Episode 2: Miscarriage as a Feminist Issue

Zeynep (00:05) 

Hello and welcome to the second episode of the Let's Talk About Women's Health podcast, a podcast from the Institute for Women's Health at UCL. On this podcast, we're exploring women's health and wellbeing through the life course via honest conversations and expert insight. And I'm really delighted today to welcome Victoria Browne and Susie Kilshaw. Welcome you two. 

Susie (00:29) 

Hello, thanks for having us. 

Vic (00:29) 

Hi. 

Zeynep (00:31) 

It's so great to have you guys on the podcast to talk about miscarriage and particularly whether miscarriage is a feminist issue and how it's a feminist issue. I know you've both done so much work on this question from slightly different perspectives. So, to start out, I would love it if you guys could each introduce yourselves and just talk a little bit about your disciplinary perspective and how you think about women's health. 

Susie (00:56) 

So, I am Susie Kilshaw. I'm a medical anthropologist based at UCL. I've been at UCL for a very long time. I've been there for pretty much my whole professional career. And I actually did a master's in medical anthropology and a PhD at UCL as well. Originally, I was interested in something quite different. I was looking more at anthropology of psychiatry. I was really interested in the medicalisation of distress and new and emergent and contested illnesses. My PhD was on Gulf War Syndrome, so started off looking at something very different. But for me, things really changed in terms of my research interest when I had my own experience of miscarriage. And I ended up having three miscarriages and through that experience and talking to people around me and sort of seeing what was in the public discourse, I became very fascinated with looking at it from an anthropological perspective. 

Zeynep (01:50) 

And you Victoria? 

Vic (01:52)  

So, I'm a feminist philosopher based at Loughborough University. I've been there about three years now. And I've been looking at miscarriage from a feminist perspective, feminist philosophical perspective for over 10 years now. And I first started thinking philosophically about miscarriage at a time in my life when more people around me were getting pregnant and trying to get pregnant. And some of those people experience pregnancy losses. And it really struck me that I had never read anything by a feminist philosopher, or any feminist really, for that matter, about the subject of miscarriage and stillbirth. And I found that strange because it's so obviously a topic that should be of interest to feminism because it's got so much to do with gender roles and bodily stigma, bodily shame, bodily autonomy. And so, I really started thinking about why there was this kind of silence around miscarriage within feminist philosophy and feminism more broadly. And it really, I really do think it's because of a kind of fear or concern on the part of feminists that if we do begin to acknowledge miscarriage and the strong feelings that it can provoke and the ways in which for many people, not all people, but for many people, it does bring a sense of loss or a sense of grief. If we acknowledge that, then we'll be inadvertently ceding ground to the anti-abortion movement. And so I think there's been a reluctance on the part of feminists to think about it and discuss it. And so that's something that I really wanted to take on in my own work. And it seemed to me that feminist philosophy was well equipped to think through these issues and show that there is no contradiction between supporting miscarriage and supporting abortion rights and access. 

Zeynep (04:06) 

Yeah, I mean, straight off the bat, that is such an interesting question to raise and I guess it really depends how you approach that, you know, whether you're approaching those questions from a sense of fetal personhood or something like that, or whether you're approaching it from the experience of a woman. But just to follow up a little bit, what does it mean to think about miscarriage in a philosophical way? And then I'm going to come to you, Susie, what does it mean to think about miscarriage in an anthropological way?  

Vic (04:34) 

So, I think there's two aspects to it. I think partly it's a critical project. So, I think we can philosophically interrogate some of the assumptions that scaffold particular ways of thinking about pregnancy and by extension miscarriage and so on. So, we can interrogate ideas about naturalness, about normalcy and so on, which I've tried to do in the book that I wrote about miscarriage.  

But I also think there's a constructive aspect to the project. So, I think that's all about constructing alternative and more liberatory ways of thinking about pregnancy and miscarriage. So, for example, we can provide alternative ways of thinking about embodied agency or relationality and the ways that our bodies are kind of open to others and vulnerable and so on. So, I think, yes, on the one hand, it's about trying to critically interrogate harmful concepts and frameworks, but it's also about trying to construct alternative liberatory frameworks. 

Zeynep (05:42) 

And Susie, the anthropological question? 

