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by Awa Sow and Stephanie Iyala
Contributors
Host: Awa Sow
Guest: Marianne Polge
Edited by: Awa Sow
Produced by: Awa Sow and Stephanie Iyala
Recording starts
00:00: *Podcast Tune*
Awa 00:25: Hi everyone. This is diaspora diaries. I'm your host Awa, and I'm here with Marianne to speak about navigating positionalities. To begin with, let me introduce myself. I am a black light skin woman. I'm Senegalese German. How about you Marianne?
Marianne 00:43: hi, so I am a white woman, and I'm French and German, but I grew up in France. If that's relevant, I feel like it might be.
Awa 00:55: I grew up in France, too. So what do you do? Who are you?
Marianne 00:59: I study sociology in Canada at the University of Montreal. So, yeah, I would use the indigenous name, but I do not know how to pronounce it, so I'm not gonna try.
Awa 01:11: Do you consider yourself as part of a diaspora?
Marianne 01:14: No, I would not consider myself as part of a diaspora.
Awa 01:18: Why?
Marianne 01:19: I think the question would be about me being half German and France, or, like, now in Canada or whatever, but it's not like I'm part of any like cultural community. There's also, like no aspect of like forced migration, which I think it feels like it's a big part of diasporas. Yeah, I feel like there's some sort of like imperialism in like, implied in the concept of diasporas, and like it's ties to, like a homeland that are bound to like power dynamics. I would say.
Awa 01:19: I think that's Stuart Hall's definition of diaspora too, that there's the aspect of cultural identity and displacement that's often the result of a forced displacement, of different historical events such as slavery, colonization. And then I think there's also the perception of difference about like, the extent to which you're perceived as a different person in that new place you're living in.
Marianne 02:26: Yeah, or like, even as, like, for example, like, second generation, third generation. Because like, yeah, for me, like, I think that aspect of difference is also key. Like in France, even though I, you know, I was sometimes, like, pointed out as like, oh, the German or whatever, but yeah, there's no concept of, like, a group that is identified by its difference, be it in terms of culture, a physical appearance, or, you know.
Awa 02:54: I think, like a very Big part of diaspora is some kind of understanding of ethnicities, and I mean ethnicities in the very plural way in which ethnicities can develop, not even be but just like genuinely develop. How do you perceive yourself in regards to that, say, do you, do you feel a certain sense of belonging to France and Germany in terms of like the country?
Marianne 03:32: Yeah, no, well, see, that's the thing. I feel like diasporas have a sort of claim to a country, right? Like they kind of, they link their identity to a country.
Awa 03:48: Or a people?
Marianne 03:49: Yeah, yeah, exactly, like more, yeah.
Awa 03:52: Not necessarily a country. Like a, like a people.
Marianne 03:54: Like an identity.
Awa 03:55: A cultural identity.
Marianne 03:56: Yeah, yeah. And I definitely don't have that. Well, I mean, no, and in terms of, like, nationalities and stuff, I don't that's also probably part of, like, growing up, you know, in a bilingual, bicultural, to some extent, setting, yeah, like that resulted in me, not feeling connected fully to any of those places and cultures. Like, I would not say I'm, like, fully French, you know, like, I see some French people and I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not like that. I'm just not like in in Germany, it's the same, more in Germany than in France. I definitely, I definitely feel like I'm not German because I mostly grew up in France, or like, actually just grew up in France.
Speaker 2 04:48: Still, we were brought up by German parents, right? One German parent, respectively. So how does that factor in for you? How did you experience having a German parent growing up.
