Episode 07: Politics

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Episode Seven: Politics

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:13:18

Ayesha

Welcome to Campus Conversations, brought to you by UCL Student Success Team, your go to podcast for all things student life at University College London. This episode we're talking about politics. My name is Ayesha. I'm a final year history, politics and economics student.

00:00:13:20 - 00:00:17:13

Sophia

Hi, I'm Sophia, I'm a final year comparative literature student.

00:00:17:15 - 00:00:22:09

Inara

Hi, I'm in art. I'm also a HP student, but I'm in my second year.

You want to get started? Okay.

00:00:29:24 - 00:00:40:09

Sophia

With the growth of artificial learning models, will artificial intelligence make humans redundant or will it liberate people from mundane tasks and activities?

00:00:40:11 - 00:00:58:24

Ayesha

I think initially it started off as something that was quite great and something so useful and like we thought, well, from what I think anyways, I thought like it kind of came across as something that would make our lives easier. And to some extent I agree, but I think also it's made people a bit not useless but like you said, like a bit redundant. And I think now that ChatGPT and like other AIs are being used for everyday single tasks, that I think we shouldn't be using it false. And I think there's been kind of this I guess, loss of brain power a little bit because even now when I'm like writing like some essays or something, I have to physically tell myself not to use or like not to put everything or like ask ChatGPT anything. I need to actually use my brain and be like, okay, where can I go with this? You know? And I feel like even like replying to email sometimes. I know that people that attempted to just put everything into ChatGPT or whatever and just reply to emails, but it's like, no, oh, we should be replying to it ourselves and making grocery list ourselves, you know, like, and I, I agree to some extent when people say that it makes life easier, it does, but I think we're also becoming more useless in a way as well. But yeah. What do you guys think?

00:01:49:08 - 00:01:50:05

Inara

I draw the line at you emails, that's crazy. No, but yeah, household tasks, emails, things like that. But I don't think I would allow myself to use it for that. Just I mean, I get why people would and I know people that do, like, I have friends that I laugh about and I'm like, I can't believe you're using such empathy for a grocery shopping list. I just think in your head what you need in your fridge, you know?

Sophia

I’m a bit of a ChatGPT warrior myself. So I still use my brain, I still engage my brain, but I think, I don't think it makes humans redundant at all. I think what it does well is like automating, like repetitive tasks that don't need and like repetitive labour that like, doesn't need to be slaved over for hours and can be done obviously like in seconds by AI, but I think by automating that side of it, it kind of fosters or it can foster creativity in other elements.

00:03:05:09 - 00:03:05:21

Ayesha

That wasn't me outing myself as using checking emails and essays. I do write essays myself, especially this year. I feel like it's just I think too many AI's now are coming out. Personally for me. I think that is great. But like every week I'm hearing of something new. But it's like when, like, I rather have something that gets me home instantly, like a teleporting or something like then like what? I yeah, I like, where are the flying cars? Where the teleportation to get me like to avoid my 50 minute commute or. But no, I think it is fun. It is exciting, but to some extent it gets a bit ridiculous at some point because you know, you don't need of everyday mundane tasks. I don't think, I think like. A lot of people are worried about the jobs as well, because I think a lot of like corporate jobs as well, like lawyers, for example, they're incorporating into their work. And now there's this kind of fear that, well, if I can do all your contracts and stuff, what's the point of being a lawyer? You know, what's the point of going to law school, which I agree with.

00:04:07:06 - 00:04:27:04

Inara

I mean, I wouldn't want an AI lawyer because, I mean, because you're never going to have an AI judge. I mean, at least you hope that anyway. But for obvious reasons, you wouldn't want to like this. The basic professions like law, like finance, accounting, medicine and teaching. I think there's like a line to be drawn there.

00:04:27:06 - 00:04:48:13

Sophia

But I think it can be used as like a tool for those professions rather than replacing those professions. Like as long as someone's still there to check it. Because obviously AI does make mistakes, but I think as long as there's a human oversee it, I don't think it's like two problematic.

00:04:48:15 - 00:04:59:00

Ayesha

What do you guys think about AI in terms of like, I'm going back to court cases because I think it's interesting. Like if you're using it for like deciding the outcome of a court case, do you think it's more fair than human bias?

00:04:59:00 - 00:05:00:15

Sophia

Like, no, I think that's crazy.

00:05:00:15 - 00:05:20:14

Inara

I don't think it works. It's like the way that you interpret the law, like interpreting the law. That's why you go to law school. Because it's like a thing. Like it's a science to be able to interpret law and understand wordings. And there's like so much etymology in it as well, because like what a word means and looking at its origins can then define like how much the legislation covers it. That's why we have supreme courts like this, a body of people that, that have studied and practised the law for decades to sort of interpret it. And I think, like the nature of the constitution in the UK anyway, like we rely a lot on precedent instead of, you know, where it's like the US, for example, where they have a constitution, our Supreme Court sort of looking at what decisions were previously made and how to make similar decisions. So especially in our case at UK was no, I yeah.

