Close
by Awa Sow and Stephanie Iyala
Contributors
Host: Awa Sow
Guest: Jade-Arsema Godin
Edited by: Awa Sow
Produced by: Awa Sow and Stephanie Iyala
Recording starts
00:00
*Podcast Tune*.
Awa 00:23
Welcome, this is diaspora diaries. I'm Awa, and I'm here with...
Jade 00:27
Jade. Thanks for having me.
Awa 00:29
Thanks for coming. Do you want to tell us who you are, what you do?
Jade 00:34
Sure, I'm Jade, I'm studying global migration at UCL.
Awa 00:39
Do you consider yourself as part of a diaspora, and otherwise, how do you perceive yourself?
Jade 00:45
I'll start by saying I go by she/her. I was born in Ethiopia, but was raised in France with white parents, so I'm adopted, which I think is gonna shape, in some ways, our conversation later. But my relation to diaspora, I guess, started quite late for me. I never really felt like I identified to a specific group, but, but now I would say I do identify with an African diaspora, not specifically regionally located, as in, like East African diaspora or the Ethiopian diaspora, I would say, like, it's more just like a black identity that I kind of identify with.
Awa 01:29
I was having a conversation with Jade, and we were talking about how we deal with contradictions, how we deal with conflicts and morals. So this is what we're going to talk about today. you were telling me about the fact that you can't really choose your family. So what are we doing? What are we doing with family members with whom your morals clash?
Jade 01:55
I guess in some ways, that's something that a lot of people relate to, just this thing of you being brought up in in a family you don't really, you know, it's just, in some ways, a choice that has been made for you, and obviously that has different resonances. And in my case, I guess, but not that it's so isolated when it comes to adoption, but how I deal with it, well, I guess I'm currently reading all about love. So I'm thinking about, you know, childhood and family in this dynamics quite a bit. And I guess I feel quite fortunate thinking that I've been... and knowing that I've been raised up in a very loving and affectionate and honest with lot of open communication, which in some ways there was never really, you know, this discomfort with morals, or, like core values, but because of these different identities, I guess, or like those conflicting identities that we're talking about that creates some kind of disconnect at times. So, yeah, what we're saying is just like, I mean, in our conversation was just trying to navigate how, how do you navigate this disconnect, especially because I have such a different upbringing, my experience compared to the ones my mom, for instance, is so different. And how can we just kind of navigate those different lived experiences, and the fact that we study quite specific things related to race and just like geopolitical issues and things like that, and having the kind of empathy and understanding that people might not have this deeper understandings of how things relate to each other.
Awa 03:28
Because we really dig into the mechanics of racism, and we study like different systems that like reinforce racist regimes generally. I've also been brought up in a very loving environment. I could always talk about racism with my mom, my white mom, and it's only later that I started realizing some things that I found a bit problematic. I think I really had to take a step back and think about how I want to raise certain things, because when you've always been in a very safe place with a person, you always thought of them as being not racist in quotation marks, it's, I think it's a bit confusing. And it definitely is a continuous process. Because now I've realized that since I started raising these things, maybe like four years ago, I keep on raising new things and new things and new things. I think my process of deconstruction is also deconstructing what I've said yes to in the past and in the beginning it was also very frustrating, because I think from her perspective, she took it as some kind of attack to her personally, which I think is like a very common response when you're being called out on saying racist things or having, like, some racist behaviors. But I think the fact that I've always felt very safe with her made it very easy for me to communicate these things. And I think not everyone has the capacities to do that and is willing to do that.
Jade 05:04
Yeah, definitely. I think that's why I also started by saying that it was such, um, you know, like, this loving relationship that I have with my parents just makes me... I mean exactly what you said, makes me comfortable and feel safe enough to be raising certain issues. What I feel like I've struggled with, and still struggle with sometimes, is understanding this kind of... Again, like going back to this disconnect with this being our studies, this being, you know, quite central to our lives because of our experiences. You know, as being young black women, I sometimes struggle finding the words and having the empathy and the understanding that, first, they don't live that right? They don't have this experience. Just recently, when I went back home and, you know, was listening to the news and to the TV and like all of the things that they had access to, made me a little bit more "okay. I need to be a little bit more understanding of where they're coming from." But at the same time, when it's something that is so personal to you and that is so you know, like when we talk about racism specifically, it's just like "I understand where you're coming from" but not necessarily understanding what I'm saying and not necessarily having that theoretical background and/or that experience. But at the same time, I'm just filled with that frustration of you not understanding and also not having done the work right. When we are talking about white parents with black or brown children. Like, how do you navigate that with your mom?