Speaker 3 05:01: I don't know, I don't like relate to nationalities that much, or like more like cultures, for example. I know that, you know, I always like... during Christmas and stuff like, like, for example, like both my families have the same religious background. There was, like, no conflict between that so, like, the cultures on that end were like, similar, but then during Christmas and stuff, we would combine traditions from Germany and from France. So yeah, so like, on the one hand, like, I don't think like, it made me probably like, not patriotic, or like, not like nationalist, or like, you know, close to, like any country or anything. But that probably also impacted the fact that I moved around after, like, my high school, you know, like, I immediately went to, like, study abroad. The first thing was in Germany, because I was like, "oh, let me improve my German and be closer to my family." So I guess it's not like, about, you know, getting closer to, like, a culture or anything. But yeah, and since then, I've lived in other places too, and like, and now I live in Canada, like, I think, like, it just put me on an international path, and I think that may be impacted by the fact that I grew up bilingual and like bicultural in a sense.
Speaker 2 06:16: We spoke about how you perceived yourself growing up, but do you felt like there's been a shift when you move to Canada, which is like neither France nor Germany? I mean, you've lived in the US too before, so like when you were outside of Europe or outside of France and Germany? Do you feel like this sense of being German and French came out more or no difference?
Speaker 3 06:42: I think it's actually funny, because, like, when I was living in France, when I was little, and, like, growing up, I would always mention that I'm German. Like, you know, when people ask me, like, where are you from? Whatever I would always say, like, "oh, I'm half German." And then when I moved to Germany, I made a point of, like, telling people I'm half French. Like, I would always just specify one side. And then when I moved to the US, which was like, the first time I moved outside of Europe, I immediately said, I'm French and German. Like I put both together. Because I was like, I guess maybe because at that point I had also lived in Germany. So I was like, yeah, I feel like I do have like, different aspects of, like, both countries, like, within me. So yeah, and then now in Canada, it's just, I don't think I care anymore. I' m just like, Well, I mean, I I do care in terms of, like, my positionality within, like, the Canadian society and stuff. Like, I know I'm definitely not from Canada, and, like, it definitely affects my experience. But it's also because of, like, the history of Canada and, like, the the whole Canadian context and stuff, it's like, weird to be, to be an immigrant, like a chosen, like, I chose to go there, knowing that Canada is like a settler colonial state. Like, it's a weird thing to be in that position.
Awa 07:55: How do you position yourself and all that?
Speaker 3 07:59: I think it's something I hadn't realized when I first moved there, which is like a couple months ago, like, right? It's like four or five months ago. I didn't realize because, like, when I moved to the US, like, that was not part of my thought process. Like, I didn't, I don't think I realized, like, ever realized that the US was, like a settler colonial state, and that was like three years ago, or like four years ago, and so like, now in Canada, I think also, like, through my studies, like, it's definitely a topic that we address. But when I moved to Canada, I don't think I had realized the extent of like, what it means to be European in Canada. You know, I asked myself, like, would I feel comfortable staying here knowing that I'm contributing to, you know, like people are asking for their land back, you know, like I'm literally contributing to the problem of, like, indigenous land that is still..
Awa 09:00: ..owned by, or controlled by...
Marianne 09:02: Yeah, like, controlled, owned, yeah, and like, this is just a form of violence in itself, like existing on this land, even though, like in Canada, that's also a thing. Like in Canada, the political discourse around indigenous people and land and cultures and all of that is like, very... From the outside, like, from an outside perspective, you kind of think, "oh, they're so progressive, like, they recognize lands and they recognize peoples and stuff." But then you get there, and it's just like, you realize how it's just not like that. Like recognizing without doing anything about it is also like part of trying to like assimilate instead of making systemic changes. And so like living there as like a European... I don't know if I feel like legitimate to be there.
Awa 10:09: How do you navigate that positionality in academia, in your research or in class?
Marianne 10:18: That's another difficult one. Because, like, well, you know that I decided on sociology like, I wasn't doing that before, right? Like I was definitely not on that path. And, like, I was always interested in those kinds of discussions, but I never thought about, like, actually studying those topics, right? Like...
Awa 10:37: What were you doing before?
