Episode 4: To freeze, or not to freeze (your eggs)

Transcript

Speakers:

Host - Olivia

Guest – Dr. Zeynep Gurtin 

Olivia Moir  0:08   

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to it all starts here. This is a podcast focusing on the communication and education of topics in reproductive science and women's health. I'm your host, Olivia Moir and we are here at the Institute for Women's Health, here at UCL in London. And today's topic is, as you can see, by the title, going to focus on egg freezing, which is something that, of course has been trending a lot recently in the media. But as well as that is something that is very important to talk about. So today I have with me the lovely Dr. Zeynep Gurtin, who is a lecturer and sociologist of reproduction and gender here at the Institute for Women's Health. Her research interests are really just in the social, ethical and relational issues surrounding fertility, and fertility, assisted reproductive technologies, such as egg freezing, and new family forms. So I am so thrilled to have you here today to talk about egg freezing and hear all about this topic from your perspectives, as well as you know, the different ones that you've done your research on. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  1:25   

Yeah, it's great to be here. Thank you very much, Olivia. 

Olivia Moir  1:28   

So I mean, I always kind of like to take a bit of a historical point of view on the topic. And as you mentioned, this has been going on now, egg freezing has been going on now for about a decade. So since 2013. And I thought to start off, why don't we kind of look at it across the 10 years, what has this decade, shown us about this topic and really just dive right in? 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  1:54   

Yeah, and I guess it might be useful to just mention, before we go into that we can think about sperm freezing, which has been around for much, much longer. So one of the questions we get asked is, why is egg freezing a new technology when sperm freezing has been around for a very long time. And that's really to do with the technicalities of the kinds of cells that eggs are eggs are very large cells, the largest cell in the human body, and they have a high water content. So even though scientists were trying to freeze eggs for quite a long time before, the success rates were really low, because those cells didn't respond very well to freezing. It sort of the process was described as you know, they almost caused shards, as they crystallized as they tried to freeze. And it's really in the early 2000s that a new technique developed which is called flash freezing, or vitrification, which froze the exile instantaneously, pretty much that started to yield higher success rates. And that was very experimental for around a decade. And then really in 2012, and the start of 2013 is when we see the professional bodies both the American Society of Reproductive Medicine and the European Society for Human Reproduction and embryology begin to say, okay, based on the randomized control trials, we now have, we can say that the success rates for egg freezing are improving. And with caution, women can start to use this as part of their reproductive planning. So the decade that I refer to, in terms of egg freezing is really that decades since the professional bodies have sort of okay, the use of this technology for for women who are electing to undergo this procedure. 

Olivia Moir  3:46   

Wow. Yeah, that's, I mean, crazy to know that it's something that I think that's kind of holds true for various topics relating to women's health where, you know, it takes a little bit of time, maybe too long to get these different things kind of kicked off their feet. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  4:02   

The advancement comes a bit slower than when we're talking about men's health, perhaps. 

Olivia Moir  4:06   

Yes, yeah. So I mean, in terms of this egg freezing, there are obviously a whole bunch of questions that people have. But I guess, first and foremost, what is like maybe we can just do an overview of the topic, what is involved in the process? Because I think, you know, when people first think of egg freezing, obviously, we know that you have to get the eggs and they get put somewhere, but what does that really look like? 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  4:34   

Yeah, so the underlying logic of egg freezing is all to do with reproductive aging. So as women get older, they have fewer eggs, and the remaining eggs that they have are poorer in quality. So this is why as women get older, particularly in their late 30s and early 40s. They tend to have more miscarriages because their eggs have Have more chromosomal abnormalities, and they find it harder to get pregnant. So the underlying logic of egg freezing is that if you can take out some eggs, when you're younger, on flash freeze them and store them exactly as they are. That gives you the possibility to try to conceive with those younger eggs at an older age when it's the right time for you to try and have a baby. So that's kind of the backdrop. And obviously, we're now living in an era where age of motherhood is increasing, right across, right across the Western world and beyond. So this is something that might be relevant to increasing numbers of women. And then, as you said, what's involved is, it's almost like we're much more familiar with the idea of IVF. And egg freezing is almost like half an IVF cycle. So a woman needs to take drugs hormones, in order to stimulate her ovaries to develop multiple eggs, as opposed to the one egg that would usually be developed in a month. And then those eggs are taken out with a surgical procedure, sort of using trans vaginal needle. And then once the eggs are collected, unlike in IVF, where they would be fertilized with sperm and creating embryos, once they're collected, they would be flushed frozen immediately. And then the idea is they're there in storage, if you wish to come back and use them at a future date, at which point, you'd need to thaw them and then fertilize them with sperm create embryos, almost like the second half of an IVF process. 

