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by Awa Sow and Stephanie Iyala
Participants
Awa Sow
Stephanie Iyala
Recording starts
Awa 0:00: Hi everyone. This is the first episode of diaspora diaries. I'm so excited to be here. My name is Awa (she/her), and I'll be the main host of this podcast. It goes without saying that this podcast will not be what it is without the help and support of the people around give credit when credit's due. So I'd like to introduce our producer and co director of the show, Stephanie.
Stephanie 0:24: Hi everyone. I'm Stephanie (she/her). I'm the producer slash co director of this podcast. I'm super, super happy to be part of this podcast with Awa, and this is something I've been meaning to do for a long time. And honestly, you guys are in for some real conversations.
Awa 0:39: So Stephanie and I, we met a few months ago as we started our masters. We're both studying race, ethnicity and post colonial studies, and had both considered starting a podcast for a while. Having a background in social sciences, I've always had these very, very interesting conversations in and outside of seminars with a wide range of different people on topics that I felt personally very close to. Very early on, we spoke about how we'd both be interested in opening up these conversations and sharing some of the things we discuss. Do you want to tell us a bit about how it was from you side, Stephanie?
Stephanie 1:14: Yeah sure. So Well, we both were doing a good chat and express a lot of nuances to topics on race, identity, gender and etc. So we agreed that a podcast would be a great outlet for sharing these thoughts. And whilst we both share the same strengths, like researching and writing, I personally prefer to be on the production side of things, which is where you'll be hearing more from Awa. And not just Awa, we have a lineup of amazing, amazing guests to come on the show. So not just experts in quotations, but we have other students, poets. We have writers, and this is going to be amazing. Another important thing is, although we share similar thoughts, we have different perspectives on a lot of ideas, one reason being as we come from different places. So for instance, I'm Congolese, and I grew up in London. I can't speak French or Lingala, so let's not get into that.
Awa 2:04: And I'm both Senegalese and German, and I grew up in France.
Stephanie 2:08: We both experience the world differently, which provides a real beauty to this podcast. So Question time, what got you thinking more about the whole theory behind the diaspora, identity, race and power dynamic.
Awa 2:20: Well I remember when I was in high school, we had to read this book race and history by Claude Levi Strauss. I must have been like 17 or so, and I'm not sure what I would think of the book if I read it again now, but I remember that back then, it really stuck with me. So at that time, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to study for my undergrads. So I started writing down my thoughts in a journal, and I mentioned Claude Levi Strauss and how he discusses wealth distribution and says, I quote, "what you gain on one you always stand to lose it on the other." And then later a book, he mentions that only from time to time history is cumulative. In other words, the account set up to a favorable combination." End quote. So what I understood from it back then, this meant that wealth could theoretically, an emphasis on the theoretically here be distributed equally. So I wrote that I'd be interested in studying how one can find a balance, a compromise. Obviously, I was talking from a very, very naive point of view. I probably thought that there must be a solution. We just have to find it. But I think this is how I started getting more into studying power dynamics, and this also very much made me reflect on the place of race. It's funny for me, it's only later that I draw the link between these questions and my actual lived experience as a racialised person.
Stephanie 3:48: See, I would answer that question differently. For me, I would say it was my life in comparison to how you found an academic route into these questions, like what I saw around me gave me the foundations to want to learn more about these topics, such as identity and race. Being a second generation immigrant meant that I was very easily connected to these topics, to these sociological topics, and I always found it easy to understand and grasp.
Awa 4:18: I was listening to Dave sung three rivers in the outro, Daniel Kaluyya articulates his journey towards self acceptance. And one line stuck with me, particularly.
Daniel Kaluyya 4:31: Like the tide will tell me that being being black is an obstacle. I had to switch rivers, bro, I say being black is an asset. I am who I am because I'm black and I love everything about it. You feel me, and that's who the fuck I am.
Awa 4:57: It reminded me of one of the first conversations I had with Stephanie. Shortly after we met, we spoke about our doubts and insecurities when we started our masters, and we spoke about how we acknowledge our blackness and all that. That's the topic of the first episode.
Awa 5:11: When we had the first meeting with our cohort, I was so amazed and proud and happy about the fact that we are a majority of people of color in the cohort. This is something I am not used to at all. I've mainly lived in very white spaces, so just seeing such a diverse cohort made me feel so proud, and actually made me think about the concept of black excellence, the fact that I was not exposed to black people growing up, yeah, seeing all these things on social media just gave me a lot of hope and encouraged me to actually, you know, try and experiment new things, although I must say that I haven't put in so much effort to actually establish hobbies as part of my identity, because I felt like to me, black excellence was studying in a good university, making money having a good job. It was hard for me to accept that black excellence is not just school and it's not just having a great job and making money, it's also all these creative things.