Marianne 10:39: I was interested in AI governance. So, like, I was kind of like debating between actually doing coding and stuff, and like working in AI or, like doing governance and like political sciences and stuff, and like doing, like AI governance. So like, the sociology thing came up more during my gap year, where I did, like internships, and I was like, working on like inequalities and like different sorts of inequalities within different institutions and stuff, and I just realized how, like, these are topics that I'm actually interested in, and like, I would actually want to study them more, especially like the questions of different systems of oppression and the way they just are all connected, and like, for example, environmental oppression, with racism and just all of these different aspects, and, like the decolonial perspectives and all of that. So like coming back to your question, that's definitely something I struggled, slash struggle with, because, like, it's hard to know if I am the person to do... like to study these kinds of things. Yeah, just trying to figure out if I should and if I'm the person to like, the best person to do that? Or if there's other people who should be in that position more than me, and, yeah, you know, just like all these things,
Awa 12:10: Why would you not fit what exactly makes you think, Oh, I'm actually not the person that should be studying that, or that should be, I don't know, at the forefront of the research, if that's a thing.
Marianne 12:25: Well, just like, first of all, like, I'm very privileged. Well, I consider myself as, like, very privileged, both in terms of, you know, I'm a white woman from Europe. I am, like, financially stable and stuff like, you know, I have a lot of privilege. I'm, like, studying abroad. I know many languages. I am, for a fact, like, privileged. And trying to study these systems of oppression that I'm not necessarily feeling myself. How do I justify that? Not just, like, not in terms of, like, oh, I need to come up with a plan to explain to people what I'm like, doing that. But like, why would I do that? And it's just because I think it's important to work on these topics. But I don't want to be obviously, like, I don't want to be someone talking about people and just like, making research for them, and, like, trying to prove things for them without, like, I don't want to be that, like external person coming to study people and then figure out stuff for them. And like, you know, but then I actually recently had a class in that, and there was, like, this one text that actually really liked. It was from Linda Alcuff. It's actually really old, which I was surprised by. It's like, 1991 like, sometimes I wonder, like, why are we still at this place? I'm just like, confused as to, like, why these things existed so long ago and we're still at the exact same spot. Or like, it feels like that. But yeah. Anyway, she was, like, talking about the reasons. Like, she was talking about, like talking for people, and whether or not it is acceptable, and in which circumstances and like we all agree that it's not like, you know, we don't want to be talking for people like we just described. But then she said, it's also not an option to retreat completely from the conversation, because that would also reinforce the systems of dominance that are in place, because if we don't challenge them, like, how are they supposed to ever change? You know.
Awa 14:28: And I think it's also, to a certain extent, going with it. If you don't get involved, you let these systems be, you let these systems flourish, you let them live.
Marianne 14:41: So that's the thing. And like, I think that's kind of like, when I first arrived to Canada, and, like, in my studies program, I was kind of, like, struggling with that. And my option, in my head was like, Yeah, I can't do that. Like, I need to, I need a retreat. Like, it's not my place to, like, be doing that research. But then ... like reading that text. I was like, I get it. It's like, I do understand that we also need to be talking about these things and we need to be in those spaces. But maybe I'm not part of like, the we that needs to be in those spaces, right? So I still like struggle to, like, know, like, to what extent I need to be doing that research and like, be visible and stuff, because, like, that's also part of academia, right? Like, when you want to be in academia, you always have to be visible and doing, like, more research and more publications and more stuff, you know, like, it's just like the system needs you to be visible if you will ever want to be in the system, right? So, yeah, that's kind of like difficult. And then she presents four things that you need to consider before choosing to contribute to the discourse or not, and like speak to/for others. And the first one is like, the impulse, or like, the impetus that you have. Like, what's your like? What's the reasoning behind it? Because some people, it's just to, like, make themselves look better and stuff, right? Like, it's just, especially in academia, I feel like a lot of people are just like, oh, I need to write stuff. Like, I need to make myself look good, make myself look like a good researcher and stuff. So that's definitely not what we're trying to do. And she says, and I'm quoting "if one's imme impulse is to teach rather than listen to a less privileged speaker, one should resist that impulse long enough to interrogate it carefully. And at the same time, we have to acknowledge that the very decision to "move over or retreat" can only occur from a position of privilege." And then the second thing that she mentioned is, like, location and context. And she says, like, for example, especially the thing about positionality, right? Like, a lot of people will choose to present their positionality at the beginning, or, like, within a text, and say, like, oh, you know, like this is a justification, or like this explains my perspective, which can be good, but only if it actually has an impact on like, you questioning what this positionality means for the researcher, like for the words you're producing, or like the discourse, like, if this, like, critical thinking doesn't happen behind the positionality statement, then, like, the positionality statement is just useless. Like, what's the point of it?