Awa 06:25
I was going to say, I think, I think one thing that is very difficult to do is to understand where they're coming from, because, as a matter of fact, in both your case and my case, they've chosen to have black children. And so to me, there's something very fundamental of doing the work, as you said, and when that need is not met, I think it's very valid for anyone to say, well, this is not something I'm willing to deal with. But yeah, coming back to your question, honestly, I'm very much just giving her books because I am aware that sometimes I don't have the capacity, sometimes I am not willing to engage in any debates when it's about like... my literal existence. And so very often I would recommend books, and I would tell her that we can talk about it when she's read the book. And ideally, I would prefer for her to do the work on her end, and me not having to be involved in any capacity. But then at the same time, realistically, I'm aware that it's not necessarily something that is going to happen, and so I'm willing to put in the effort to share some resources, but there's also a limit to what I'm going to do. So like, I think to me, it's about providing her with the elements for her to figure it out on her own, and then we can, we can talk about it, for sure, because I love, anyways, talking about these topics. So that's fine with me, but very often what I'm also not willing to do is to just bluntly engage in certain debates that are just very draining. And I think if we talk about family more generally, I think there's other members of my family with whom I wouldn't do that. And actually, as a matter of fact, I don't, just because I think it's too exhausting. So in those circumstances, I think I would honestly just take a step back, sometimes. I pick my fights. Honestly I pick my fights.
Jade 08:35
Well, as you should. Yeah, definitely relate to that last part. I mean, in general, to what you said. I guess, like, what sometimes I'm struggling with is, you know, and also, just going back to those morals, is, we're, you know, we're doing these studies, and I sometimes have this sense of responsibility, you know. I'm there, learning about these specific issues. I'm also here because of my personal experience, and I understand why I'm driven to the specific topics, which maybe, for some people, it might just not be such a natural, you know, pathway... And it's this in between, right? Of like, it's, it's draining to have certain kind of conversations, and at the same time, I'm like, well,I also understand... I guess, like that's changing over time, though. The amount of understanding I have and empathy, again, towards certain people that are maybe not doing the work so much.
Awa 09:33
Well, although we're studying these topics, I feel like in your private life and in your academic and professional life, it's a very different story. Because in personal relationships, it's very intimate. You're being very vulnerable. It's you directly that they're interacting with, whereas, I think in academia and in your professional life, it might not be so personal. Although...
Jade 10:11
Well, I guess it's just a different kind of personal. It's different sides of you that you're showing and different extents to which you want to invest right? I'm trying to change my vocabulary and not use so much, like value, invest, and worth, so much, for it's like capitalist undertone. But I, for lack of better words, I will use that now.
Awa 10:32
No, but yeah, definitely. I mean, I think this precisely it, it's a different kind of intimacy. In regards to that, we can definitely relate it to friendships too. Your relationship with your family and your relationship with your friends does not necessarily work the same way. Depending on your very personal experience and exposure to family, you might not necessarily have the space to say no to certain things and say no to certain people. And I think this is something that is very different in friendships.
Jade 11:06
Yeah, definitely, yeah. Because, I mean, just now, we were talking mainly about immediate family, but I definitely have a very different way of approaching relationships with my more extended family when it comes to how much I'm willing to accept and deal with, really. There's a lot of things that I've tried to let go, and also like just constantly fighting and picking new battles, as you said. Now, thinking about friendships, it's definitely a different dynamic. I guess it's like this whole thing between the difference between circumstantial friendships and the moment that you get to really choose. You know, this thing of like how people constantly say "you choose your friends, and you know, you don't really get to choose your family", but then, to what extent can you actually choose your friends? Depending on where you've been, you know, raised, or those spaces that you've just been put into, especially as a child? And I guess the circumstantial aspects in friendship, that is also relevant at university, to an extent.Maybe lesser than high school, where we.. or just school in general, we just see the same people every single day, five times a week. But again, going back to our main question, which is the difference between, how do you deal with having different morals? I am much stricter when it comes to my friendships than with my family.