Susie (05:44) 

Well, I think for me, I've been looking at miscarriage and pregnancy for 15 years now, and I've had a number of different ethnographic research projects. One that was comparative, so looking at women's experience, the primary women's experience in Qatar, and looking at how culture and religion and context really impact the way miscarriage is framed and approached and understood, but also how it's experienced and then looking also at women here in the UK. And I think one of the things that comes very much out of that work and other people's work, including Vic's work, is how diverse experiences are and how they might continue on place and time and context generally.  
 
And I think my current project, which is looking more at the remains and remnants of miscarriage, again, really foregrounds people's experience. Not only what people say about their experience but actually observing and taking part. So, I was based in NHS Foundation Trust for that project. Really able to observe what was happening in the clinic, what was happening when people's own ideas for what was happening to them and their feelings and their embodied feelings of what they felt was this pregnancy and this pregnancy ending and perhaps this baby, perhaps not, and how those intersected with clinical practices, for example. So, I think for me, it's very much foregrounding what are people's experiences and that huge range of experiences and the complexity and the nuance as people have these experiences and also have multiple experiences of pregnancy and how those are very entangled, interact and kind of impact one another. 

Zeynep (07:33) 

I guess one of the issues with something like miscarriage is that if somebody experiences it for themselves, and I guess this was maybe especially true, you know, 10, 15, 20 more years ago, where it was less talked about, it's very easy to assume that your experience is somehow indicative of the experience or everyone's experience. But what you're both talking about is kind of the multiplicity of experiences within the kind of the broad umbrella. And I'd love you guys to both say a little bit more about that and how you think representations of miscarriage have allowed for those different realities to come through, or maybe they haven't allowed for those to come through. Let's come to you again first, Vic. 

Vic (08:19) 
 
That we talked about the public discourse where this is something that is discussed much more openly, within various channels, so whether that's reporting of celebrities disclosing a miscarriage in national newspapers, women's magazines, and on social media, radio, podcasts, and so on. So, there is a lot more public discussion about miscarriage, which is a really good thing. But something that we both have become a bit concerned about is that that broad range of experiences that we've talked about isn't always represented. And Susie, I think you could say a bit more about that.  

Susie (09:00) 

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things, I mean, as we said, Zeynep, Vic and I have been having these conversations over many years, and I think that’s one of the elements of these conversations is our increasing concern that, as Vic said, there wasn't a lot of talk about miscarriage, and that's really changed now, but as that silence has diminished, we're seeing certain dominant narratives coming through and becoming really entrenched, I think.  

So, one of the things is that I've been working on and Vic and I have been talking a lot about is about how there's increasingly an assumption of bereavement. That a lot of the sort of public discourse is around the tragedy of miscarriage. And I've in my work in the NHS really seeing how this assumption of bereavement really structures clinical care. The concern is what happens first of all when that becomes expected or assumed or also seen as the typical reaction, but also the kind of underlying element that that is the right reaction and that's how people should be feeling, particularly in a clinical environment where people might be looking to clinicians or the practices around a miscarriage to look to how should I be feeling about this.  

And what I was thinking is that for some people that absolutely fit and it meant that they were really supported, and I think that we both think that that's so important that people feel supported if they're experiencing this indeed as a bereavement, as a loss of a baby. And that has been really helpful for people. But I've also seen that in cases where it's caused a lot of distress, where people don't frame their miscarriage in that way. And I think there's a huge range. So, you might have someone who's incredibly sad and upset, but they're not experiencing it as a bereavement or the loss of a baby. There may be someone who isn't really…they’re quite ambivalent or quite pragmatic or frustrated because they see their miscarriage is actually kind of losing time and trying to get pregnant again. I've also interviewed and spent time with people who were relieved at the end of their pregnancy and everywhere in between. So, I think what we've been increasingly concerned about if we make assumptions and if this is the dominant narrative, what happens to all those people who that doesn't resonate with their experience and concern that that may cause additional upset or harm. 

Zeynep (11:20) 

And it is true. I mean, just thinking of the last few years, the number of kind of very high-profile celebrities that have disclosed miscarriages and spoken about miscarriages. So, I guess kind of off the back of that, one, why do you think we've seen that kind of almost explosion of openness in this area? But also, why have those narratives by and large been about sort of overcoming devastation or is that just because that's kind of more newsworthy or that's what grabs our attention? I don't know, how do you guys sort of think about that? 