00:05:52:14 - 00:05:56:15

Sophia

In one of the modules that I'm doing right now, like they have explicitly said to us, like you can use AI, but these are the things that you can use it for, and these are the things you can't and you can't use it for. Obviously, like ghost writing or like structures, but you can use it to like, come up with like recommend authors or texts about a certain topic or like by your understanding about a certain concept. And I think like that is why it should be used for you. I don't think that that's problematic personally.

Inara

Yeah, it depends like we're all from like sort of writing subjects. Right. So this is applicable but there are some essays where it's not useful. I don't use that tool because it's just not useful. Like I was doing a Time of Troubles essay, which was like really early version history and all of my books. I couldn't find them online like they were. I had to go to the library and get the physical copies, because there's no one writing a history of something that's like, it's quite it's generally agreed what happened? So even if I did ask I, which I didn't, I knew that I wouldn't even bother to attempt to. It wouldn't know just because the information isn't like digitised on the on the internet.

00:08:16:10 - 00:08:20:04

Ayesha

When it first came out in like when I was in first and second year, like I think. Like in my year, including me, became more reliant on it to explain concepts and like help with assignments, this and that. But then I think I realised how quickly it got things wrong as well, because like, it just doesn't like it doesn't have that depth that you have yourself when you're writing, for example, and when you're like actually discussing things and using your brain, it gets to your full capacity. And it just yeah, I think I agree with it. Like for helping you assist in certain things in explaining a topic or making something easier, but when you're asking it to like find something really basic like a Google search also does that, you know.

00:08:55:20 - 00:08:58:10

Inara

Like can you carry on talking and come back to me, please.

00:09:00:12 - 00:09:19:03

Ayesha

But like I think like using ChatGPT or the AI whatever to ask basic questions that you could Google or you could literally ask someone right in front of you. I think that's a bit ridiculous as well. What did you want to say about the basic searches in Google.

00:10:00:06 - 00:10:00:24

Inara

The environmental Impact it uses. So I try to like tell people there's something, by the way, don't use AI for something ridiculous like that. If it's like I mainly mean uses like job applications for part time jobs that are like freelance and they will ask you for like a ridiculous amount of, like, personal statements and stuff. And then it's like, you're not paying me enough. If it's like a proper internship, like relate to my career, obviously I don't use it, but for like anything like casual work, like, I don't know, like a shift worker or like agency. What kind of thing? I would be like. Oh, sure. Motivation of why you're interested in working as a barista. Like, you know, you're. It's casual it works. They don't care. But, But, yeah, the environmental impacts, it's like you should not be using it for anything that you don’t like…

00:10:46:20 - 00:11:15:03

Ayesha

I agree with that so much because I think I saw somewhere that it's like a user, so much electricity and water for like a single search. And I know like I was used as like an alternative. So like it reduces, I guess, the carbon impact of humans to some extent. But then like the usage of the, the electricity and what it uses to run these models and also like how you harvest the batteries, how you like, you know, just the whole like process of building these AI is looking ridiculous. And it does it seem ridiculous because it's all in line. It seems like it's something that's just instantly done.

Inara

The cloud is physical.

Ayesha

And I don't think people realise the climate impact of it.

00:11:25:08 - 00:11:43:08

Sophia

So yeah, I think people think of AI as like being an unlimited source. But I'm sure I read somewhere that like one AI search is the equivalent of pouring out a bottle of water. And I'm like, that's that's terrifying, because obviously people do use it like so for something. Yeah, like.

00:11:43:10 - 00:11:48:19

Ayesha

I thought it was like more than one. I thought it was a couple of tonnes of water that it's just like, yeah, it's the energy.

00:11:48:21 - 00:12:08:07

Inara

And of course the batteries. That reminds me of current cobalt mining crisis in like Central Africa now and how bad it is. And it's like, isn't it supposed to be renewable resource like, is this supposed to be sustainable? And you're like still using natural resources for it? So yeah. There you go. Yeah. There's so much that goes into it.

00:12:09:03 - 00:12:19:20

Ayesha

Yeah, that bothers me about like electric cars as well. Like I own something great and like it's better for the environment in terms of pollution. But like if people look at like how lithium batteries, for example, are like, mined and how they, Like they're not ethical and they're not exactly like…And to dispose these batteries, like all of, like Tesla's of, like all these, electric cars. It creates so much waste in the environment as well.

Ayesha

Okay. With protests going on across the world about the impacts of tourism on local communities, what are your views about travelling and how has this changed? How you view an approach going on holiday?

