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SPEAKERS
Monica Lakhanpaul, Priti Parikh, Jhenelle Williams
Monica Lakhanpaul
Hello, and welcome to part two of episode three of Unlocking the SDGs, a blueprint for the future, a podcast from the UCL Sustainable Development Goals initiative. I'm Professor Monica Lakanpaul,
Priti Parikh
and I'm Dr. Priti Parikh.
Monica Lakhanpaul
So today we're joined by an amazing UCL master student, and also a cop 26 Jamaican delegate Jhenelle Williams. Jhenelle focuses on nuclear techniques to understand the coastal environment, supporting Jamaica's efforts to achieve the SDGs. So welcome, Jahnelle, to you, and really delighted to have you with us. Can you just start by telling us a little bit more about your background, and what your area of research really involves?
Jhenelle Williams
Hi Monica, thank you so much for having me. Yes, my name is Jhenelle Williams, and I am a climate change master's student here at UCL. Incidentally, my background was in engineering, specifically ocean engineering, where I kind of focused on looking at how we could capture wave energy from systems to generate energy, that career plans sort of, you know, evolved into more of investigative role, where I've been utilising nuclear techniques to study the environment, specifically, the coastal environment. As you mentioned, now that I'm doing my master's in climate change, I'm looking forward to applying nuclear and isotopic techniques to really, you know, delve into understanding how climate change is affecting these ecosystems that we much would like to protect,
Monica Lakhanpaul
I'd like to ask you really about how you think the SDGs are perceived in your home country? Do you think they're really well known in Jamaica and the Caribbean more broadly,
Jhenelle Williams
I believe so even more so in recent times, when you think about our professor Michael Taylor, which led the charge for 1.5 to stay alive, that really resonated in Jamaica, and even more so in the Caribbean, because it kind of puts into perspective, how climate change on our hold was being affected in our region. And I think that really stuck. Secondly, we developed what was known as vision 2030, which a lot of Jamaicans are aware of. I think the disconnect comes when trying to understand development, as well as addressing climate change. I think that is more of the separation more so than being aware of what is going on with the SDGs.
Priti Parikh
Jhenelle, it's always a pleasure to speak with fellow engineers. And you mentioned how SDGs are perceived in your home country. How do the SDGs inspire you in your area of research at UCL
Jhenelle Williams
pursuing climate change at UCL was important for me, because when I've heard about, you know, climate change, and how it's going to impact us globally, a lot of the conversation was being had in developed much larger countries. And while climate change is a global aspect, the Caribbean region stands to be affected in a in a way that many countries and many regions may not face. And when you think about our natural resources being the part that actually helps us to develop, but also the part that's going to be hit the most with climate change, we have to address things in a slightly different way and a more urgent way. So I pursued this degree thinking that I was gonna be able to, you know, lend a more impactful hand with research in my country wanted to really understand how things are going to affect our country, as well as how we can help to address things from a mitigation aspect and adaptation aspects and kind of put the region on a global map in terms of how we address this situation,
Priti Parikh
generally make a very interesting point on how develop and developing nations are in very different pathways to address the sustainable development goals, and climate action and how different parts of the world will have different challenges to tackle.
Jhenelle Williams
Definitely, I mean, you have 17 SDGs. And each country, each region will will choose to address them at different rates at different scales. And we have to probably address them in a slightly different way from other countries. So we have to think about our coastlines, or coral reefs are something that we have to protect. So it's a it's a nice dynamic that has to be considered. But to play the part you have to kind of understand what's going on in your own country and region to begin with.
Monica Lakhanpaul
I think that's so important what you're saying there and it's something we've picked on before really about what is happening in local areas, what's local context about what's happening, and and really engaging in partnership with the citizens who live within that local context as well. We don't really shouldn't be parachuting in from the outside and trying to make change in other countries. We really have to listen and I think you know, this is a real good example of that listen to what people are saying about their own context within which they're living in their own landscapes which they're living, and then work in partnership with them to really try and bring about change and give a voice to the individuals, which is why it's so great to have you here with us today. So just wanted to pick up on that a little bit more. So we know that small island developing countries like Jamaica, are more vulnerable to the effects of climate change. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? How are they more vulnerable, and are the SDGs really helpful in addressing these issues.