Vic (11:58)  

Something that it's worth observing is that lot of the celebrity stories that have been told have been told from a retrospective point. That somebody has had a pregnancy that's led to birth and they've become a mother. The stories told from that retrospective vantage point along the lines of my difficult journey to motherhood. And what we don't hear as much about is the stories of people who are trapped in the middle of that journey, who don't know if experience of the pregnancy will result in their motherhood. But also, people who have stopped trying to conceive or for whom birth, motherhood is not going to be possible. So, I think that's one reason perhaps that we do hear more about those kinds of stories because it's less challenging in some ways, those stories that do ultimately result in birth and motherhood. I think there's probably also some sensationalism going on as well, right? 

But another thing to observe is that a lot of these narratives do follow quite traditional gender, gender script. The grieving mother, the mother who's heartbroken and devastated because her pregnancy hasn't led to birth. So, I think for a few of those reasons, the other thing that we've really been thinking about in the project is how people who experience miscarriage as an insignificant life event and who don’t have a significant life-changing emotional response. 

Zeynep (13:36)  

That's so interesting. And you know, as we talk about that, I'm quite aware that I myself have added to that discourse. And that's certainly been my personal experience of miscarriage has very much been tied into that sort of very long journey to motherhood and IVF and assisted reproduction. And for me, it was an incredibly sort of significant, you know, multiple miscarriages, a very significant thing that did really mark a period of my life. But it's, it's also really interesting to reflect on, perhaps also being part of a, you know, social trend without necessarily realising because a lot of our, of course, private experiences also do follow kind of sociological trends in how these things come about. So, it's really interesting to kind of think about that and reflect on that. And you mentioned the project, but we haven't really introduced the project. So, the two of you decided to come together and work together on The Feminist Miscarriage Project. So, Susie, do just want to tell us a little bit about how you two came together, came up with that and what the project is about. 

Susie (14:42) 

Yeah, well, I will introduce it and then I'll pass it over to Vic because the way the project came about was, as we said, we've had lots of conversations. We've both been very influenced by each other's work and have had so many great conversations. We also really wanted to work together because we have been so influenced and we are really passionate about the work. And so, we came together around three main aims, basically. Some of them we've kind of touched on.  

But what we really wanted to do, it's a bit different for us because it's not research. It's actually a series of events and public engagements and opportunities for dialogue and discourse really. So, one was to promote an intersectional research into how social inequalities, for example, impact who experiences miscarriage and what those experiences are like.  

And the other one was really to advance a full spectrum approach to think about connections between miscarriage and other pregnancy endings. And that was really coming out of both of our research. So, for me, for example, many of the people that I interview would experience multiple miscarriage pregnancy endings. So, and that people who have miscarriages also have abortion. So, we really wanted to highlight the entanglements between pregnancy endings approaches, how we think about care, treatment, all of those things are so entangled and yet they're often very siloed. And we sort of think about them. The public discourse is about them being separate. The scholarly literature is about them being separate.  

And the other thing which we've touched on is also to really highlight and explore the multiple ways that people experience pregnancy endings and to give voice to those and to kind of emphasise those that aren't always heard and seen and also to make space for feelings of ambivalence, of ambiguity, experiences of those…making space for people who are bereaved, but also thinking about people who aren't and people who might be relieved. So those are the kind of the three main aims. Yeah, we've had an amazing time. We're almost a year in. It's been busy and Vic has done an amazing job with our next event, which we're all very excited about, which the launch, the opening, I keep saying it’s a launch, the opening’s next week. So maybe Vic, you want to say a bit more about our next event?  

Vic (17:10) 

Yeah, sure. So, this is our exhibition called Presidency Endings, which is an exhibition of portrait photography. And I had the idea to put on the exhibition at some point during a book I was writing, and I wrote a line that was something, I was talking about the importance of grappling with ambiguity. And I wrote some kind of line like, you know, obviously, ontological ambiguity now would be a terrible t-shirt slogan. And then once the book was published, I thought, well, would it be such a terrible slogan? You know, and it got me thinking, what would people actually write as their own t-shirt slogan?  

Because we've had various t-shirt-based campaigns. For example, a t-shirt campaign a few years ago where people wore t-shirts saying I had an abortion. We had an Instagram-based campaign where people, I think, held signs saying I had a miscarriage. But I was thinking actually some of those people will have had an abortion and a miscarriage, as Susie said. But also, you know, I really want to challenge the way we campaign about these things separately and we treat them as a separate issue. 

