.
Mehiyar 5:13 In the cave itself or outside the cave?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 5:16 Inside the cave, also outside the cave. They are religious and so they are these temporary settlements.
Mehiyar 5:23 So it's always been used by the people there.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 5:26 Yeah, it has been used as a settle to some seekers. But again, the cave was presented to public, then these people had to leave the cave. Back to your question about the discoveries he could find during his excavation. He went down about 14 meters deep, which is the stratigraphic of the sediment. It's, it's a lot. And the cave is a really big key just started in the middle of the cave to excavate. He could find four main phases during time start to the mousterian to ordination, and then to mesolithic, which Xian and Neolithic also till the recent periods. As I said, he also found from Ottoman period as well. When of the most discoveries with Neanderthal skeletons, which he could find about 10 Neanderthal skeletons in the sediment. And also he found proto Neolithic cemetery, which is about 55 in some, yes, skeletons. In some books, he says 29. But I think in some say 35. But anyway, that's huge number of individuals were buried in Adelaide of the cave.
Mehiyar 6:45 These are not Neanderthals.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 6:46 They are Homosapiens. And he also mentioned in his reports, it is something rare in the region to have a proto neolithic cemetery , which contains that many individuals and it's buried at the rear of the cave. He found 10 Neanderthal skeletons. One of them which which has been a debate for a long time was called. The samples were taken about one of them which called Shanidar.
Mehiyar 7:18 This is selected in his famous book because is called the flower.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 7:21 Yeah, famous what's not all about the that individual. So it's about the whole excavation that he started from the beginning. And also other stories because I was lucky, I think, because he was an anthropologist. It's not just about archaeology to say, to talk about archaeology. He also talks about other stories, that's not directly related to archaeology; for example, how people live it in the cave, how women was going to spring to bring water and men was in. So this kind of stuff also included this in his famous book, but anyway, about his book, which is about just the name was the name also the title of the book is about first burial. The idea came from a French lady who was analyzing these soil samples. And she could find pollen of the flowers that she was she's so that this floor cannot or this pollen cannot get there by chance. To have conclusion that can't get there by by chance and this collection of pollen. So by this the idea how to develop the theory development that this skeleton this individual, should have been taken care of. And when he used when he died, other people came back and like ritual, they put these flowers on on their burial. So it's also one of the research questions for new proposal for new excavation that Professor Graeme Barker of the University of Cambridge is doing now.
Mehiyar 8:22 Can you tell us more about how the cave is used today, the tourism that exists, tourism is seasonal, what kind of facilities exist on the cave site itself in terms of a learning resource or a resource to form visitors about Shanidar cave?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 9:17 As I see, it seems the site has been presented to public and because also the road was I mean, it's a little bit far from the road is not it's also sloped for people. It's not easy to get there. A road and stay cases has been built to add the access to the site in order to be easier even so some visitors still find it not easy because of climbing of the slop. But this has been done for the site. Now successed. It has access to for public together, but because Shanidar cave is really important and it has been excavated as I said during 50s. And now also new projects, Professor Graeme Barker heads back to Green Barker at the University of Cambridge is coming back to the cave to excavate and to requestion. To to do research about the automation, and new, also new question is that raise it over time to answer these questions. So it's, it is very, very important site. But this the importance of the cave is mostly in, in literature. And in the mind, or in the head of the let's say specialist is or archaeologist is work on, it's not well put present it to public. We will there do it, especially during spring, we got opportunity to talk to public and to explain to them, but there's nothing else apart from some simple science tell a little bit story about the site. It's not really presented. And the even though the cave has, I mean, it's visited by a huge amount of obviously, a lot of people, especially during spring because the nature is very nice during spring and people is it's kind of people use it to go out especially when the economic is good. They go out to the nature the nature is is nice. It's green. Also, they get opportunity to take opportunity to visit the cave as well.
Mehiyar 11:24 So they go on picnics in the area, and then they visit the cave. Yeah, most people just go and visit the cave.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 11:31 We have also people that they want just want to visit the cave, especially international people, tourists who come to the area and they want to, to visit the cave, this site is very important, but the importance of the site has not been presented good enough to public. It is another... That's why I'm here in order to do research and to present this important side to public. Because if we could demonstrate the importance of the site to public and sure, public can get better educated in terms of archaeology and how to protect archaeology. Also, they get a better understanding of cave, the site that they have visited and also it attracts, it attracts the... a lot of tourists inside locally and international tourists and which can contribute in improving the economy.
Mehiyar 12:27 When they go to the site. What do they actually see, could you just put for our listeners could you just describe what they see in terms of when they visit the site.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 12:35 First, when you go to the cave, you see a nice landscape. And then you need to climb the A, the slop by car you can do you can get close by the cave, which is probably some some just few minutes from the road down to close to the cave, which takes some into but it's a hard slope. And then there are steps probably. I can't remember the exact number but be about 400 300 400 steps you need to take. 399 something like this.
Mehiyar 13:13 So it's difficult for older people to go and people with this very area.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 13:17 It's not an easy job. I mean for all people but they can't get there. I mean, if they are patient and they are into it, and they would really like to see the case. It's possible. But it takes probably longer and they need to be patient and this is what what has been done for the cave and when they go to the cave, the cave has very big entrance, which also probably one reason why it has been used over time because it's one factor for for for any site to be used. Because it's very high the entrance. The entrance so big. I should have these dimensions really. Yes, I'm not very good with numbers, but could be about 10 meters high and about 25 to 30 meters wide. It's quite a large. Yeah. And it's a ... Yeah, it's a triangular shape.
Mehiyar 14:16 And how deep does it go into?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 14:19 50 meters probably
Mehiyar 14:20 15
Dlshad A. Mutalb 14:21 50
Mehiyar 14:22 50 meters Dlshad A. Mutalb 14:23 Something like this. Yes.