00:12:46:21 - 00:12:49:03

Inara

Barcelona, right?

00:12:49:11 - 00:12:50:17

Ayesha

I love Barcelona.

Inara

Yeah, I think, I think yeah I think it's a great city. I think like I understand like. I think I went this past summer and I think the week after I had just been it was the protest. Water pistoling tourists. And British tourists as well that they usually hate, which is which is a whole conversation in itself. But like. I don't know, like I feel like I am more, I guess, aware of when I'm trying to look for holidays. I'm kind of more aware of certain places. So for example, I think the way I see it is like if it's a country, I think it particularly affects, like indigenous communities. For example, Hawaii is is not a country, it's a state. But oh, like maybe like Indonesia, Bali, these kind of places. If you guys see me in these places afterwards.Mind your own business. I was like, was, we'll get into that. But, I, I'm a bit more conscious about that. I think, like if the local communities are telling you not to come to that country because it's destroying their environment, is destroying the ecosystems because, for example, like Hawaii, they rely on their natural resources. What's grown there, what's, like they rely on the land, essentially. And I think when all these tourists go in to destroy, like the natural harvest, their crops and stuff, I think that's bad. And I don't think… like that puts me off going to places like Hawaii, in Bali and Indonesia, for example. But at the same time, a part of me is like, I do still want to see the whole world, I do still want to see it. But like with respect to these communities and not destroying their natural resources. But, yeah, to what extent?

Inara

I guess there are ways to do it.

00:14:28:13 - 00:14:49:24

Sophia

I think that's the main thing like mindful tourism and like being respectful of local cultures and supporting local businesses when you're there and trying to do it in like the most sustainable way you can. 

00:20:38:15 - 00:21:03:09

Inara

Okay. Right. With meta brackets, Facebook taking away fact checking on their platform in the US started up should the UK government regulate social media platforms to prevent the spread of misinformation, or does that infringe upon free speech?

So what's the line between protecting. Yeah. What's the what's the line between spreading misinformation and free speech.

Ayesha

This is something I'm really interested in because it is quite to my dissertation topic. Yeah, it's fake news consumption in Europe. And well, obviously like recently, Mark Zuckerberg took away the fact checking thing on Facebook, which personally for me is terrifying because I think I understand the line of free speech and people being able to say certain things. But from what I see, like fake news and misinformation is so dangerous to like communities and misinformed people as well. So like if you are seeing these headlines where it has obviously physically like untrue information. So for example, the Covid 19 pandemic, there was so much fake news around and it genuinely scared people because this is all they knew. They didn't know any better. And it's not like any it's not their fault. It's no one's fault. But it's the fact that these companies aren't willing to fact check and aren't willing to provide accurate sources, for example, that is putting these people in danger.

So I think, I think that there should be fact checking. And I think in the UK they should be able to fact check because I don't think it infringes on people's rights, and rather it protects people's rights because I think by not fact checking your harming people more than anything. But I do understand why people say, oh, you're taking away our freedom of liberty, our freedom of speech, to say this and that.But, well, no, like, you're actually causing more harm than. But yeah, but what do you guys think? Some people I think are close to that.

Inara

But it's like telegram. So there was a tunnel for documentary on the telegram. And it talks about because of their lack of. But they, they sort of advertise sometimes it's like, yeah, like super encrypted. You know, we don't share your information with the government. One loophole with not showing information to the government is when they're investigating CSAM online or like, like abuse online bullying online, like, how do you, how do you regulate that if you won't cooperate with the authorities?

 So I definitely I'm on the side of that should be fact checking and the government should have some sort of, you know, some sort of way to be able to access accounts and things, especially if they're spreading misinformation and prosecute those people. Because you wouldn't say that in real life, like, if it was in real life and you'd be like, oh yeah, this person is like running some sort of drug ring in the house, but it's in the house we can't go in where it's like, you know, there's warrants and things like that. So I don't see why in the online space there wouldn't be warrants and there wouldn't be fact checking or any sort of, you know, fight against misinformation. But yeah.

00:23:37:01 - 00:23:59:12

Sophia

Yeah, I completely agree. Especially I think when it has like real world consequences. So when it's like like you said, with Covid 19, like it was about public health or like elections is like we can't afford to not have fact-checking like there needs to be some kind of government oversight. I don't think that infringes on free speech. It's not censorship.