So, I got the idea of contact from the person who, the photographer from the I Had an Abortion series. And I proposed to her, she'd do a new series, which actually brought all kinds of different pregnancy endings together, where we invited participants to write their own slogans. So, this is a photographer called Kara Toddras Whitehill. And she was completely up for it, really open to the idea. So, we went for it, she asked me to give us 52 people to take part, including yourself, Zeynep… And yeah, so the exhibition will open next week. I'm really excited to see these portraits side by side. 

And so the message is, you know, there's no right way to think about pregnancy endings, but also you can stand in solidarity together, even when there are moments that encountering the experiences of others might be hard, it might be discomforting, and it can be really difficult, in fact. But we're trying to build on the feelings of solidarity, compassion that people do explore each other in the ways that people care about each other. 

Zeynep (19:30) 

I mean, I think, you know, when I when you first spoke to me about this idea, it's just, I mean, I'm not surprised that the photographer was on board immediately, because there's, it's such a sort of powerful idea and it's just, there's something…I think there's something really moving about getting people to A, distill their experiences into something that might fit onto a t-shirt, but actually just really making visible those experiences that for so many people do live kind of under the skin and do live invisibly. And even, you know, like you said, Susie, that the experience is being siloed in public discourse. But I think for a lot of people, those might even be siloed in their own thinking about, you know, well, this was when I was not trying to have a child and this was when I was trying to have a child. And I just, you know, I loved taking part in it. I was really happy to do that. But just even being there and looking through the other T-shirts, I found that so moving, you know, that actually it's, I think reproductive health is such a you know, it's it's so many different things. It's such a multiplicity of possible experiences. And a lot of people go through many different kind of iterations of their of their relationship to their own bodies and to their own fertility, their own reproductivity, even their own reproductive desires, but kind of, you know, to see snippets of that represented on t-shirts and to kind of show all of those holistically, I think it was just a really beautiful idea. And I'm really excited to see the exhibition when it's open and when it comes together. Was there anything for either of you that kind of, because it's one thing to have an idea but then you know, you have all the different people come together, was there anything that came out of it that was surprising or unexpected or anything that you felt particularly pleased about? 

Susie (21:28) 

I'll jump in there. I mean, there were many things. I mean, I first have to just say I've been amazed at watching Vic pull this together because it's been a huge feat and she has had, I mean, it was her vision and it's been amazing to watch her work. It's been a lot of work. And I think the other thing that, Vic, I think you might hopefully agree with me. When we were first talking about it, I think we spoke about having a one-day photo shoot, didn't we? We thought we might have sort of 10, if we were lucky, 12 people. And so, we spoke about who those people would be and we had an idea. It really ballooned because there was such interest. And as you said, Zeynep, we love that you're involved. We love your t-shirt. It's brilliant. And it's, it's, we, I was really amazed at how many people wanted to be involved and how supportive the response was. And so we ended up having four days of…which meant even more work for Vic and Tara. But that was brilliant. And then we were also able to kind of really think about the gaps as well for that final photo shoot. Because I think one of the things that, and Vic has kind of pointed to this, is that we know that there are people who are ambivalent about their miscarriage. We know that there are people, I mean, I've interviewed people who were relieved. But it wasn't that easy finding those people because those people, for some people, one of the people who is involved, they feel like they're not really able to express this because when you see that the dominant discourse is, and everyone assumes that you're devastated, it's quite hard to say, actually, I'm okay. So, I think that was for me something I really thought about and was both surprising and not surprising but also made me feel like we do really need to kind of have that represented because I think we don't often see that narrative.  

 Vic (23:28)  

Yeah, I mean, I think that's why it's been so incredibly open and generous. And I think another thing worth saying is a lot of people in this exhibition hate having their photo taken. You know, including us. We are in it because Susie said we can’t be asking other people to do this and not step up ourselves. So, we were kind of reluctantly in it as well. But yeah, so this is something that people really felt strongly about and believed in, so they wanted to be part of a collective project. And yes, I think being in...it's one thing having the idea, but actually seeing the t-shirts by type coming from someone who’s gone through a stillbirth experience, from somebody who's been through an abortion experience or they’re an abortion provider, and those people really are able to be next to each other and you can find the connections as well as appreciating and honouring the differences. It has been really powerful.   

Zeynep (24:28) 
 
Do you guys want to share about your t-shirts?  