Awa 12:22
So would you say that you cannot be friends with someone with whom you have different values or different opinions or different morals?
Jade 12:29
Core values? For sure. I think opinions I'm trying to be a little bit more lenient, although obviously that depends to what topic, but that applies to the people that are entering my life now. I think there'... again, in some ways, similar to family. I think I'm more lenient when it comes to friendships from, you know, high school and middle school, because I guess there's also this attachment to longevity, which is definitely not an excuse to keep a friendship. And I'm trying to be mindful of that, of why is it that I'm actually friends with that person? Is it just because of the memories we have, which sometimes, you know, can be enough, but for the person that they are at that at that moment. And I'm trying to be quite mindful of that, just because, you know, I'll constantly say how friends are an extension of yourself, but also reflection of you. And I'm trying to be a bit more mindful as I grow older. Who is it that I'm surrounded by, and who is it that I, you know, spend my time with, and do I want to spend my time trying to debate on, you know, whether white racism exists? Yes or no. You know.
Awa 13:33
I think one thing I'm struggling with a lot in friendships is when, when people do not want to be political. It's not even about not being political. It's about you being in a space in which you can afford to not be political. But as you said, with certain friendships, it's much more difficult to just cut them off, because, like, if you just got to know a person, it's easy to step back because you don't have history with them. But then, when it's someone towards whom you have, like, very strong feelings, because you've got history, because you've been through things together, because you just have a past together, it's very frustrating. I hate having to compromise certain things. But as a matter of fact, I do. I know I do. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I want to give them the space to learn in quotation marks. I think this is an inherent contradiction and an inherent paradox that I'm constantly trying to work with and work against.
Jade 14:37
Yeah.
Awa 14:38
But also I feel like It's something that is so inherent to everything we do and everything we talk about. We're always, always within contradictions.
Jade 14:50
Yeah.
Awa 14:51
I feel like, to me, being aware of that contradiction - it was a game changer, literally, because I think from the moment on when I realized that there is a contradiction and that I definitely want to make something out of it, but also I'm very limited in my capacity to do something against it, just because, again, in terms of family, in terms of friendships, I am always limited by the affection I have for someone.
Jade 15:22
Right.
Awa 15:22
And so, yeah, just being aware of that contradiction and trying to do something about it... Again, there's limits to what I can do with that contradiction or against that contradiction, but I'm also willing to be aware of it.
Jade 15:39
Can I ask, what was that moment when you realized about those contradictions?
Awa 15:43
Oh, that's a difficult one. I think it was with my mom, because I'm not going to cut my mom off. So I think that's when I had to sit with myself and think about, how do I approach this? I don't really want to gaslight myself into thinking that she's not said racist stuff because she clearly did. And as a matter of fact, I'm studying race, ethnicity and post colonial studies, so I'm very much committed to deconstruct these things, and I'm very much committed to constantly learn and break my own problematic things down. And so me acknowledging that there's this contradiction - I've seen it, I can't unsee it, and so I have to learn to live with it, and I need to find tools to live with it. And so I think the tools I found was communicate with her, call her out when she needs to be called out, sharing certain resources for her to learn about it. You know, I think this is the compromise I found.