Jhenelle Williams
So for the region, one of our biggest challenges is looking at how it's affecting biodiversity because as I mentioned earlier, it is the cornerstone for a big part of our GDP, when one thinks of Jamaica or the Caribbean, you think about, you know, nice tropical beaches you're coming for, or environment incidentally. And so if climate change, ruins that, or causes damage to sea level rise, you know, increased tropical storms for which we cannot, you know, recoup, then it becomes a problem, then we don't have tourism, we don't have a good fishing industry, we're unable to export our products at the scale we've been able to. And so we're hit from an environmental standpoint, as well as an economic one. But the SDGs, while they are numerous, I think they give a baseline for what we need to be looking at. It's my understanding, it's not supposed to be exhaustive. But it's supposed to almost provide a template of the things that we're supposed to be considering as we're moving towards a more sustainable and more balanced environment. And so while it's not exhaustive, each country takes that template and adapts it to its own needs. When you think about, let's say, the climate action, it outlines some of the goals that needs to be addressed. But a lot of it ties into even the Life below Water SDG goal as well. And then if you look at our country's vision 2030 It takes that template and it refines it to the needs for our country. So I don't think there's an issue with the SDGs themselves. But I think they need to work in tandem with a country's national adaptation plan or their version of a vision 2030 plan or 2050 plan to move forward.
Monica Lakhanpaul
And it's interesting what you said about tourism, isn't it? It's like this. It's a double edged sword. Really, tourism is very important. And it's sometimes a bedrock of the economy, because you want to attract people to enable people to have jobs and to have the economy moving. But on the other hand, I suppose having people coming in can also damage the landscape as well. So it's that you know, you want tourism, but you also want the tourists to be respectable tourists and respect to your landscape and your country to which they're coming as well.
Jhenelle Williams
Absolutely. And it's possible. I mean, we've seen some semblance of responsible, sustainable, equal tourism happening in countries like Costa Rica. While it's not perfect, we do see where it is possible to have a balanced approach.
Priti Parikh
Jhenelle, you were a delegate at COP 26 in Glasgow, which we attended together, you are very modest, and you're not going to say it so I'll have to say it for you. So Jahnelle not only spent days and nights supporting the Jamaican delegation in her spare time, she also volunteered to play in a charity soccer match to raise awareness about climate change.
Jhenelle Williams
(laughs) Yes, it actually was a very good experience. It was my very first cup. And I felt honoured to be a part of the Jamaica delegation as a part of the youth arm. So yes, it was a very fun experience, as well as to do something fun, like play football, which I haven't done in years to help to raise awareness for climate change. So that was a fun experience.
Priti Parikh
And COP, what was the most surprising thing that you learned about the SDGs? From your experience there?
Jhenelle Williams
You know, incidentally, the most surprising thing was kind of seeing how science and politics go out play. I think that whole experience kind of opened my eyes to see how evidence can be presented, the facts can be there. But then there's the negotiations and the play with words and the play with trying to figure out what's the best what's not best, and countries and regions debating how to address something that what I thought we all agreed, was a problem. So I think it kind of gave me a sense of appreciation for what ministers in environment and politicians go through at these conferences, but it was definitely eye opening. It's not as clear cut as you would like to be.
Priti Parikh
And Jhenelle, I mean, in those discussions that you had with very important stakeholders, do you think the SDGs are covered as extensively as they should be?
Jhenelle Williams
No, of course not. I mean, there's definitely more that could be done. Definitely more that could be said. I mean, when you think about one of the things that the or region is fighting for, like loss and damage. Most of the conversations have always happened around mitigation and adaptation, but you're considering Something that only certain regions are suffering from, it's hard to bring that into a global conversation. Unfortunately, the SDGs is set in a global mindset and doesn't necessarily take into consideration nuances from different regions. And I think in that way, it can be limiting.
Priti Parikh
Absolutely Jhenelle. And earlier, we were speaking with Mark and Ilan, who were also commenting on the lack of understanding of local drivers needs.
Jhenelle Williams
Yes. And they're right with that. But it also is difficult the drivers and the needs for different regions and different countries change. Even within the Caribbean, we have sub regional dynamics that happen with our environment, how we're affected, while we do have similarities, how things change very, and the region is that big. So when you think about that, even on a global scale, it's hard to put that into an SDG framework, which is why I think that other things like the national adaptation plans, or even how we have these conversations at conferences, like cop need to not be set in stone one needs to consider, okay, this is just a template. How does that fit in here? How does that fit in here? And funding organisations need to consider that as well.