Stephanie 6:25: Black people are achieving and excelling in their respective fields, like, whether that's a creative academic, Black excellence is added to success, it's amazing because it was like that people can do everything and anything they want to do. We're here. They were literally here. I think it's very important for like younger generations to see like positive images of black people, not just like black people getting arrested or black people getting murdered, painted as this horrible caricature
Awa 6:54: We see us so often in contexts where there's sadness black people, especially African people, are poor, they're hungry, they're like, inherently sad and struggling.
Stephanie 7:08: But then again, black excellence isn't all good. It's definitely a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure, yes, yes. There's a lot of pressure to be the best at everything, like you always have to be the first
Awa 7:21: Nowadays, it's, it's just basic to be a black rapper, be a black famous singer, because it has been done so often. Yeah, so it's not valued anymore. And I'm like, Well, yes, it is. It is. So I'm so proud of every black person that actually succeeds in the music industry. It's not because there has been people before that it is not as important anymore. In so many different fields, we're still so underrepresented, exactly and underpaid.
Stephanie 7:53: Emphasis on underpaid! Just because a black person's already done it, if you're going to be the next person to do it, you have to be even more better than the first.
Awa 8:04: It is not because you're not the first one that you're not struggling through the burdens of white supremacy. Just take university. We've battled through so many white spaces, so many microaggressions, so many very openly racist statements, teachers, students, administrative staff.
Stephanie 8:28: We were not in the books in English literature. We were not there. The books we were reading were not from black people. They were not from people of color, like we are literally learning Shakespeare all the goddamn time like it was like Shakespeare or Jacqueline Wilson, like there was no black people.
Awa 8:45: Especially I think, when you're interested in a career in writing or in academia, everything you see is not you. It's getting better. It's getting better. That's where I see the value of black excellence, pushing black owned businesses, black achievements.
Stephanie 9:04: However it's like, my thing is, like, what is the standard of excellence for black people, or pressure to be the greatest? It's like, what if I don't want to be the greatest? Like, even though I don't want things to be mediocre, why is there pressure to do well, all the time, I don't like that.
Awa 9:20: I think there's a lot of criticism to do towards the system in which we develop, in which we grow, but I think a lot of it also comes from ourselves.
Stephanie 9:33: You don't want to fulfill the self fulfilling prophecy of what you see in the media, what you've heard about black people, so therefore you pressure yourself to excel. Does that make sense? But because of this pressure, this leads to feelings of like, I don't feel like I'm working hard enough, that's impostor syndrome. Now, surely.
Awa 9:57: What's your impostor syndrome? Because. We speak about it a lot when we feel like we're not where we should be. Yeah, I think that's when we bring it up most often, because we feel like we shouldn't be in the space. We shouldn't be in this space. And so I was listening to this podcast where Kevin Chassangre mentioned three pillars of the impostor syndrome. The first one is that you're you feel like you're misleading your surroundings. So you're not really, you're not deserving the situation in which you are in. And then the second one is that there's an incorrect allocation. So basically, you're going to try and justify your situation by very external factors, such as luck, or it's a mistake, or it was not that hard to actually get into wherever you are. Get into the degree in our case. And then the third one is the fear of being unmasked and actually people realizing that you're, in our case, again, not as smart as you seem to be, or that you can't actually provide what they expect you to provide, because you're not as smart as they thought you were, you know. And I think this makes so much sense in regards to the conversations we've been having, and I think this is something that is so common in our cohort, specifically, I don't know about other programs.
Stephanie 11:28: I just think, but Isn't that ironic, like we say, ironic in the sense that we're in a cohort where it's predominantly people of color, literally, people of color in this space speaking about race, ethnicity, power dynamics, gender, class, and yet there's a feeling of we don't deserve to like, surely this would be a space where it would reflect positive black excellence, right? Yet, there was a flip somehow, and now it's like, we don't deserve to be here. We're all here by luck. What is that about? Like, what's going on?
Awa 12:11: From my perspective, when I came in, talking from the perspective of a person that has quite high self esteem, I'd say, the fact that it was all in English with native speakers, because I had studied in English before, but it was with non native speakers, mainly. And so now I'm in this environment where I feel like I'm not very articulated. I can't express my ideas so well, and I hear other people speaking, they're just so well articulated. The get their point across, and it's so smooth and it's understandable.
Stephanie 12:49: But this is the funny part. That's how I feel about you. Like you articulate yourself really, really well, very, very clearly. Like all your points make sense to the class, like the class discussion. So when you said that back to me, I was very confused.