Jade 16:48
Yeah, I 100% relate to what you're saying. I guess the way that I've dealt with it, especially, you know, when going back to family, but also extending it with friendships, especially, you know, childhood friendships, is realizing that people did the best that they can, which doesn't mean that it was the best, right? And I gained a lot of peace from it, because I guess I was just so stuck on the things that they didn't do and didn't understand and what you know, like failed at in some ways, and I realized how fortunate I was to never doubt whether they try their best or not, you know. I'm not saying that in a way to gaslight myself of the ways that I felt right, and I do very much stand by that frustration and sadness. But I do definitely, you know, feel the way that I felt. But I guess for me to get out of it, and in some ways also to, like, liberate myself, in some ways, from that deep frustration and sadness. It was also to, I guess it's when you start looking at your parents as people, and not just only as parents. And it happened, I guess, like, two to three years ago, and it was just this big switch of like, okay, all of this happened, and I feel the way that I feel, and I will probably keep on feeling that way, and that's just going to evolve in different, you know, in different ways. But I can just hold on to the fact that they tried their best, and I can hold on that it was not the best, but it was still their best. But again, you know, bearing in mind that for a lot of people, that's also not the case, and that you also have to live with that painful realization that they didn't really try their best, and that they didn't do their best, and that, you know, caused so much trauma to whatever degrees. And I guess like having that painful or non painful, like less painful realization, is the way that I kind of dealt with it.
Awa 18:42
One thing I'm struggling with though - we're talking about navigating these contradictions, and we're discussing all these things on a personal level, but then we also attend the very institutions that reinforce the hierarchies that we want to dismantle. So what are we doing about that? Because it's one thing to work on an interpersonal level and in your relationships, but then what do you do about contradictions in your workplace? What do you do about contradictions in university?
Jade 19:16
Right. Yeah, because we've been talking about family and friends and a lot of that circumstantial aspect and how you you know, being put in certain spaces without necessarily wanting to. But then when we talk about that university, we definitely chose it, right? To an extent.
Awa 19:29
We applied.
Jade 19:30
We applied. No one forced us to be here, and that brings a whole different dynamic to that conversation. It's easier to criticize things that have been imposed onto you, but then the moment you have to own up to your decisions. How? How do you find a way?
Awa 19:46
I think one thing that is like very much at the core of the problem is how much comfort we find in these spaces. Because, like, these are spaces we know. These are spaces we understand. And then you foster this space that becomes a safe space in quotation marks for you, because this is what you know. This is where you feel comfortable with.
Jade 20:07
I guess like... why did we come to this university? Right? Like, maybe we can start there. I'm studying migration. And to be honest, I really didn't know much about UCL and the prestige it had, but I did definitely look it up when I had to make my decision between the three top universities in London that I had applied to. So for sure, you know, the prestige, where that prestige comes from. Did I question it? I don't know. I think I knew it for sure. To an extent. I did question it, just because what was important for me was that if I'm going to be in a university or an institution like UCL, there needs to be a large student body. And I remember when I visited the campus last year in May, there was a massive encampment organized by students for Palestine.And I remember this being like, "okay, I know I'm not going to find this at UCL." Well, you know, from the institution, and necessarily from the academic staff. Although I did look as well into diversity of the professors, which is also why I came to UCL to an extent, and not to different universities I had applied to, in London. I'm trying to, kind of, you know, find a reasoning as to why chose UCL, not a different university, despite everything that it stands for that I don't necessarily agree with. Because I think there's also this in between, right, of why is it that we cannot be in that space. When we think about self censorship and thinking about which students usually go to these schools? And I don't want to really dissociate myself from it, because I oftentimes will talk about like, you know, those rich kids that I'm surrounded by at UCL, pretending that I'm not one of them. So I also definitely need to include myself in that conversation, and when we talk about positionality. But you know, something that someone once told me is you always find a way to justify why you're doing it, and how you do it, which always scares me. And I think maybe later we can talk about jobs. But I guess that was how I managed to justify why I'm at UCL. For its student body that seemed relatively engaged when it came to Palestine. And, you know, I saw quite a few societies for people of color and, you know, people of color network and stuff like that. Definitely not things that UCL stands for on, you know, the foreground, but that's how I, kind of like, justified that choice for myself.