00:24:01:03 - 00:24:01:23

Ayesha

No, definitely. But I think there's a fine line between that and censorship. So it depends on how I guess governments go about it. But I don't know. I think I saw it recently, I think I saw this tweet and I don't know how true it is because it's not been announced in like the news or anything, butI'm assuming that it has some kind of truth to it. But again, I don't know if it's fake news. It actually, but I saw this tweet and it says that the UK government has actually requested that, like Apple for example, has like a loophole in its encryption services so they can still investigate. Yeah. But like how did you guys feel about that from like a security perspective? Because I feel like I don't know, when I first saw that, I was a bit like, oh, like, you know, that that's a bit of a security concern. I don't want them to be reading all my WhatsApp messages, all this and that, not that I have anything to hide by the way. I don't know. But, just, you know, like. I thought it was a bit of a my initial response was, oh, that like kind of infringes your privacy. But then I kind of understood why as well.

Inara

It’s one of those weird things saying the political compass. That's one of the questions whether, the government being able to sort of investigate those things is an infringement on your like, civil liberties or not. And again, only wrongdoers need to be worried about that. I think.

Sophia

Yeah. I'm way too like flippant with my cyber security I guess.

Ayesha

I feel like with all these apps and stuff that we download, we sign away. So many like rights as well because no one reads the terms and conditions you don't like. I think that's the whole like it's a bit silly in my, in my opinion, but the whole argument about the USA banning TikTok, I think it's more like about trade and like international affairs rather than actual like the security concerns. But I think that's what they try to portray the argument as. It's like, oh, it's, infringing our privacy. They're selling all our data, and no one actually knows where the data's going, because everyone just agrees to the terms and conditions.

Sophia

Did see the notification on TikTok, like thank you President Trump?!

00:26:02:16 - 00:26:03:08

Ayesha

Like two of my American flatmates in my flat. And one they were literally like devastated when TikTok went down. And then like. Because she had still had it download a phone, she saw it as it came back and it was like this massive screen of like, thank you, President Trump for saving Tik Tok, this and that. And it was such like, I think that's like that to me is fake news that that is such misinformation. Like that's crazy. Yeah.

00:26:30:10 - 00:26:33:21

Inara

He was at his inauguration.

00:26:36:02 - 00:26:38:09

Ayesha

I mean, it was well, it was like a room of billionaires or something.

Inara

Yeah. All of them.

Ayesha

I mean, they were harassing the poor guy, but like not poor guy. I mean, yeah they were harassing the really rich guy.

Inara

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, stay woke.

Ayesha

I don't know, like, what you're even supposed to do in these situations.

Inara

That's the thing. There's no such thing. I literally had an argument with my mum yesterday because she put my picture into it. This is so off topic. She put my picture into an AI emoji generator and I was like, I've not consented to that. Like, do you know what they're going to do with my pictures? She was like, no, no, no, it's just on my phone. And I'm like, your phone is an illusion. If you haven't paid for the app, then you're paying with something else. You're paying with your data, you're paying. So now, like I'm on some AI database somewhere because she's downloaded a dodgy app that she has recommended from TikTok, and I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, yeah, but nothing is free. Like if you're if you're not paying for an app, then you're you are paying in another way your data. So I know that every time I go to Instagram I'm paying by them knowing, oh, what's the average like 21 year old girl looking at? And and it's you know, I mean you know that. But it's better to know and then choose to do that. So I know I'm choosing to do that than to be in the opposite situation where you're like, oh, and, you know, selling my data about TikTok.

Ayesha

I actually think, like going back to fact checking, I think they should be fact checking, probably because like my, my mum and dad are so susceptible to like. My mum and dad recently got TikTok. So my mum will constantly send me these TikTok. So like like links and stuff, just like, oh, should I get this? Look at this. Oh, like, you should do this and like, stop, please. Like this. You're going to get like scammed out of like thousands of pounds at some point if you keep like. And I have to keep telling my parents, my dad will tell me this like new story. Again. Sorry if you are watching this I don't I don't he will. But yeah, he's like, he'll be like, oh, did you hear this happen? I was like, I really don't think it did. Like, that sounds ridiculous. And he's like, no. No, it sounds right here on like some fake news. He's like, oh, like you didn't. Yeah. I think fact checking should be done specifically for our parents. And like Yeah, you know, where do you draw the line?

00:28:52:22 - 00:28:54:03

Inara

I tell you, I didn't want to.

00:28:54:05 - 00:28:57:08

Ayesha

Know that I would.

00:28:57:10 - 00:29:30:12

Inara

That that signals to me. And I maybe, maybe it's hard to wrap this into your conversation without my presence, but I'm going to go there anyways. That signals to me, our parents generation have a lot more trust in the media just by like it popped up on this thing, so I trust it. In the world of TikTok, fake news and misinformation, thinking about that slant of trust, how is that influenced you guys and sort of a wider community that's majority young people at UCL.

00:29:30:12 - 00:29:48:15

Inara

It's like, do you find people of the same where they'll trust anything they see on TikTok? And is that a problem, or do people not even trust the BBC anymore? Like, you know, it's kind of like this whole fake news thing. Where does people's trust in the media within your community kind of see you see, how do you see it affecting?

