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The Work and Heritage of the Jews of Koya - a conversation with Dr Bzhar Ahmed
Mehiyar 0:00 Welcome to the Nahrein Network Podcast Series. My name is Dr Mehiyar Kathem, and today we're with Dr. Bzhar Othman Ahmed hello Bzhar. How are you? You're a British Institute for the Study of Iraq Nahrein network scholar, how are you? I am very well. Thank you so much for you. Thank you for this invitation as well this opportunity to talk with you throughout this podcast.
Mehiyar Kathem 0:36 It's a pleasure to have you. Could you introduce yourself?
Bzhar 0:39 Of course, my name is Dr. Bzhar Othman Ahmed I'm from Erbil, I mean, Kurdistan of Iraq. I was born in 1989 and I studied at Salahuldin University, Department of History at Saladin University in Erbil, and I mean, graduated there. Then I studied Master Degree in Turkey, in Sakari University. I wrote my master in Turkish, and then I moved to Malaysia and in the International Islamic University Malaysia, I did my PhD there. Then I came back and I started my working as employee or as lecturer in the Soran University and Koya University, but right now I'm teaching in Soran University Department of History
Mehiyar Kathem 1:27 Soran is is a part of the governorate of Erbil. Yeah, great. And could you tell us a bit about your research?
Bzhar 1:36 Surely, honestly, the title of my research is the heritage of the work and heritage of the Jews in Koya from 1918 to 1951 because by that time, as you know, in 1918 the Ottoman Empire collapsed or destroyed in this this area, and the returns got a role there And then in 1951 in generally, the Jews left Iraq, especially in, I can say most of the cities in Iraq, in general, and including Koya city. By that time, they legally live it, they left Iraq. That's why I selected this this period. This is about the title and about them honestly. I concentrate on the how to call the historical and ethnic studies by that time, especially their heritage and their work, what, how was the their work in Koya and how was their work or economy like influenced on the Koya community by that time, I mean Jewish community, Jewish economic I was influenced on the community and also their heritage. What was their heritage, and how was their heritage? And well, what was the conflict or relation between Kurdish by that time, or Muslims and non Muslims, especially Jews, with the Kurdish community.
Mehiyar Kathem 3:04 So your research is on the Jews of Koya between this period 1918 to 1951 Yeah, what kind of numbers are we looking at? What kind of concentrations of the Jewish community were there in Koya?
Bzhar 3:18 Of course, we can concentrate on the as I mentioned, on their history, especially for their economic life and their heritage. Or that, why I say the economy, their economic life, because if we look at the history of the Jews in general, in Iraq, in generally, or I mean in Kurdistan of Iraq, and also in Koya city, the Jews were very rich and they were very popular. They were
Mehiyar Kathem 3:44 do we know the number of Jews in the city? Bzhar 3:47 Of course, according to the static is by that time were happening? Where has been done in 1927 I can say around 100 - 115 houses by that time Mehiyar Kathem 4:00 So these are houses, meaning
Bzhar 4:03 family, yes, families. I mean families, but not about number of them, also inhabitants, yeah, but the number increased in 1947 during the static is by that time the number was increased around 250 increased to 250 when it was this in Koya. I mean, in 1947 Yeah, the number increased by that time because some of families, as you know, grow up, and some of them got married, especially, and some of them got married with a non Muslims. I mean, sorry, with non Jewish communities, especially with the Muslim boys, there are a lot of stories who Muslims guys got married with the Jewish girls. And there's a lot of poems on that, and a lot of songs about that. Of course, that's. Why their relationship with the I mean Jews, the relationship with the Muslims in Koya and Christians in Koya was very strong and was they lived together in tolerance, and they really we can say that coexistence were very known and very good relationship by that time
Mehiyar Kathem 5:18 in Kurdistan of Iraq. Where were the other communities in Iraqi, Kurdistan, Iraqi Jewish communities, where they were in Koya, they were in Sulaimanya, yeah, the city, yeah. Were they spread out across the whole region?
Bzhar 5:37 of course. They were separated, not only in as I mentioned, not only in Koya, in generally in Kurdistan of Iraq, there are a lot of cities where Jews lived, for example, in Koya, as you mentioned, Sulaymaniyah in Halabja and in zaho, even in Barzan in Koya, in not Only Kurdistan of Iraq, even in Iraq, also in how to say in Karbala and in Baghdad, in Basra, I have found a lot of sources, a lot of archives here, in the National Archives and British libraries, I found a lot of archives which talks about
Mehiyar Kathem 6:16 the archives are, where are they From?
Bzhar 6:19 from British from the British government, yeah, of course, is formal letters from British archives, yeah. Mehiyar Kathem 6:27 And they tell us, they give us a picture of what kind of picture do these archives tell us, yeah, or give us.