Susie (24:30) 

Sure, I'll go first. my, I can't even remember, mine says three miscarriages all very different. There's no right way to feel about a pregnancy ending. Again, just really point to that it is okay because I think 15 years of spending time with interviewing people, I really get a sense that there's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of...Am I feeling okay? Is this okay? Even as someone interviewing them, they'd say, this, you know, that's kind of really seeking reassurance that whatever they were going through was okay. And I just really wanted to say that, but also because I've had three miscarriages, very different in terms of the physical experience. Different, I would say, in terms of psychological. My first, I was absolutely devastated. I was shocked. It was horrific. The second one, for various reasons, I felt less devastated. I mean, I've written about why that is. And then I think, and then the third, different again, but just that sense of how important it is to recognise variation, diversity, and just that message I really wanted to get across, that it's okay and you should be supported in feeling whatever you feel. 

Zeynep (25:47) 

I think you've also talked about how it's really important for people to feel supported in however they respond to these life events. But also the clinical context in which these things happen can make that more or less possible, right? More or less easy. Do you want to say a bit more about that?  

Susie (26:05) 

Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I think things have changed and I think things have really changed for the better. When I had my first miscarriage, must have been 18 years ago and the term spontaneous abortion was used, which generally isn't used anymore. ERPC, evacuation of retained products. So words and language, I think has changed, not always, but it has. And I think there generally is more empathy, there's more of an understanding that this can be a very difficult experience. And I think what definitely in terms of the NHS Trust where I was working, I saw incredibly good care. I'm not saying that that is across the board and people still have horrible experiences, but I've seen clinicians not only really approach with sympathy and empathy and care, but also being very good at mirroring what the person is saying and doing. And I think that for me is just so important that understanding what this means to this person and meeting them. And, I think that's, that is really important because it goes back to what we were talking about when you were asking about why is this grief narrative so pervasive in celebrity narratives? I think the other thing we have to remember is it's not long ago where, and it still happens, that this experience isn't acknowledged as something very important.  

So, it makes sense that charities like The Miscarriage Association and Sands have been so good about saying we need to break the silence, we need to talk about it. We need to because if you're, you're seeing something as a loss and seeing something as a significant loss and you're not feeling that those around you are supportive of that or acknowledging that it's incredibly distressing and it impacts that stress and distress because you feel isolated and you feel out of step with the world. And so, I think that would be another reason why these stories continue because there's still this feeling, I think, of probably a bit of a hangover from the past where loss hasn't been acknowledged. I think that's, so I'm hoping that we're moving more into a situation where people can be supported in their grief, but at the same time that we can open that up and we can kind of populate the landscape with lots of different stories and lots of different experiences and maybe kind of shift the pendulum a little bit more where clinical care, for example, can be a bit more flexible, not assuming anything about how is experiencing their pregnancy ending. 

Zeynep (28:39) 

That makes a lot of sense actually that, you know, we've sort of kind of, we were at one end of the spectrum of these experiences really being minimised and silenced and not talked about and maybe to balance the scales, the opposite end has now been represented a lot, but there is a huge, there's a vast area there in the middle that might not be either of those extremes. Do you want to talk about your t-shirt? 

Susie (29:07) 

I should say that Vic and my daughters are also in the exhibition. I'm not sure.  

Zeynep (29:13) 

Oh, that's amazing. 

Susie (29:14)  

Yes, so, yes, my youngest daughter is in it and her t-shirt says, if my mum's miscarriage hadn't have happened, she wouldn't have had me. And that is absolutely true. And my eldest daughter, her t-shirt says, teach miscarriage, teach abortion, teach fertility. 

So very education based. And Vic's daughter is in it and hers just says, teach the whole story. So, another education focus. 

Zeynep (29:44) 

And they came up with their t-shirts themselves? 

Susie (29:46) 

They did, my two did. And then my eldest, think Nina's was going to be my eldest, my youngest daughter's and then Nina wanted to be part of it as well. So yeah, so it's a family affair. 

Zeynep (30:00) 

Yeah, which is wonderful and very appropriate. I know that after I took part in it and I told my mum, I ended up, you know, it started a whole conversation with my mum, actually. And I wish she was, I think she was in Singapore when, when I was doing it, but I thought how lovely it would have been if I could have come with my mum, actually, she would have been quite up for it. So, it's also wonderful to be starting those intergenerational conversations. And I can really imagine that the exhibition itself will do that as well, you know, get people talking with their friends and with their families.  So, Vic, do you want to tell us a little bit about your t-shirt? Because we've just heard about Susie's and your daughter's, but we'd love to hear about yours as well.  