00:30:23:05 - 00:30:43:23

Ayesha

Sense, a lot of people like trust the media quite a bit in that sense. And I don't know, for to most extent I feel like I trust it as well. I'm like, yeah, you know, that's right. This sounds accurate. If I see a TikTok video about it. But then I think, like when I've, when I'm having wider conversations with people, I'm like, is that actually true though?

00:30:43:23 - 00:31:03:22

Ayesha

And sometimes I wonder, like, do I like sometimes I'm wondering if people are trusting like Tik Tok more than like BBC news, for example. And it's like, but then the whole, I guess, privacy rights and stuff, I'm like, can you even trust the news at this point? And like, who do you trust? But yeah, who do you do you guys trust.

00:31:03:24 - 00:31:07:06

Inara

From multiple sources? The more the better. I think I've also already mentioned this on like an episode before, but I use Ground News. The app where like it tells you, it shows you all the news articles, but it just tells you what that article, what the writer means. So. So they'll be like, oh yeah, this is from and they'll tell you how much coverage something has gotten. So an issue might have only gotten like 90% right coverage and then 10% centre coverage. So no left coverage on a certain like news story. Or it will tell you whether this news outlet is left before you're reading it or whether this news is right. I'm sure there's maybe even problems within the app itself. But like in general, it's quite a good guide. So you can read it, I think are you can read anything really, but just critical analysis. But you use critical analysis in like your degree. So, so for those that don't I don't know, I'd be interested too. But I think it's natural to us to like critically analyse anything that you read anyway.

Sophia

Okay. With global protests such as Black Lives Matter, meta. And the Israel-Palestine conflict is happening in recent years, to what extent do you think grassroots protest and activism brings about change?

Definitely. Yeah. I start out especially in like, shifting public opinion and raising awareness, for sure.

Ayesha

I think I think protests need to happen and maybe as like a politics student you probably agree. But I think like they shaped so many things. So I think especially like the Black Lives Matter protests in 2020 that shaped like not only history in a way, but how, I guess, like we went on about things as well, and I think it's shaped so many, diversity laws, for example.

 And it's shaped like how people act in the workplace, for example, and shaped just how we see, like justice in general. But yeah, no, I think protests are so necessary, both for like I think some people say that they're always a bit redundant because they don't actually like it's always up to the politicians and up to people in government what actually happens. But I think, no, like if there are these mass demonstrations that show that people are against whatever's happening, like it definitely has an impact because it shows that. I think also in the long run, it's not great for like governments as well, because it shows that that you have so much opposition against you and that people are becoming aware of what you're trying to hide or suppress for example. And I think, like, I think it's just so necessary to protest, even if you don't think it's going to get you anywhere. Like especially I think a lot of people thought it's like even now with the Israel-Palestine protest, people think, oh, like these protests are redundant, like it's not even in this country that's happening. It's not going to like affect us. It does. Like if you like, like a stand up, or a able to stand up to how you feel about things, it definitely shows across the world. I mean, there were demonstrations in every single country about it.

Inara

Yeah. I mean, like on the Black Lives Matter one, there was I think it was a 2021 the commission on like investigating, systemic racism in the UK, which was, that was a funny ending because the minister that they got on it, the Tory minister, Kemi Badenoch, she's a black woman. She's now the leader. I'm sure you know, the leader of the Conservative Party now, she was the minister for the equalities right, Minister for equalities, something like that. And she was like very much pushing and you would see it in the debates as well. She was like, there's no evidence of systemic racism in the UK. I'm like, that's crazy. Because like they they get you of all people like you, not. That's why that's the question of representation as well. Sometimes it's not always the best thing. Perhaps the person that has more empathy towards is better. I do totally agree that protests do have.. But I do want to play. I do want to play devil's advocate thing here and say, do you think they can go too far? And have you seen examples of it?

Sophia

As long as they're not violent, as long as the peaceful protest, I don't think they can go too far.

Ayesha

I don't think they go too far just because I'm I do believe in protest, but I think the example people use is maybe the Extinction Rebellion ones, because they could disrupt a protest and they get in the way of people. So I think people say that by like standing in front of like, that's the motorway and stuff that's going too far and like throwing oil paint, like paintings and stuff.

Inara

Okay. Right. With the world's richest man, Elon Musk, and being instrumental in recent US elections as being a billionaire. Inherently unethical and corrupt. Should there be a cap on how much money one can accumulate? Or does this impinge on human freedom to capitalise and innovate?

Ayesha

I don't think a billionaire should exist.

01:01:30:06 - 01:01:30:14

Inara

Yeah.