Monica Lakhanpaul
So Jhenelle, you're one of our students, our master students at UCL. And we're always excited to hear from you about your work. So you've been wonderful at giving your perspective on the SDGs. But actually, I'd like to really drill you down to can you tell us a little bit about your work, what you do what you've been doing? You mentioned the wind, you mentioned a nuclear techniques. Could you just take me through that a little bit in and really share with us about your own work that you've been doing?
Jhenelle Williams
So prior to coming to UCL, I worked at the International Centre for environmental and nuclear sciences. Quite a mouthful, basically is the only nuclear facility in Jamaica, where we apply nuclear techniques to study a myriad of parameters. And my focus was on environment, specifically, Marine and Atmospheric. So some of the work that I've been doing is looking at how Sargassum had been affecting or coastlines. People were considering using it for value added resources. What's the makeup of the sargassum? Is it possible to be used for food, so kind of taking a problem and using it for solution. I've also been using nuclear techniques to study pollutant dynamics, especially in the Kingston harbour and discovery be we're trying to increase or MPAs across the island, but having a baseline understanding of what the pollutants are the potential sources of those pollutants and how we can feed that into policy, and get things to be changed, especially as we are trying to mitigate things. So that's where my analysis have been focused. We're currently working on a four year urban atmospheric study, again, using nuclear techniques to study how pollutants have been moving through the air. And in coastal environments. It's a myriad of things. Unfortunately, that's how things are in the Caribbean, there's a small group of people to work on a lot of projects. But it's interesting because it helps us to gather data points, something that the UK is very fun to to have. You guys have a lot of research facilities, lots of data stemming from decades. So you can see where things changed how things changed. And I think that's what we're trying to do in the Caribbean and what our research facility has been trying to do as well.
Monica Lakhanpaul
That's fantastic. And yes, we do like data, I'm afraid numbers, numbers, numbers is how it goes. Sometimes it can be a lot of numbers to think through. But you know, you really talked about, you know, small number of people to do a lot of projects, you know, having that energy and excitement and passion really is I missing what drives you really, to really what you said, move from problems to solutions. And pollution is one of those key areas that we all really need to think about a lot more because it affects our bodies, our health. And our well being really, I don't think we really talk about it enough. So just to pick up on something you did say a little bit earlier about ecotourism in Costa Rica, have you learned any lessons from other countries really, that you could share with us?
Jhenelle Williams
I know that a huge part of ecotourism is getting buy in from local communities. One of the things that Costa Rica was able to do is kind of get the population to be educated to be aware of the value of their environment, so much so that they're willing and able to protect it, when you enable them and they have buy in, when tourists come they're able to not only allow them to explore the country, but they're also able to pass on that knowledge and perhaps encourage tourists to also, you know, value and protect their environment as well. I think in Jamaica, that's one of the disconnects. Sometimes we're focused on development into we're focused on trying to get as much out of something as possible. And so that's sometimes to the detriment of our coastal resources. When we think about wanting to protect mangroves, for instance, we have government funding going into protecting our mangroves. But on the flip side, we're also, you know, granting permissions for acres of mangroves to be destroyed to build another hotel. So, the scales don't always balance. And I think sometimes while we want to move towards development, sometimes we have to think about things more long term. Those lessons, I think, what we need to probably pick up more on.
Monica Lakhanpaul
COVID has taught us something, hasn't it, we should learn from each other, and we should learn across the world. And I think sometimes we have to be very humble as well and think, Well, what is somebody else doing better than us? And how can we use that information to improve what we're doing within our own regions within our own areas. And I particularly am really interested in this bidirectional knowledge exchange or knowledge, global knowledge exchange. And you know, maybe we have to think about how to harness that a bit more effectively than we currently are doing. And just moving on from that is, you know, young people, young people are really the source of advocacy, the source of I call it the noise, the source of making a difference in the world. And some particular topics really resonate more with young people probably than they do with others. Such as you know, we've talked about pollution, but particularly plastic pollution, you'll see lots of pictures about plastic pollution and young people thinking about what can they do. And I've seen some wonderful pieces of art, actually, where they've used plastic bottles to create art, artefacts, to really have that dialogue with the world about the problem with pollution, but climate seems to receive the most attention amongst youth activists. Why do you actually think that's so?