Awa 22:24
I think I came from a very different perspective. I was very aware of the prestige of UCL and very honestly, this is why I chose UCL specifically. I knew I wanted to study postcolonial studies and race generally. Honestly, I was like, I need a job after that. I need a job. And to me, from what I've seen, if you want to do research in social sciences, the best way to do it is to go to very good institutions, to very good universities, universities that are very well recognized, with a lot of prestige. So I targeted these universities. I was very aware that there was some kind of paradox here, because I want to study something that goes very much against the institution. But then also, what is the goal of university? The goal is to study and develop new theories and new ideas and like knowledge generally. But then at the same time, universities are part of like, very racist structures. So I think to me, when I applied, it was already a first step of accepting a contradiction. There's a French artist that says you have to use the system to go against the system. And although it can definitely be debated, and I'm not sure I am willing to collaborate with the system so much, but I think when I applied for uni, I made the choice to go with the system to a certain extent, because it's going to give me certain tools, and put me in certain spaces in which I can actually discuss what we want to make out of the system and how we might want to change the system. And again, I think that is a choice that not necessarily everyone would want to endorse, and I totally understand people that would not. I think this is just how I made sense of it. And as you said, we spend our lives trying to make sense of contradictions, trying to justify things and legitimize things for ourselves.
Jade 24:33
Yeah, and I think, like, don't get me wrong, just because I didn't know about UCL first hand doesn't mean that I didn't know about it the moment that I applied for it. So for sure, I knew about its its prestige, Which is also why I ended up applying for it and ended up choosing it.
Awa 24:46
I think one thing that I find very important when we are in these institutions, and this is a conversation we had with one of my lecturers, Gargi Bhattacharya, and we spoke about this very contradiction. And one piece of advice they gave, that I liked a lot, was that we always have to remember what our goals are. And like reiterate our goals constantly, especially when we're in these institutions, because just trying to legitimize us being in these institutions, by trying to put aside the fact that we are, is not necessarily productive. So discussing the contradictions and being aware of the contradictions and trying to work against it is very helpful in these regards.
Jade 25:39
Yeah, for sure. And I think from what you've said the most important is just constantly to question that comfortability. To not really fall into, you know, that trap of wanting to justify what you here in a way that becomes complicit. Well, I guess for each topic that we've talked about, same with family and same with friends, and the same way with institutions where you just want to be true to yourself, and that means questioning that comfortability when it should be uncomfortable.
Awa 26:07
Literally, I think that's a great way to put it. Generally, in anti racist practices, sitting with discomfort is like fundamental. It's how you deconstruct your internalized bias. This is literally how we work against discrimination, sitting with discomfort. And I think it is as valid in interpersonal relationships as in the professional choices and the academic choices we make. And I think one very good way to do that is to try and not stay within these spaces only. Always reach out to other spaces, spaces that are going against the very institutions, spaces that refuse the institution, refuse the system that contributes to the struggles we're trying to work against, is, I think, a very good way to navigate the contradiction.
Jade 27:02
Definitely pushing yourself to just go outside of that comfortability. Well, I mean, just recently, I was telling you how I've realized, you know, going back to that point of your friendships or your surrounding being a reflection and an extension of you, I've realized that I was mainly surrounded by white people, right, whether that was my family or my friends, my classmates, and being in this institution again, and having to consciously go a little bit outside of that, and becoming a bit uncomfortable, right? But, but safer, and relating to, actually, your episode on black excellence with Stephanie, when you were talking about being the only black student in the classroom, and how, in some ways, that kind of gives you some legitimacy that arguably, you know is enough for sure. But I did sit with that, and I did sometimes just put up the black card, not always, obviously, not going to pretend that being black in this classroom is always easy, in any way, but for sure, kind of pushing myself outside the spaces that I've always known, that, because I've always known those, were comfortable to me, but not necessarily safe. And actively pushing myself and being into those spaces that you know are not university, that are not academic, a white that are not all of this ,was definitely uncomfortable. But this is the kind of uncomfortability that I want to be in. I don't want to be comfortable in a racist, you know, colonial institution, right? Like, I want to be reminded of the uncomfortability. And this is... that one that I want to push forward.