01:01:30:15 - 01:01:43:11

Ayesha

No, I'm sorry but a billion. I don't think you understand how big 1 billion dollars is? Or pounds. But a billion is never ethical in any sort of circumstance for me anyways, apologies if someone is a billionaire watching this, I guess. I don't think you're ethical, but the thing is, I my problem with $1 billion is, first of all, people don't realise how much money that is is several hundred million. And even then, it's not even that. It's more than that. The thing is, the on the way of accumulating 1 billion dollars, you must have had some kind of unethical like circumstances, whether that was supply chain, whether that was like slave labour, for example, or whether that was like whatever it was or there was some kind of exploitation on, on the way for you to get a billion dollars. I cannot think of a single like a way that was completely ethical. But I guess that's with all transactions and all money as well. But like, just because like how capitalism works, like not no part of is fully ethical. But I don't think having that amount of money, like accumulating that amount of wealth isn't ethical, but also I don't think owning that amount of money is ethical either, because you have so much money that like 1 billion dollars and like even more than a billion, you like even a small if you donated like a small proportion of that amount to like world problems, you could solve so many worldly problems that you could solve so much poverty, you could solve like water problems, sanitation, food problems, and the fact that like these billionaires don't, I guess, contribute because they could like, give away so much money and still be so wealthy, still be billionaires, and they choose not to, and they instead choose to continue to be wealthier while like the bottom, like 0.5% get, get poorer or like the bottom 10%, I guess poorer, and the top 10% get richer. You know, I don't think that's fair as well. Yeah. Where you get support.

Sophia

Would you then like, set a cap on how much money you can accumulate? If you think.

Inara

Think it's quite simple; tax.

01:03:34:15 - 01:03:47:06

Sophia

Yeah, yeah I agree like like strong progressive tax but like you can't it would be very difficult to be like you can't be a billionaire.

Inara

I think they I think in general the government wants us to see like that. But it is very easy to cap corporations. I just think that they choose. And the thing is, is also like if you cap corporations, then you're pushing them out of your country. So like Ireland would like the zero corporation tax and then like loads of people set up there. So where is the limit. Like it's difficult because say oh yeah right. It is a simple solution. Tax them. But also they can just get up and leave. So where's the balance there.

01:04:15:19 - 01:04:34:22

Ayesha

Yeah I think there's so many loopholes as well. I think especially with like windfall taxes and stuff. And also I think like if you're not gonna I guess if you're not going to pay tax in one country, the way people get out of paying tax is by setting up in a tax free country, for example. So like Monaco, Dubai, mainly tax free countries, if you have like a certain amount of money. So people just set up though and but I mean going back to the billion comment I think like the argument of, oh like it stops innovation and stops it. I don't think it does because there's so much money that these people already have that I think just getting richer doesn't do anything. You're just getting even more unethical, I guess, in that sense.

But also one kind of way, I kind of wanted to talk about it. And I don't know how you guys feel about it, but when people defend certain people for being billionaires, but others not. So, for example, if there's a certain pop artist that is a billionaire, do I think people receive that differently to how people receive, like Jeff Bass, also Mark Zuckerberg, for example. But how do you guys feel about that?

Inara

Are we talking about Taylor Swift?

Sophia

I was going to say that I think Taylor Swift comes under fire more thank like a lot of the more like political figures who are billionaires.

Inara

She's a woman.

Ayesha

So the conversations I've had with friends, it's like the always got, oh my God, 1 billion dollars is not ethical. This is a lot. But then the oh my God, at the same time this is like duality. And they're like, oh congratulations to Tesla for becoming the first billionaire.

And I'm just like you. Do you realise the ridiculousness of that? Right. Like just because like she earned through concerts and like whatever she's earned through doesn't make it more ethical because there were still some supply chain issues. There still must have been like, she must have like, you have to, like, underpay your workers. And like, I mean, I don't know if there's an ethical way to become a billionaire. Let me know, I guess. But like, oh, go on to that. I don't think there is. And even with Taylor Swift, like it's like charging such ridiculous amounts for concerts, like you should not be charging so much money for concerts. I'm sorry. And I, I was having this conversation with my friend earlier at lunch, and because we were discussing like some other topics and I was like, well, do you?

 Because she said, yeah, $1 billion is unethical. And I said, but do you agree in terms of Taylor Swift and she said, actually, I do that. It's unethical. But also I don't know if you guys saw…Sorry I'm going on a tangent about this because it really bothers me how like people defend certain people and how people don't… Anyways, but she said that how like for example, she tells with sold restricted view tickets, concert tickets for people to not even see the concert. It was just to listen to it.

Sophia

But people want that though.