Olivia Moir  6:31   

That's, I mean, just hearing about it from you. It's crazy. I it just is way more, I think, invasive than I mean, at least I had thought but I think a lot of people unless they're really going through it come to believe because there's just you know, on top of the actual procedure, like you said, there's hormones that you have to take, which is, you know, really affects your entire lifestyle. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  6:54   

Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes egg freezing is talked about in fairly flippant terms, or in very elective terms or in, you know, in the same breath as something like Botox. And that really can minimize the extent to which we're talking about a medical procedure. And like every medical procedure, there are potential side effects. And there are potential risks. And most of those risks are fairly well managed, very well managed, in most cases, and most people tolerate the side effects quite well. But it's important to know that some women do suffer from risks and side effects. And I think one of the problems is that because egg freezing is talked about in this rather 

Olivia Moir  7:41   

light hearted, 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  7:42   

Light hearted, yes, as if it's almost like a luxury product kind of way. Some women do find themselves entering the procedure, without a full appreciation of what might go wrong, or what might be involved, which, you know, that's really problematic, because we really want people, especially when they're undertaking a medical procedure, to be fully aware of those potential difficulties. 

Olivia Moir  8:06   

Yeah, absolutely. It's so important. And, you know, as I sort of said, at the beginning of the episode, it's something that is kind of a trending topic. And I like kind of how you refer to it. Similarly, as you know, luxury treatments, for example, Botox, because it's so true. I mean, we see celebrities doing it and talking about it. And there's kind of a glamour around it. I think there are absolutely some, you know, celebrities who talk about it in a more in depth way, which I think is really important and important to illustrate the process. But yeah, I think it's definitely kind of over glamorized. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  8:43   

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, when, when I talk to women about egg freezing, most women might not know anybody who's been through an egg freezing process. But as I said, the medical process itself is like the first half of IVF. And almost everybody knows someone that's been through IVF. And if you speak to anybody that's been through an IVF cycle, they will tell you very clearly, it's not that simple. It's not that easy. It can be quite taxing on the body, you know, some people can find it quite uncomfortable. And in a way, it seems that it's more acceptable to talk about those difficulties when you're going through IVF as opposed to if you're going through egg freezing with the kind of the implicit assumption being well, you chose to do this. So you know, just put up with it. 

Olivia Moir  9:32   

Totally. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess one of the troubles that it is for me is is its its solution, you know, I guess we can dive into you know who it is that's really doing this. It's kind of proposed as a bit of a solution, which we can talk about further But who is it I mean, through your research of people that are doing egg freezing, I know that often you know, my mind goes to people who want to have it as potentially an option to help with their, you know, careers or, you know, have something going for them. They want to spend more time without children, but they don't want to cross off that possibility in the future. I mean, what do you find is true? Like, are there certain groups of people? Yeah, more than others? 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  10:20   

Absolutely. So there are two main groups of people that are freezing their eggs. One group are precisely like you've described, and I call those women, you know, proactive, egg freezes. And they tend to be in their early 30s, late 20s, early 30s. These are young women who either know that they have a long career trajectory, you know, they are, they are starting out as lawyers or doctors or in the Foreign Service, or, you know, they have these quite exciting professional careers, which they know, it's going to take a little bit of time before they're in that place, ready to settle down and have a family. And what they want to do is make sure that they are freezing their eggs now, so that if they decide to have a family, you know, in 5,6,7,8,9,10-years time, they have these younger eggs stored, and those women tend to feel quite positively about the process, they feel like they're making quite an empowering decision. So that's the first group, the second group of women tend to be older. So women in their late 30s, or early 40s. And those women really are, I call them preservers, they're preserving their remaining fertility, they're not really intending to delay becoming a mother. Many of them say they really wish they could have been mothers by that point, they had expected to be mothers by that point. And either they have come out of a relationship fairly recently, a relationship that they thought was going to progress into having children, or they haven't been able to find the right partner to have a family with. And they're sort of at a stage where they feel like if I don't do something, now, I'm going to lose my remaining fertility. So and actually, those women tend to be much more anxious because they're not necessarily freezing their eggs, because that's what they really wanted to do. They're freezing their eggs, because they don't really have, they don't really feel like they have many other options. They don't want to become solo mums. They know that they'd really like to have a shot at motherhood, but they just want to buy time to perhaps find another partner or something like that. And you know that the profiles of those two groups are slightly different and distinct, and kind of the emotional journey for those groups is slightly different. 