Awa 17:26: It doesn't do anything, and it is supposed to do something. I think you're supposed to engage with it within the context of your research. It's not outside of your research. And I think a lot of scholars get that wrong, they would present their positionality as something that is aside of their research, that is not constitutive of their research. And I think that's the mistake a lot of people do.
Marianne 17:52: So, like, that's the second one. Then she talks about responsibility. That's just the fact that when you're speaking, you should always, like, carry with with yourself, like a sort of accountability, accepting criticism from people, especially the concerned group, like the concerned community, people that you're talking about or for or to. If you don't have this, like, reflective attitude about your own work, then you can't be speaking for, to, about people, like, that's just, you know, that's when, like, there's an issue that arises.
Speaker 2 18:30: And I think here I'd also add constantly questioning again and again and again. Because I think what a lot of people would also tend to do is question it once, and if they get validation by often the people they want validation from, then they would be like, okay, I'm good. I don't need to question myself again. Whereas I think seeking first criticism and feedback from a lot of different people and a lot of different groups, especially the groups involved in the research, is important. But I think there's also on top of that, the aspect of time. I think throughout time, you also need to question your research again. There's always new things that you didn't see or that the people you asked back then didn't see back then.
Marianne 19:21: And I feel like, you know that's also, for example, like, when doing, let's say, field research, there are a lot of people that will, like, ask for permission, or like, consent or whatever, at the beginning of the research, and then never ask again. And it's like, yeah, you got it from like, people signed. But, like, ethically? Is that like relevant? No. like...
Awa 19:42: Because so many things change.
Marianne 19:44: Exactly.
Awa 19:45: Especially in field research. I don't know, if you're doing like ethnographic research, or if you're doing like interviews, sometimes things just slip out and so seeking that approval, again, after the research and after a few years, I'd argue, is just so important.
Marianne 20:04: Yeah, definitely. And then the last one, which is actually her most important one, is the effects of the discourse. So like she says, for example, "in order to evaluate attempts to speak for others in particular instances, we need to analyze the probable actual effects of the words on the discursive and material context. So we must also look at where the speech goes and what it does there." So like, that was all part of her text. And I think, like, that's definitely, like, really important as well. And like, for example, like refusing to include things, or even for communities to like, refuse to like, talk about aspects of their cultures, their... whatever. That's what Audrey Simpson names ethnographic refusal. Just like forms of refusal, I think, are also important, but when you're trying to think about what the impact of like your research is, realizing that some of it might not need to be public or like might not, you don't want to have that out there.
Awa 20:34: And it's very legitimate.
Marianne 21:17: Definitely.
Awa 21:21: Do you want to expand a bit more on what you mean or what you understand under ethnographic refusal? And I think that draws back to the impetus the first element he mentioned. It reminded me of Ruben Andersson's research on clandestine migration, where the author discusses how people that had migrated and had been deported back to their country would speak about very specific things when researchers would come or journalists would come. What is the aim behind the research? What is the researcher trying to do? Why would the person that is being interviewed collaborate and help you further your research? Most of the time, would not benefit from your research or from your interview in the case of like journalists, why would they collaborate? And I think that's why it's also so important to think about your research and think about what you're trying to do with your research. Your research, I believe, should have a specific goal, and if this goal is not helping the people that are involved, then you should actually question your research.