Ayesha

But I think that’s ridiculous

Sophia

But take that up with her fans

Ayesha

I know, but I think in some sense that's exploitation as well a little bit because like you're charging people at that point, just like it'd be free if you're not letting them see the stage. They're not they can't see you. They can't see your dancer, they can't see anything you're charging them money to listen to a YouTube video.

Sophia

But if you release more tickets for a Taylor Swift concert, people will want to go, oh, yeah.

01:07:39:07 - 01:07:46:24

Ayesha

I just don't agree with the obstructed view. You know, I don't believe in charging people for not saying anything. You might as well stand outside Wembley Stadium in an area you know.

Sophia

I also think like the excessive media coverage about Taylor Swift specifically being a billionaire is just part of like a misogynistic hate train

Ayesha

100%, yes.

Sophia

But like so like probably maybe with the exception of like, Elon Musk, I think she's probably the billionaire that comes under fire the most in the media.

Ayesha

Yeah, I think it's just because she's, she's just so publicly like…

Sophia

But so are like Beyonce, so is Travis Scott. But no one…

Ayesha

I don't think any billionaire is ethical. I do like some of Taylor Swift’s music. I do like some of Beyonce's music. Like that's not me saying I hate them like to the core or anything.

Sophia

I’ve just had so many conversations with so many people who are like, despise Taylor Swift because she's a billionaire. But you don't despise Beyoncé?

Ayesha

I still like Taylor Swift

Sophia

I get a bit passionate!

Ayesha

This is just going to like stop me getting into like all these major like banks. So they're just going to go like shut me up. I don't think anyone. Absolutely not. But I think there should be progressive tax and the more you earn, the more it should give back to society, for example. And like I think that's part of the reason the NHS is crumbling is because no one like they're avoiding paying these tax payments that they should be paying, but like putting it off as like offshore payments, for example, like. You know, I mean like all.

 And I think just like regular people we give taxes. Like obviously there was a big like outcry about regular, I keep saying regular people, but the average person's income tax going towards the king's coronation, for example, there was a lot of like outburst about that because we were saying, why are we why are we funding like him having a gold carriage, for example, when, there's people that aren't able to turn the heating on in the winter, those people that can't afford their groceries, they can't feed like their children. So I think there's this massive like district inequality of wealth. But what did you want to say about the NHS?

01:15:37:15 - 01:15:56:13

Inara

Oh yeah, this is a UCL specific question now because we have so many medics. I wish we had a medic here with us. But what's your opinion on, because we're talking about giving back financially, but what about like time wise and resources wise? If you're a medical student, do you agree with what the, I mean, the talks about stopping them from being able to just go to Australia?

01:15:56:15 - 01:15:58:02

Sophia

Wait, I haven't heard about this.

01:15:58:02 - 01:16:23:08

Inara

So, like a lot of medics here move over because of course like the NHS and you said, but that wasn't the problem if people leave, right? And of course it is partly, I mean if you've got like a bursary and you also did student finance, so that was taxpayer funded, so do you think it's okay for someone who has had their entire, say, residency, funded by the NHS to then move to Australia and become a doctor there?

01:16:23:10 - 01:16:41:13

Ayesha

The thing is, I have quite a few medic friends. I kind of understand. I have had this conversation where people have been wanting to move abroad, but the reason they want to move abroad is because the conditions in the UK aren't great, it’s because they're not paying, like these, these medic students have gone through like six years of medical school and then two years of further training. Then you have to go into further specialisation and you don't earn a decent living wage, like you're earning, I think I saw like recently that people are like Pret baristas were earning more than junior doctors were, and when you consider that, like, obviously it's great for Pret baristas but if you've gone through so many years of education, it's so much hard work because obviously I understand it's like government funded and stuff, but if you've gone through such long education, such intensive training and stuff to then not even be, I guess, rewarded and not even have the supplies properly to like be a proper doctor in the NHS or not be supported properly. I think like people, that's that's the problem. Like people are incentivised to leave and go to where there's better conditions, better working rights, for example, and better labour commitments as well. And in terms of whether I think like should people be stopped from leaving? Well, I think, maybe I don't think, I understand that people shouldn't people shouldn't be stopped to leave because it helps keep the resources for the NHS, but at the same time, there's no point keeping people if you aren't willing to fund the NHS itself, if you aren't willing to fund resources, if you aren't willing to fund like the supplies and like, your stuff properly, then there's no point in like stopping people from leaving because you're just creating this, like, circular, cycle of like, bad working conditions and then people leaving, you know? So that's how I feel about it.