Awa 13:06: And so many other people in the class have actually told me the same thing. And I was like, it makes no sense. And so I was like, wait a minute. This. This can't really be and coming back to the three pillars I've just mentioned, I feel like the incorrect allocation aspect is so important in here to actually understand, like, what is, what is going on in our head, because I have, at this point when I started doubting my capacities and my ability to actually bring something to the classroom, I started thinking about how many people have actually applied to this master's program, and it was a bad idea for me to actually try and look it up. I don't know if I found, like, if the source I found was a reliable source, I can't say, but it seemed like not so many people had applied to the masters. And I was like, oh, that's why they wanted me.
Stephanie 14:03: No, I had the opposite, like I heard that a lot of people applied.
Awa 14:09: Anyways. I think my point is, we will, in this sense, always try and justify why we got it into this masters from, like, an external factor,
Stephanie 14:23: Okay, for me, personally, my undergrad, I was the only black person. I just felt like I wasn't supposed to be in the institution necessarily. I was, like, this university, not for me as I should have just gone to, like, I'm not gonna name drop any other universities, but I feel like I wish I went to like a predominantly black university, but I just felt like UCL wasn't for me, like I would just look around and just feel like this is not I don't deserve to be here. I remember one person made a comment that I got here on the basis of diversity quota and like, post code quota and so like...
Awa 14:23: What's that?
Stephanie 14:26: Where you live, because I live in a working class area, predominantly working class. The first time they said that to me, they said it twice, I was like, Oh, I don't deserve to be here, but it's something in me flipped. It's something switched. And I was like, Oh, I can't lie, like that hashtag black excellence. I'm actually gonna prove to them why I'm here. And then I, like, worked my socks off in third year. But then even when I got my grades back, I was like, yeah, that, that was just luck. Surely luck, it wasn't in my hard work. I don't know if it was a racialized experience to why - my own take on impostor syndrome and black excellence, I'm still figuring that out, because I don't know if it's something that I could racialize.
Awa 15:54: In what sense?
Stephanie 15:55: So I don't know if the black in black excellence fits with my experience, or whether it's just like a simple case of impostor syndrome, or that whether my success is palatable to the white gaze. I don't, I can't speak for certain.
Awa 16:14: That's a very interesting point, because I think I started feeling like an impostor, specifically when I started being in more diverse settings..
Stephanie 16:27: same!
Awa 16:28: Because, as I said, I've always been the one black person in the school, right? And so I felt like that was my power. That was why I was so special, that's why I could bring in some critical perspectives into the room. And then when I started being with people of color, with black people, I was like, But wait a minute, I'm not that special. Actually. I'm not that smart. I was really, really just feeling that because I was the one person of color in the room.
Stephanie 17:04: Exactly! that's what I was trying to articulate about my bachelor experience. Because I was only black person. I thought that was my that was my power, like I was I can bullshit my way through this. If anything they want to speak about black people, I can just add in some reference, like, I used a race card a lot of the times I've let as a black person, like, therefore I could speak for the black community. I was like, No, you can't. But that got me the grades like that got me, like, class points?
Awa 17:04: You think so? Is it that?
Stephanie 17:29: I mean, grades, not necessarily, but class points? Yes.
Awa 17:39: I think we have to be very careful with that. Our experiences and our cultural background and ethnical background actually bring something to the table, as a matter of fact. And I think you have to be careful with not trying to dismiss the fact that all these things bring a very, not necessarily very critical, but I'd say maybe just a different perspective to the table, which adds on to the conversation. Like it's a plus, and we have to...
Stephanie 18:14: Really?
Awa 18:15: I think so.
Stephanie 18:16: I think in some cases, yes, but like, why should I get extra points because of my experiences? But then again, we are humanity babes. Like we are doing humanities. We're talking about real life, like issues, and I feel like a lot of things that are p ersonal experiences, and what we know about the world because of our personal experiences, forcing us to know about things or like things in the world that a lot of people don't know. Like, for example, when I mentioned something that happened, for example, I was talking about Congo, cobalt, whatever. A lot of the people in my class did not know that, and I was like, but my experience has helped me link infrastructures to that, does that make sense?
Awa 18:28: It does.
Stephanie 19:03: Yeah. But then I was like, I don't think that's excellence. I think, I don't know, I don't think that's excellence. I think that's like, not like a shortcut, but...
Awa 19:17: I think we have to be careful to actually, like, move away from certain concepts we've been using. I think it's not that that actually made you excellent. It's just a fact. You're like a person of Congolese heritage that grew up in the UK. So this, these are just facts. However, the fact that you linked different ideas in that your experience as being racialized in a certain way in the UK made you think about the ways in which geopolitics are racialized, for example - I don't know if that was the example you were getting at.
Stephanie 19:58: Yeah.