Jhenelle Williams
I think incidental it might be because we're actually feeling it the most. I think at one point, if you think about 30 years ago, the conversation about climate was very science centric, it was it almost felt like it was in a bubble. And now, it's sort of gone into the public sphere, the language has changed. It made it more accessible. And then there are regions that it went from being some theoretical, abstract, seemingly abstract idea to something that was very real. And so I think that's the part of it that resonates with them, like hold on a second, this is actually happening, why is nothing being done? The same thing happens with other avenues as well, when you think about stuff like inequality or gender equality as well, those conversations are a lot louder than they used to be. I think our generation and the younger generation, in fact, they're a lot braver, they're trying to see things for what they are, and they're genuinely trying to make a difference. And I think that's a good thing. A lot of it also, I think, is stemmed from the language changing scientific information. When I was younger, sometimes it's a bit hard to navigate. And I think that has changed in recent times. And that helps people to be more involved.
Monica Lakhanpaul
Yeah, words are so important, aren't they? Too many words, make it too complex, too many words, make it too inaccessible. And actually, as academics, we are in danger of putting people off with because we try and create these complicated words that you actually wonder if they mean something or not. And why can't we just be a bit more simple. So just as a young person, again, if you are going to be an activist today, or you are an activist, I presume in your own way of, of advocating for climate and pollution? What sorts of activities do you enjoy doing or think are important in doing to raise the dialogue about these issues?
Jhenelle Williams
Yes, I'd like to think I'm an activist in my own way. And I think I approach it, maybe slightly different from some people, I tried to start a start things at home, I that's how I tend to approach things. That's how I tend to lead. I have these conversations with my community and branch out. So I live in Kingston, which is basically like an urban jungle, so to speak. So there's not always a lot of green spaces in complexes and apartments. And so one of the things I had started was, you know, doing a little bit of urban farming, we don't have a huge backyard, but you know, growing seeds, planting, you know, growing as many things as I could in that small square space. And then I got the little kids in my community involved, got my parents involved. And so they started to tell their friends. And in that way, I think is how I tried to be involved in the conversation to educate people about what's going on in is that I try to do it myself, try to get people interested, and so that they'll be curious enough and interested enough to pass on the knowledge. I think the same thing happens with diving. I mean, if you go on Instagram and you see really nice dive videos and type pictures and you get to see a pristine ecosystem at play. It's kind of hard not to be infected by that. And so you're curious, you want to protect that. And I think in that way is how I tried to be involved.
Priti Parikh
Jhenelle, this is so inspiring, and I'm totally on board with your message of climate action begins from home. In a way, you alluded earlier to the fact that the climate science is now accepted. And people are actively engaged in discussions over how to better address climate change, and how to better address the sustainable development goals. So in a way, those agendas are given for us. But as you know, the Sustainable Development Goals expire in 2030. So what would you like to see them replaced with?
Jhenelle Williams
I think a part of the problem right now is that, though they're due to expire, I think countries are not necessarily on target to meet the plans for 2030. And I think post 2030 what needs to happen is, hopefully, we would have sort of figured out where the hindrances are, and what is replaced is sort of a regional docket, something that identifies what the problems are and how we move forward, whether regionally or sub regionally, and I think that probably would be a better idea. It's more refined, it's more goal oriented. And I think that it will also help us to meet a lot of the goals that we had set forth from even just the recent COP.
Priti Parikh
So Jhenelle, you're suggesting that we look at local priorities and streamline the goals after 2030 to focus on those which need further attention?
Jhenelle Williams
Yes, I believe so. I think we need a lot of sub regional dockets and that umbrella SDG set of goals as we have them now. But something that is more refined, and regional specific.
Monica Lakhanpaul
Jhenelle, thank you so much for joining us today has been really exciting hearing from you. We always want to hear from our students. You've really inspired me to go home, do things locally and think regionally, nationally, and globally, as well as look at different countries with a different lens, looking through that lens, my own home and what I do to contribute to something I'll take away from today. Thank you so much for joining us.
Jhenelle Williams
Thank you so much for having me, Monica. It was a pleasure. And thank you, Priti, as well. It was lovely talking to you guys.
Monica Lakhanpaul
You've been listening to unlocking the SDGs: A Blueprint for the Future. This episode was presented by me Professor Monica Lakhanpaul
Priti Parikh
and me Dr. Priti Parikh
Monica Lakhanpaul
and produced by the UCL SDGs initiative, with support from UCL Global Engagement and edited by FrontEar.
Priti Parikh
Our guest today was Jhenelle Williams. If you'd like to hear more podcasts by UCS, subscribe to UCL minds wherever you download your podcasts. Join us next time we'll be back soon.