Marianne 21:29: From what I understood like right now, I think it can be both on the part of like the researchers, but also like the communities and like the the people and stuff, because like the researchers can choose to not include aspects of what they found out in their papers or like in like public information, whereas like the communities, I think that's like, probably like more the empowering aspect, because like for the for the researcher, it's like, I feel like it's more like an ethical thing, right? It's like, I know that if I put that out there, it might harm the people that I'm talking about, but for the people that... like the communities and stuff, when, especially if it's like an outsider researcher or like maybe sometimes even if it's just like someone from their community, but like they know it's in the perspective of research, they can just choose not to divulge some information about themselves, because it's like,wWhat do you mean I'm gonna be like... you know, they're gonna put in text whatever I said, and say, this is, like, the reality of a whole group of people and stuff like... It can also like... divulging information about themselves, like obviously, through history, we know that the majority of researchers have portrayed them as others, right? So it's like, like, why would I want to contribute to something knowing that the outcome is going to be me equals outsider?
Speaker 2 24:19: And that's why it's also so important to acknowledge that some people are not going to speak to you and some people are not going to say what you want to hear. Because again, if it doesn't further their interest in any way, why would they?
Marianne 24:40: Yeah, and also, like, actually thinking back about, like, the question, you know, initially it's about, like, how I deal with that. I feel like, recently, I've also thought about methodologies and like, methods that are more in line with what I'm trying to do. And, for example, like me being in that privileged position can actually help me raise voices that are not heard. And like I've seen some research that was done collaboratively, where at the end the name of the author wasn't the name of the researcher, but the name of the people that were actually participating in the research. So it's just that you're using your platform and like, your leverage as like a researcher to make other voices heard. And I think that's actually really nice. I've like, read articles and stuff that were like, based more on like testimonies, and even though the name of the researcher at the end was still the name of the primary author on the paper, like it wasn't research, as in interviewing people or like, like having participants and stuff, it was more like their perspective from the beginning to the end.
Awa 26:02: And I think here it's also very important to specify that we all have a positionality because, like we started with discussing diaspora, discussing how you fit in or do not fit in any diaspora, and you mentioned how you very much debated whether you belong where you are and whether you're the one that should do the studies you're interested in doing. But I think we also have to acknowledge that we all have a positionality, and most of the time in academia, if we are in such circles, we have some kinds of privileges, and all the things you've mentioned earlier about debating and questioning and questioning again, like how you should conduct your research and if you should conduct your research. I think this is something I'm also thinking about a lot. Being a black woman is not enough.
Marianne 27:08: You what? That also reminds me of I had, like, this tendency to think that people that are affected are like the best, to like talk about themselves, which, when I say like that, obviously it's true. But then, if you think about it, you can't generalize people's situations. Like, as you said, like, we all have, like, very specific backgrounds, very specific like, positionalities and stuff. And like, it's not because, like, you're a black woman, you can represent all black women. Like, that's not, you know, that's not it, or, like, I'm, you know, I'm obviously not going to represent all, like, French people or German people, you know, or even more specific things. So I think, yeah, that's just, like, something I'm also trying to, you know, like, it's, it's just something. It's also not just black or white. It's like, more complex than we think. And like, I think, especially within research and, like, recently, with all this, like, you know, acknowledging that the people affected are the ones who should be talking, we also need to be careful that it's not just like a couple representatives that take all the... all the voice and like speak for everyone else, because that would just be reproducing the same mistakes as we've been doing, like for years and years and years.
Awa 28:29: I think that's a great way to conclude. It very much highlights how we live in a very complex world. Identities are very complex, existences are very complex, and I think it's important to think about how we navigate them. What do you think? Do you agree? Do you have different perspectives? We're very happy to hear more about your opinions, so feel free to let us know. Thank you so much, Marianne, for this conversation.
Marianne 29:04: Thanks for inviting me.
Recording ends 29:15 minutes