Awa 19:58: I think this is an advantage that not just anyone has. I don't see why we could not see it as a power. I perceive it as like part of the black excellence, not in the sense that you've achieved something and that you've worked so hard to get where you are. Because I'm not trying to be white. I'm not trying to achieve what a white person has achieved, because I just acknowledge that I come from a different background, and that my strengths are not necessarily the strength of another person, no matter what background that person is coming from. You know, I just acknowledge that my background is giving me some kind of strength that I will use, because it is my power, and I, I think that's the case for just any and everything in life. If we move out of, like, the very ethnical, racial perspective, let's say you're from a farmer's family, okay, I think you could have some very good advantages if you study agriculture, right? The fact that you grew up in such an environment gives you a certain proximity with certain practices. It doesn't make you better than another person, but it makes you advantaged in a certain sense, and this is something we just have to acknowledge.
Stephanie 21:26: Oh my gosh okay. Sorry not okay finish, but okay, you reminded me of something. We studied this in sociology GCSE, 101, about elaborate codes, and basically about how a lot of middle class people speak in the elaborated code. So for example, they speak in very formal language. They have a wider vocabulary, which is like passed down through generations, like in the home. They speak with wider vocabulary. Instead of saying, Oh, I'm happy, they'll say, I'm content - things like that. But also because they're also like, well read, well versed in a lot of topics, because in the house, they have a lot of books, or they have a lot of access to books, instead of having to go to, like, a public library, which barely have any books. But because of that, they are advantaged at school, because of their background, if you have a lot of books at home, if your family's reading all the time, if what your your family's day to day looks like, is like reading at home together, or like, instead of watching TV and TV shows you just read, or the TV shows you watches the news and like, I Don't know University Challenge, but because of that, in schools, they are at an advantage, because at schools, they speak in the elaborated code, they teach in the elaborated code, or they also have social capital to achieve better at school, so they're at an advantage. That's basically what you're saying.
Awa 22:59: That's basically what I'm saying. Because I think we have to acknowledge that in this very specific masters that we're studying in, for example, our ethnic and racial background gives us an advantage on certain sociological questions.
Stephanie 23:02: Yeah, for sure.
Awa 23:03: And I think this is not something we should neglect, and this is not something we should try to put aside. It is our strength, and I think it is good that we praise our strength. It is difficult. And I I think we should take what we have and actually be proud of it and actually try and make something out of it.
Stephanie 23:44: I agree. I think it can be empowering that, like our existence is empowering enough. I think someone said it in our class. I wrote a down. It said "our existence is rebellion", and I feel that touched me a lot, because we've been through enough, like we've been through enough as it is, I think.... something that you would think about, especially during this masters doing all these readings. I was like black people had been through it, through and through it, through and through and through and through it. And just to... my existence is enough, my experiences that I have is enough, and I can write about it, and I can talk about it, and we can have a podcast about it, and we can get into it.
Awa 24:34: I think this is a great way to finish this podcast, keeping in mind that while an impostor is actually trying to mislead people, we're just trying to make the best out of this masters, making the best out of our lives, making the best out of our experiences and our knowledge. So I earlier mentioned the podcast on the impostor syndrome, one way they concluded was mentioning how you actually get out of the impostor syndrome. One advice I liked a lot was starting a list of the things you achieve, because we tend to perceive our achievements as exceptions. It's just luck. It's a mistake. It's because this one time, it was very simple. Let's say you pass an exam. This one time the exam was very simple. That's why you managed. If you start writing down all of your achievements and go back to that list regularly, you'll actually see how many things you've achieved. Is it like very simple things in your daily life, or is it like bigger things that are more recognized by the society in quotation marks. Again, I think just keeping track of all these achievements also helps you realize that you're you're not an impostor.
Stephanie 25:52: I like what you said. It doesn't have to necessarily be like, be like huge or like. It has to be an exam. It could even be like getting through the day exactly something. So it's more like just and then it kind of reminds me of gratitude, you know, like just the fact that you woke up like, that's enough like, that's enough like, that's literally enough like this world is as hard as it is.
Awa 26:11: If it is hard for you to wake up in the morning, waking up straight after your alarm has rung is an achievement and keeping track of these is, I think, really helpful to just learn to recognize that we're all doubting ourselves to a certain extent, but there's ways in which we can reconstruct ourselves and rebuild this self esteem.
Stephanie 26:36: I also wanted to end with a quote. I took it from Janice Kasam Asare. She wrote a fantastic article for Forbes on like black excellence. So I just wanted to leave a quote from her, because she basically sums it up. "There needs to be a shift in what we glorify and venerate. Black excellence is not just the firsts who accomplish the unimaginable. Black excellence is not just those who achieve accolades and awards. Black excellence is simply existing in a world that so desperately wants to destroy you."
Awa 27:11: Thank you so much for listening. We'll put all of the references we've used yes in the description of this episode. Please let us know if you have any thoughts on the episode, if you disagree with something we've said, if you agree, we're just happy about any type of feedback. And thank you for listening. Thank you for listening.
Recording ends 28:17 minutes