Mehiyar 14:24 It's a very big cave.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 14:25 Yeah, it's a big cave. There's a fence in front of the cave. And it was designed to control tourists to get in or not to get in because also it's a decision how after coming from this this long distance. Do you lead them to getting to get very close or do you just let them outside? So it's another discussion for us to make the decision. But anyway though, defense has been also broken because people won't disclose it. People try to get in. And inside the cave, it is not there is no restriction apart from these fans, which is in front of the cave, there is no other restriction. Recently, a fence also has been made around the excavation area because the new excavation has removed the backfill from all excavation. And now it's also it's dangerous for tourists if they get close to the edge. And also it's dangerous for archaeology to you lose archaeology. And there are, as I said, there are remains of younger, sometimes over overseas, and we leave it in the city because there's not enough time to dig it properly. So there's a fence inside around the excavation area to protect the excavation. Otherwise, it's open. And also, as I said, it is warm, it's facing to to sun for the most of the day, which is which make the cave warm for people to use it during any period of time before. And also there's enough light for people to see inside cave. There's chamber behind the cave, which is which, by a small tunnel leads to the chamber. That needs to be it's not, there's no light. When we present this to public, we need to think about this small turnnel how we can make it safe for people to have access to it and then inside the chamber which is mostly, which is attract attractive for tourists, how we can arrange light in order to for people to see it to get there to see it answer to attract their attention.
Mehiyar 14:45 Obviously the scholarship business or practice oriented, your scholarship is also looking at ways of strengthening the site locally in terms of tourism, its potential. And of course, you've made lots of connections, both in Cambridge in London, perhaps other places. I know you've been to several museums, could you tell us about that part of your work?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 16:53 Yeah. Before coming here, as I said, I have some ideas and some idea, some ideas were not let's see well developed. When I came here, I got the opportunity to develop these ideas that I have before. And also to get much more ideas about how we can print the site. As I said before, and also you mentioned that you can get that through literature through talking to people, listening to people through visiting other sites. Now I have a lot of ideas about the cave. And these ideas, some special industry, the ideas that were not well developed before now are very well developed. But I'm not saying that this is enough. As I said before, we need more research, we need to develop ideas more discuss about it from many aspects. The more we discuss, the more you you have better proposal. Let's say... and it is better now to discuss it to think about it not later. For now, what I can say is this that in terms of having ideas, we have ideas, it is about how we can put these ideas into reality. This is also another stair step or on the stage, we can we should do it. I have learned a lot being here. And I should say I should thank the Nahrein scholarship to give me this opportunity. In addition to this project, which is the point of getting the scholarship, I could attend some classes in the department of heritage management, which I was thinking about since 2015, and 16, which is like a dream to have applied for scholarships to be there. We dealed with a lot of problems back in our country. And also in these courses. I learned that these problems, I mean, not all of them, but some are, let's see universal. They are everywhere. They have to do with heritage itself, how you manage heritage. And these making arguments dealing with thinking about making questions will be very helpful to come up with a solution. It doesn't mean that we can solve all problems, but it helps with coming up with solutions and that Would it improve your situation. In addition to that, I got opportunity to meet European professionals, especially professionals in the UK, who combat against serious traffic which is also another big issue in our country. As I said it was great to have this opportunity to be here that is not I mean I I benefited a lot from the from developing our ideas about how we can preview present this important site to public, which was great, but also have learned our... got benefit how University for example, such a leading university like Cambridge teach and to make connections with people. We cannot do our we cannot manage heritage in our country just by our own if you are not connected with outside world with such a development developed country like UK also with internetional professionals. We learned from them when we talk when we exchange ideas.
Mehiyar 20:05 Dlshad, could you tell us a bit about the other sites in Soran? And their potential in terms of tourism and, and ways in which they could be presented in a way that is user friendly visitor friendly?
Dlshad A. Mutalb 20:21 Yes, sure. In our in our region, we have sites that are dating from different periods and some sites for example, like Bastogne and young cave. They are very deep caves, comparing with Shanidar. They have subtitles that might so these things are really can help to attract the tourists attention. I'm sure they will be interested if we can present these sites to them as well. In addition to that, we have also sites that dating back to Islamic periods and Ottoman period that especially belongs to Surah emirate, which rule in the area during Ottoman Empire. In our recent history, we didn't have an emperor that rules the whole Kurdistan. So something important for Kurdish and local community to to have and to present such a site like this, that they that belongs to southern emirate, which is which is the capitals in ones are ones also is one of the districts that we manage heritage. We are responsible for heritage managing heritage in this one. So if we can put all of this together, make like a tour for tourists. I'm sure tourists will benefit much more than they do right now. Because we have a resource that a lot of people international and from Iraq also middle and Southern Iraq. They come to see these resources. But because these sites are not well-presented or not well-advertised. They don't know a lot about about it. If we can present them in a way, let's say and organize it way with plans, then we can take groups like tour to go to Shanidar Cave which we can show them a very important site all site with Neanderthals homosapiens. And these rituals and other recent that practice. Also go to Citadel or capital of Sorah emirate and show show them some citadel and some they say recent modern, not modern, but recent architecture in the region.
Mehiyar 22:40 On that note, thank you very much Dlshad. I hope that you have a safe journey back to Iraq and that you've continued the great work you you're doing.
Dlshad A. Mutalb 22:50 Thank you very much and I should say is many thanks for Nahrein scholarship and for all their staff who really helped us giving this opportunity and also organizing my trip to be here. And for sure I will do my best to improve our system of managing heritage and present particular conserving and protecting our sites and also present in our sites to public. And anything I can do for our heritage. I should I will do my best.
Mehiyar 23:18 Thank you very much. You're very welcome.