Awa 28:34
I like that. I like that aspect a lot. I like how you just opposed comfort and safety. I think especially people of color that grew up in very white spaces got very used to these spaces, and this becomes like your comfort zone, even if it doesn't feel good, even if it doesn't feel safe, it is your comfort zone, and then stepping out of it is very disruptive. It makes you feel uncomfortable. But it also makes you feel good in the sense that although you're not in your comfort zone anymore, you're in a much safer space. And you're willing to disrupt your comfort to reach safety. And to foster safety. So how do we do it when it comes to finding a job? Because I think starting your professional career, you're much more limited. Because that's when you have to find a balance between your financial needs and your ethics, and so it's not always easy to find that compromise. So how do we go about that? On one hand, we don't want to work in certain institutions, because they go against our morals, against our ethics, but then also, they're the ones that will employ us. They're the ones that are going to give us a job. They're the ones that are willing to pay us. So how do we go about that?
Jade 30:03
Yeah, well, I guess I would directly put a little bit more nuance to whether they would want to employ us and pay us properly. I feel like sometimes, you know, the pay can be definitely higher, and they might also not want to hire us specifically. But no, for sure, I think that's, you know, I'm struggling with that every single day now that I'm trying to apply for jobs, and I guess what you said. I mean that just all comes to compromise at the end of the day. And I understand the privilege that comes with what I'm just going to say, but not wanting to center your life around your job, right? And remembering that, again, as much as you need to work, when we relate back to family, when relate back to friendships, when you know we think about the people that we surround ourselves with. Job cannot, well, at least for me, I don't want it to become the center of my life, and I understand that in some ways it will be, right, because it's just where I'm going to spend probably five days a week. But I want to be mindful of not really having that specific expectation, where my morals, ideals, values, all of that is going to be fulfilled in my job. I don't want my job to be a sacrifice. I want it to be a compromise, to an extent, right? So when we talk about values, there's, you know, certain places where for me it's a "no go" for sure. Somewhere it's this in between, where it depends on the team. And, you know, because at the end of the day, the people are also mainly what makes your job, the people that I'm gonna see. So even if I'm in a big institution, if I can be reassured with the people that I work with, I can find some kind of, again, that comfort making sure that outside of that, you know, I still volunteer in whatever grassroots, NGO, anything like that, or activism. I want to make sure that I get all of those parts fulfilled, also outside of my job.
Awa 31:57
It comes back to more or less everything we've said. The contradiction is always there. The paradox is always there, and denying it is not going to move us forward. But just accepting that to a certain extent, we have to compromise, but there's also a limit to what we're willing to compromise and how we're willing to compromise it. I really like what you said about you not wanting your job to be like the center of your life. And I can definitely relate. I do not want my life to revolve around my job, and I think this also something that I find very difficult to accept, because it's something I've been taught like that it's so important to find like the job that fits me, the job that fulfills me, the job I'm aligned with, but at the end of the day, there's so many external things. There's relationships, as you said, there's how you're willing to work against these institutions on a personal level and in your in your life outside of your job.
Jade 33:02
Right before we were talking about institutions, and, you know, looking at University as a means to an end, that end being a job. And I think that just needs this shift, right? The shift of thinking of, "okay, actually, my job is not the end." And that is, you know, personal to everyone, but it's very cheesy. But, you know, the end for me is more my loved ones, and how do I nurture those friendships and relationships and all of that? And for so long, it has been my job, because that's just how it's been, right? You study to get a good grade to then get to a good university, you know, and all of that with the aim for a job, you know. Having to just change that completely by realizing that maybe, you know, a job is definitely not the end.
Awa 33:03
A few weeks back, I was in a conference where Dr Penny Newell, I hope I pronounced that properly, said something I liked a lot. They said that "being disruptive is accepting being imperfect, speaking in this space that is organizing for your silence", and I think that's something that we can take back and apply to being in institutions, in the future, having a job. I think, generally, just accepting that this is something we're willing to do, and this is something we're willing to talk about, and... just generally challenging the status quo, no matter where we are. And it's okay that there's something to challenge, yeah, what is not okay is to not be willing to challenge it.
Jade 34:10
Oh, I like that. Yeah, fully agree.
Awa 34:15
Thank you so much for joining me for this episode Jade.
Jade 34:18
Well, thank you so much for having me.
Awa 34:20
Thank you for listening. Tell us what you think, whether you agree, whether you have a different perspective on what we've discussed. We're very happy to hear from you.
Recording ends 34:34 minutes