Olivia Moir  12:45   

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what was the statistic that you were telling me when we were talking about this, I think it was something. So the people that are freezing their eggs out of those two groups in general, to generalize, you were saying one in five people will go back and get their eggs?  

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  13:03   

Well, not necessarily will, but if we look at some of the data we have right now. So a few years ago, I did a study with the largest clinic in London that's providing egg freezing. And what we found in that research was that one in five women had come back. So you know, that's, that, that could change in the future. But looking through their data over a 10 year period, only one in five of the women who had frozen their eggs had come back. So it could be that we don't really know what happened to the other 4/5. Right. Did they have children, naturally outside of a clinic setting? Did they decide not to have children? Are they still undecided? And are still leaving their eggs in storage? For some point in the future? We really don't know. But it was that's quite small number that had come back to us their use their eggs. And that sort of really echoes the research we have globally at the moment is we know a lot more about women who are freezing their eggs and a lot less about anybody who has come back to use their frozen eggs, because the number of women who have done that is still really relatively small. 

Olivia Moir  14:16   

That's so interesting. I mean, I wonder, because, you know, as I kind of alluded to earlier, obviously, egg freezing is a really nice kind of, it's presented in a nice way as a solution. You know, I look at that kind of, I hope not to be able, or I hope to not have to go through that kind of procedure, because obviously anything that requires additional kind of medical care can be there are different things about that, that people don't necessarily want to go to or go through. But in terms of having it as a sort of solution. I think it's important to talk about obviously, as we mentioned the the risks that are involved, but why you know people are doing it like what are the modes Patients behind it because I remember we were talking about this a little bit earlier, I sort of look at it as you know, if I want to continue my career and have kids, eventually in my life, having that as sort of an option to fall back on, could be helpful for me. And I think, you know, it's kind of promoted that way in our society. But I guess I'm kind of wondering, like, maybe the way that we look, look at it shouldn't be so much as like, it just feels a bit like a false hope, based off of- 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  15:35   

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm glad you used the phrasing, you know, something that you could fall back on. I think that's a much better way of thinking about it, then, than the term that's often used, which is an insurance policy, I think it's really important to convey the idea that egg freezing is by no means an insurance policy. So I think one of the biggest risks, this is not a physical risk or a medical risk. But one of the biggest risks of egg freezing, is that people will have mistaken ideas about their likely chances of success of having babies from those eggs. So it's definitely egg freezing is not the kind of technology where you can put some eggs aside, and you can think to yourself, Well, if the ever I want a baby, there they are. No, at the moment, the success rates we have from egg freezing look, look like one and five. And they may increase a little bit over the next decade to something like one in four. But that's still a lot lower than what many people might think, right. And you know, there are many cases of women who freeze their eggs, let's say they freeze 10x 12 eggs, and then they go back six, seven years later, and none of that eggs survive the thought process. And of course, those cases are not talked about, you know, what we see are, because this is a big commercial field as well, let's be let's be honest and realistic about that. So what we see highlighted, and what we see exaggerated, and what we see represented, is the potential hope this technology offers, and is the kind of potential benefits now we see much less discussion of those cases where, you know, people are just left devastated or disappointed. So I think it's really important if anybody is freezing their eggs that they do think about it, as you know, like a fallback, something you really shouldn't be relying on as your plan A, because something that has a one in five or one in 4% chance of success should should never be the, you know, the main plan that you rely on? 