Vic (30:45) 

So, my t-shirt said, one miscarriage, or was it? Beginnings and endings can be uncertain. And I thought it was important to try and share a personal experience of my own, given that we were asking other people to do that. And this was trying... Or this was inspired by a…experience I had between the births of my two children where I'd done a really early pregnancy test that showed positive. And then a few days later, my period came and that's kind of how I thought of it. So, I wasn't really sure whether to categorize this as a miscarriage or a late period. I felt like I'd only been a little bit pregnant or was I, you I thought was I even really pregnant to begin with? And so, I've always found it hard to categorise that experience. And so, I wanted to represent on my t-shirt that kind of uncertainty around naming and claiming reproductive experiences, and the uncertainty around when pregnancy begins, when pregnancy ends. And I was thinking as well during the exhibition, and actually during the project overall, about, I suppose what centring pregnancy and miscarriage does in the sense that I'd taken part in a workshop that was mostly focused on experiences of non-reproduction or non-motherhood as it was framed. And actually, a lot of people there were speaking about an experience of a kind pregnancy ending, but a pregnancy had never been established. So, for example, when they were going through IVF and had gone through an embryo transfer that hadn't resulted in a pregnancy. There's still a kind of pregnancy ending there, even though a pregnancy hasn't actually begun. This is a pregnancy that in a way has ended before it's even begun. And so, I wanted with my t-shirt to really try and capture that ambiguity around beginnings and endings and just make us think about those experiences that kind of, I don't know, fall through the cracks, or don't easily sit in one category or another. 

Zeynep (32:55) 

That's actually, it’s so interesting because it was one of the things I wrote about in my PhD, which was about people's experiences of IVF. And one of the things I found really interesting in my ethnography was, you know, we're used to thinking about pregnancy in binary terms, you're pregnant or you're not. And within the IVF clinic, it was all about, you know, it really felt so precarious. And it was like, are you pregnant? Is a little bit pregnant, because you'd have these blood tests and 50 was considered pregnant, but people would come in with 45 and be told to test the next day. And it was about how the figures were doubling. And I think, you know, I called that chapter a little bit pregnant or something like that. And then with my youngest son, I'd bought those packets of, you know, like 99.9 % accurate pregnancy tests and two came in a test. And I remember with my little son doing both of those and one said positive and one said negative. I was like, you know, which was, then, you know, went on to have a very precarious pregnancy, but I thought it was that those tests were very telling of the whole experience of that pregnancy. That was just like, is it, isn't it, will it, won't it, you know. So yeah, I think that's a really, really important perspective to have there as well. Thank you both so much for doing this project, for doing your work and for being on this podcast. Just please, can you tell us, can you tell anybody who might be interested to come along where they can find the exhibition, when they can find it very soon? 

Vic (34:43) 

Yes, of course. So, it's going to be on at the Bomb Factory Art Foundation Gallery, which is in Holborn. So, if you go to our website, which is feministmiscarriageproject.org, you'll be able to find the details there. It opens on the 28th of April, and it will finish on the 4th of May, which is a Bank Holiday Monday. So, anyone who's around London at that time please do drop in. We'd love to see you. We've got some panel discussions going on. And yeah, there'll be an interactive activity in the gallery where you get to write your own t-shirt statement, which we thought would be a good way of trying to get people to engage with what we're trying to do. So yes, we'd love to see people. Please do come along. There'll always be one of us in the gallery to talk about all these ideas. 

Zeynep (35:39) 

Perfect, I'm coming with my MSc Women's Health students and really looking forward to it.  

Vic (35:45) 

Fantastic. 

Zeynep (35:47) 

Thank you both so much. So lovely to talk to you. Any last thoughts from you, Susie? 

Susie (35:53) 

No, just please come to the exhibition. I’m looking forward to seeing you Zeynep and Vic, you, and hopefully we'll get lots of people to talk to us about their experiences and hopefully we can just get the dialogue and discussion going about pregnancy endings.  

Zeynep (36:09) 

Wonderful. All right. Thank you so much. Bye. 

Vic (36:12) 

Thanks, bye. 

Susie (36.14) 

Bye