01:18:07:03 - 01:18:24:02

Inara

I mean, I will ask you this question Sophie, but like, for both of you again in that was like a specific case, right, with medic. So we were just saying like billionaires and we agreed that they should contribute back to society. But what about people then? So if we just expand it out to like all the professions that university might come up with. So, do you think that people that are becoming sort of accountants, lawyers, if you get specifically if you get your degree funded by the UK government? I know that we have a student loan system, so you are technically paying it back, but it is you. A lot of people don't end up paying it back, so it is very much government funded or if you have a bursary do think you now have a responsibility to the society of taxpayers that essentially paid for your degree. So that applies if you got sort of funding for your government funding for your degree. Because we've just said billionaires should. So.

01:19:08:06 - 01:19:28:05

Ayesha

I think, you should I guess give back to society. In the UK how it works is you, you naturally do anyways with your income. Like it's not even something that you really think about because it gets taken out of your income anyways.

01:19:28:06 - 01:19:28:22

Speaker 4

Yeah.

01:19:28:24 - 01:19:41:12

Ayesha

And I think that like I think everyone should contribute towards like society but in a progressive way. So like in comparison to how much you earn, it should be like how much you contribute.

01:19:42:03 - 01:19:53:11

Sophia

Yeah. I think also it's not really an obvious problem of like a massive migration of lawyers and accountants out of the UK with the same way that it is in the medical industry.

01:19:53:13 - 01:19:55:07

Ayesha

Kind of back to like, student loans. I just had a question, I've heard some people say that they don't want to apply for higher paying jobs because they don’t want to pay their student loans back.

Inara

So that’s like tax though. People do that with the 40k thing, right? It’s like, I can’t remember, but it’s somewhere like between 40/45 where like they’re just like, no, I’ll stay in the lower paying job so that I don’t get the the tax above, but when you calculate it all, like there’s the income tax calculator, the government free one, and the student loan repayments, especially if you’re on our plan, because we’re the last year, right? So 30 years, 30 years it gets forgiven. So, I mean, but also the interest is a bit lower for ours, so I mean, so for the people who are on the other plan, I think I still count as the old plan because I did, I was at UCL before, like in my first year but doing something else, thankfully, but yeah for the people in that plan. I mean student loan deductions are not as crazy as the, you know, people that, oh, I don't want to get a student loan. It's like a debt. That's like saying you don't want to buy a house. Like, you know, it's good, that sort of thing. And it doesn't, like, sort of affect your credit score in a way that getting a car that you can't afford would. So I'm not. It's up to you now, but yeah.

01:22:03:03 - 01:22:11:09

Sophia

I was just thinking when you think about, like, value for, like, how much we’re paying. It's kind of. Oh yeah. Kind of absurd, really.

 01:22:15:08 - 01:22:17:15

Inara

That's another one. Do you think your degree.

01:22:17:17 - 01:22:19:10

Ayesha

We had this conversation last week, a little bit. We talked about, do you think I like, paying for university is worth it? But..

Sophia

I think it varies so much from coast to coast and like basically all of my course materials I would very easily be able to access, not UCL.

Ayesha

What I said, I think university, I think I oh, education should be free like it is like Scotland. And Germany has kind of said this before in other episodes. But do you think like going back to the taxpayer and the billionaire comment, do you think like using taxpayers money? All education should be free.

Inara

Yeah, education is free to 18. I don't see why. And I mean obviously you have to pay admin fees. But in most of Europe and here it was free for a long time. So like our yeah our parents sort of went for free. So I don't know why it's not. And the Liberal Democrats were like, yeah, I'm going to bring it back. They didn't. But yeah.

Oh, okay. So like okay. Right. Bringing it back to the billionaire question. If you were a billionaire, do you think that you would bring give back to your community, do you philanthropic work? Do you think that would be a big part of your business? Do I mean, Bill Gates Foundation? But, yeah, I.

Sophia

Think it would be very hypocritical for us to sit here and say all this. And then say no. But yeah, without a doubt, because nobody needs that much money. And I certainly don't need that much money 100%.

Ayesha

I think, like, I would always like if I had that much money, I think I'd try and solve like, well, problems or something. Like trust that I'd try and solve the like water crisis in countries. 100% I would I don't think like even for myself, even selfishly, I don't think I need that much money.

Sophia

Agree, I think a billion is just more than you could ever possibly need.

Inara

I probably would be doing it out of also feeling bad and wanting to feel good about myself. As well as like moral obligation. So there are like people who are religious and also billionaires, and part of their religion is they have to give a certain amount of a certain percentage of their yearly makings to charity. So it depends on what your moral compass is guided by as well. Yeah. Like personally, I feel like you have to give back in some way. If you can't give back financially, get back in time or whatever else is. So yeah.

Ayesha

Thanks for tuning in to Compass Conversations. We hope you had as much fun as listening as we did chatting. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to like and follow us on our social media and podcast streaming platforms. Linked in the bio. If you've got a story or a question or topic you'd like us to cover, the link is in the description. Until next time on campus conversations.