Olivia Moir  17:48   

Right. Yeah, I think, you know, obviously, it's kind of presented in a way where it's, it's meant to give you a bit of comfort, you know, I mean, for so long, and still, you know, the whole process of reproduction, most of that falls on the woman. And you know, in our society, we've made great advancements in terms of like a woman's ability to participate in the workforce through various different fields. And so I think the having egg freezing is sort of a way to like, coincide with that maybe it's a technology that's meant to help women, but I think, obviously, you have to have the right balance between the information related to egg freezing and the different areas of education on this topic, so that you can go into it in an informed way. Because I mean, by no means in this episode two, I want to say like, don't think of egg freezing as a possible solution. You know, of course, it could be that for you. And I think it's important to empower women, because that's what it's really all about. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  18:52   

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not anybody's business to tell another woman what is or is not right for her. So introductive trajectory, or her fertility, you know, these are really decisions women need to make for themselves in a way that suits their life and their life plans. So egg freezing, could absolutely be the right decision for one woman. But it could be the absolutely wrong decision for another woman based on how they're making that decision and what information they have to go on. So I think the really important thing is that women are fully informed about the side effects, the risks, the success rates, you know, in a really kind of realistic and fully transparent way so that they can decide not just whether they want to put their bodies through that medical procedure, but do they want to fork out five-, ten-thousand pounds? And you know, of course that's not that's still absolutely not accessible to the great majority of people. Because it's so expensive. But for some women, regardless of the expense, or regardless of the very small success rate, it could be the absolute right thing. But what's important is that that kind of information is available, and that women aren't duped into freezing their eggs by by the promise of false hope. 

Olivia Moir  20:19   

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. And then I totally agree. In terms of, you know, we've touched on how it really does come down to the woman and I completely agree with you. I mean, everyone should be able to make their own their own choices for themselves, based off of as much information as they can be provided with, do you think that there's a way though, for, you know, the partner or in you know, let's just talk about it in a heterosexual couple? The man like, is there a role for the man of course, you know, you don't want you know, some guy telling you, oh, you know, you better freeze your eggs, not in that way. But is there a way that they can help in the process? Is there a way that can be more involved? I mean,  

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  21:03   

Yeah, most at the moment, from what we know, most of the women who freeze their eggs tend to be single, and not in a relationship. Or they tend to be in relationships that are unstable or uncommitted. So you know, we do also see women who are freezing their eggs, because their partner is not necessarily committed to the relationship or not necessarily committed to having children. And in those cases, it's a little bit of a problem, right? Because if you have, if you have a disagreement in a relationship, and then the male partner says, Well, I don't know, you can just freeze your eggs. That's sort of that's the kind of dynamic we don't want to see. On the other hand, just like any medical procedure, if you are in a partnership, and your partner is going through something, of course, there are so many ways to be supportive, and kind and, you know, just to make that person feel safe, and supported while they're going through that. I think it's really interesting to think about, you know, particularly as a sociologist, something I do think about is a fairly new technology like this, how might affect gender relations going forward? And how might it affect how women think about their own responsibility, their fertility, their negotiating power in relationships, I mean, some feminist feminists have been concerned that if the technology of egg freezing exists, then it almost gives men who want to postpone having children, kind of like a get out clause, you know, that you don't have to make that decision right away, you could get your partner to freeze their eggs, and then prolong the amount of time you have to make decisions. And again, you know, that's probably not an advisable route. But it's interesting to think and see how these things are going to develop in the coming decades. 

Olivia Moir  23:01   

Yeah, no, I, I really, it's something that I you know, whether it's talking about egg freezing, or it's talking about different topics in reproductive science and women's health, I think something that we have said, since the beginning of this series, and you know, has become, you know, more evident to me is it's just it always comes down to the woman. Like always, and I guess, I just think that a way to move forward, not only should we be taking in, you know, opinions to educate women, but it should also be to educate the man like their, or you know, the partner, because there's just so much room to include more people. Obviously, there are spaces where it's the individuals choice, but I think it is important to be able to feel like you have the support of other people in the community. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  23:47   

Absolutely. And you know, more broadly, when I started out talking about this issue of rising age of motherhood, or later motherhood, which we're seeing right across the world, and that's often talked about in terms of women postponing childbearing or women wanting to have children later. And actually, what some researchers and sociologists have argued is that much more than women, it's the men who are wanting to have children later, and women who are needing to fit in with that. So there is a very important piece around fertility education that needs to be addressed to both men and women. So to constantly tell women that their fertility is declining, without also telling men that that message is kind of missing half the audience as it were, you know, men need to be aware that their female partners have a limited reproductive lifespan. So if they do want to, you know, create families with their partners, they need to also take that into account, you know, and that has to be maybe as a society, we just need to be a little bit more were of that a little bit more supportive of that? Yeah. To both men's and women's sake?  

Olivia Moir  25:07   

Absolutely. Yeah. So talking a little bit about this, shifting it towards more of a ethical kind of gear. I mean, egg freezing, obviously, there are so many different stages where I think ethical concerns and issues can arise. But I mean, you talked about people that come back and for their eggs, one and five, roughly, the people that aren't coming back for the eggs, I mean, how long are those cups? Obviously, we're talking about in the UK here. But yeah, you know, how long are they kept, and what happens to them when they're not used. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  25:41   

Yeah, so in the UK, we used to have a law that said, eggs frozen for elective reasons. So not for medical reasons, let's sort of put that aside. That's a whole other scenario. But eggs that were frozen for social reasons until last year, could only be stored for up to 10 years. So if you froze your eggs, when you were 32, you had to either use them or discard them, by the time you were 42. That was just that 10 year limit. And that changed last year, and now the eggs can be stored up to 55 years, which, you know, a lot of people find that really weird, you know, 10 years might be too short of time, but 55, that seems like a crazy long time. But that was just to do with sort of the technicalities of, of the of the legal structure and framework. So effectively, effectively, what that means is there isn't there isn't a deadline on storage at the moment. So those eggs can be, you know, as long as you keep giving consent, every 10 years, you can store them for up to 55 years. One of the concerns people have about that is that even women who are no longer considering using their eggs, either because they are too old, or they've created families, they might just want to keep them in storage, because these are quite precious entities that you know, most women will have gone through quite a lot to get. And it's possible that you might have complicated emotional relationship or complicated emotional feelings about those eggs. And so it is concerned that we might end up with 1000s and 1000s of eggs in storage in different laboratories across the UK. And again, as I said, this is a fairly new law that's just come in. So we don't know, we don't know, we'll women as soon as they have completed their desired family size, or as soon as they've decided they actually don't want children. Will they call the clinic and dispose of those eggs? Do they don't have to pay the annual storage fee? Or will they just keep storing them? Or maybe will they donate them to research or? So we really don't know what's going to happen with those increasing numbers of eggs that are now being put in storage? 

Olivia Moir  27:59   

Yeah. And I'm sure that that can't be cheap to keep your eggs in storage either. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  28:05   

Yeah, it's about 350 to 500 pounds a year at the moment. Probably will increase in the near future. I suspect. So you know, it's not. It's a consideration for sure. 

Olivia Moir  28:18   

Interesting. Yeah. I mean, okay, so we've we've talked, you know, sort of about who is doing it and and the motivations behind why they're doing it. But, you know, in previous podcasts where you have talked about egg freezing, you've kind of alluded to some concerns that you have in that space of egg freezing, particularly about sort of, as you've touched upon here, the marketing of the egg freezing and who is kind of being targeted with this. I mean, I'm I have to admit, like for sure I've thought about it not seriously or as you know, something that I'd be doing anytime soon. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  28:58   

How old are you, Olivia?  

Olivia Moir  28:59   

23. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  28:59   

23? 

Olivia Moir  28:59   

Yeah. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  29:00   

Are you getting Facebook ads, and Instagram ads for egg freezing? 

Olivia Moir  29:03   

I get ads I get, you know, in different social media kind of people talking about it, that they've gone through their experience with it. But also, like on TV and reality TV shows that I'm watching. It's something that I see people going through and talking about, it just kind of is like a constant chatter. Yeah, that's kind of background noise. And so it just similar to Botox is something that you feel as though Yeah, I guess I could do that. It's just it's sort of seeping its way in. And I'm like, well, actually, I don't know about that. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin  29:36   

Yeah, I mean, I find that disturbing. And you know, you are a 23 year old young woman who is more involved and interested in the science of women's health than most. So you can just imagine that for many young women, that constant chatter could actually become really concerning. especially if what they end up feeling is, oh, my goodness, my fertility is going to run out really quickly. And here's this perfect technology that offers a solution. And if I don't do something about that now, it will be my fault if I can't have children. I mean, that's a really, really problematic message to be sending to young women, I think. I think, certainly, early 20s is an inappropriate time to be targeting women for egg freezing or thinking about egg freezing. So there is the, the let's separate the kind of the scientific story from the social story. Scientifically speaking, we know that the younger a woman is, the better quality her eggs are. So at age 23, you have fabulous quality eggs, and they're only going to deteriorate in quality. However, there is no reason to assume at 23 that you will have any problems in having the family that you want later down the line. So if we have a situation, particularly that we're seeing in some places in the US have like aggressive advertising, saying, you know, this should be the present that you give to your daughter when she graduates University, etc. What that will mean is just 1000s upon 1000s upon 1000s of women needlessly going through a procedure that they will never need, and that will never offer them benefit. And that has some potential of risks, that it could actually, you know, damage their bodies in some ways, without the any possibility or an any need for offering benefits down the line. Yeah. So I do understand that, you know, particularly from medical perspective, younger eggs do better. So there might be an argument for, especially women who are going to who, no, who are going to want to have children later in life, who are going to want to leave having children into their late 30s or early 40s, there might be an argument for them to freeze their eggs in their late 20s, or, you know, when they're 30, or something like that, I can totally understand that. To think about it earlier than that, I think is just really exploiting young women, and just generating fears, generating unnecessary fears. And what we need to look at is who benefits from that? And it's not young women that benefit from having those increased fears, it's the companies that are selling it.  

Olivia Moir 32:30  

So important. Yeah, it's it's definitely something that we've been talking about more here. 

It's just sort of focusing on separating what you just said, sort of the social side of it from the science. Obviously, there's a space to incorporate into the education the science with the social, but there's also, you know, when it comes to marketing and different tactics that are based around, you know, generating some sort of income, so it's important when it comes to our health, really important to focus on why that's probably not in anyone's best interest as an individual. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin 32:06 

Exactly. And just, I think you know again as a sociologist and you know in the in the kind of sociology of Women's Health courses that I run here at UCL, some of the things that I really want my students to try and think about are, Who is saying what you know? If this is a message that you're hearing well, where is that message coming from and who benefits from that message being relayed in that way? And it's really important to try and think about those things, because they're not always super straightforward. So if there is a huge kind of advertising campaign for more and more young women to freeze their eggs, it's really important to just stop and think, OK, well, where are those messages coming from and who are they benefiting? And to just kind of be a little bit critical and analytical about how we process those messages. 

Olivia Moir 33:59  

Such good advice? Yeah, I think such good advice for egg freezing. But also, you know, as you said, anything relating particularly to Women's Health. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin 34:08  

Yeah. Because what we don't want at the end of the day are, you know, any technology in and of itself isn't necessarily good or bad. It could be used for good. It could be used for bad,  depending on how it's framed in society. So This is why we want the kinds of laws and the kind of ethical principles around things that mean that, you know, technologies provide benefit to society as opposed to harm. So I think that's kind of what we've got to be aware of. We don't want women to have ridiculous, unrealistic expectations and additional responsibilities and burdens placed on their shoulders, and we certainly don't want young women who are never going to benefit from it to feel like they have to freeze their eggs because it exists and they must do it. It's like, no, this technology exists, and it might be the right choice for some women, but that will really depend on particular circumstances. It's absolutely not something everybody needs to go out and do.  

Olivia Moir 35:06  

So true. I yeah. Really, really great. That's all I have to say. I'm kind of speechless, to be honest. I've learned so much from you. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin 35:16  

Oh, it’s been lovely talking to you.  

Olivia Moir 35:18  

Same to you. So I guess on that note, I look forward to seeing with your research, you know your different perspectives in this in this space going forwards, but it's been so great talking with you so. 

Dr. Zeynep Gurtin 35:33 

Thank you so much, Olivia.