Bzhar 6:35 In generally, there's a depends on the situation which what's happening by that time. But in generally, we can say that some of them talks about their economic situation, for example, about the their merchant workers, or the trade of the Jews. And some of them, I can say it's political situation, because some of them, for example, in I have seen some documents that some Jews have been killed by that time, especially in the 15th, by the mid of 15th and the mid of the 14th, some of Jews were killed in the 40s and 50s, yeah, of course, especially during the first during the Second World War. And that's why one of the most important studying about my research, I can say that by that time, once the Jews were killed and threatened, threatened in in generally, in everywhere over the world, especially in Iraq and in Kurdistan, so maybe somewhere. But the situation by that time was different in Iraq or in Kurdistan, especially, and especially in Koya, because by that time we have a Mullah. And according their books, and according to the Jewish Book is, for example, we have an author. We have a writer named Yafa. Yapha wrote us here diary book, and in his memory, memory book says that once I was a child, I remember by that time the Jews everywhere were threatened and were killed. But by that time, there were a Mullah in Koya named Mullah Gora. Mullah Gora is a very known scholar in Koya and in Kurdistan, among Kurdish he was the father. He was the father of Masud Muhammad, a Kurdish great scholar. And he says that Mullah Gora issued a fatwa to protect us. She says that, I mean, Yafa, the author, the writer. She says that Mullah Gora issued a fatwa to protect us, and she ban it according to Islamic religion. And she said, and she said that mula Gora mentioned it to be banned everything and protected the places, yeah, according to Islam, when was this? I can say exactly, in 1943 in 1943 42 also, and the not only issue, they were the great Mullah issue. Of it were also there were a very strong man, very known man there from the Ghafuri tribe named kakaziadi Koya, kakasi yadi Koya, also the son of Hama Agha of Koya. Fortunately, I have written a book on Hama Agha of Koya, according to other to the Ottoman archives. Also, this man was the head of the tribe, or the no matter of tribe, of the rafuri tribe. And he provided a lot of guards, a lot of I mean, bodyguards, or guards to protect the Jewish families, Jewish houses and Jewish choirs. Why? Because they said, and they believed that maybe not the population of Koya, the community of maybe some people around Koya come to there and tries to kill them or tries to threaten them. That's why they try to protect these Jews. And also in the other side, the Jews was very helpful. They were very helpful for the community of Koya, especially regarding economy, because they whatever they have. Have done. They were provided, and they work it in their factory. For example, they got fabrics or everything, but they created in Kuya city. That's why they got a lot of workers. They need a lot of workers and employers in the by that time the economic situation, I can say that grow up, and I can say that, according to my researchers, or to the beginning or the further outcomes of my research, I can say that the economic situation by that time was much better than now in Cohen city because of this point, because now there are not a lot, there are not any factory in the city only. There's a bazar in general. I mean, great bag, great bazaar and university. But by that time, no there were, I can say, more than 14 to 15 factories, different factories.
Mehiyar Kathem 10:55 this data you're collecting, is it from Iraq? Is it from internationally available. Where is the data that you're collecting from?
Bzhar 11:05 I data collected in generally, I can say, for the first time, before coming to the UK, I got a lot of archive. I got a lot I've collected a lot of sources. I look at the sources. How was the study? How was, how was the history of the Jews in Koya? I collected all of them. Then I tried, as I mentioned in the method of my research, and use it oral history. Of course, I use it oral history methods because I tried to interview some Jews, or some some Jews or who lived in Koya before I tried to interview with some old people in the Koya city who lived with the Jews and remembered, remember the Jews alive by that time, they will leave it with the Jews, and they talk at every aspect from every aspect is about the Jews and their life with the Jews. And fortunately, I have taken, or I can say we have taken, a lot of videos during this interviews Mehiyar Kathem 12:12 for the scholarship that you are currently undertaking, your host is at the London School of Economics. Yes. Dr Dr Marouf Cabi yeah. And you've been able to access the National Archives in the British Library, sure, and maybe also conduct additional interviews in London or, Bzhar 12:34 of course, of course, I have several interviews. I'll conduct interviews, one of them in London and two of them in Manchester. I will conduct some Jews or their parents, or they live it in Koya, or they their parents live it in Koya. I mean, they are Jewish, but their parents live it in Koya. That's why I'm talking with them on how was their life and their situation economically, and how was their heritage by that time, who
Mehiyar Kathem 13:06 else has studied the Jews of Koya? Are there other authors, researchers, academics, that have looked at the Jews of Koya, or is this the first
Bzhar 13:16 To be honest, I have to be very how to say, I have to mention some sources here, especially we have before I can say there is a very known research about the Jewish inquiry. But it was, there was very, very beginning by that time, around in 2000 or 11 by that time, Dr Goran she he wrote an research. By I mean, he wrote a research about the Jewish in Koya. But he didn't concentrate very well on their economic life and their heritage life of the Jewish in Koya. He just interviewed some population of Koya who lived or who saw the Jewish community by that time. And also interviewed some people who their parent is belonged to the Jewish. But then they converted, converted to Islam, and interviewed that but, and also, I can say that he used it four or five other books, but he has not used any archivist, formal details or archivist. And also another research written by the Jews of Koya, written by Dr Jamal, I can say it was Dr Goran is a reputation with some new findings, but it was not everything, especially about their heritage and their economic life. Because the important one of the most important point of the Jewish in Koya, I can say that is there. I can say this point is economic life. Of the Jews, not political life, not social life, because we know a lot about this social their social life, I was there, and the politically How was, but their their role, their economic role, was for even forgotten. That's why I tried to concentrate of their and their heritage, because they had a lot of they had done a lot of things for Koya. Even the population of Koya tries to conduct that and to repeat this kind behavings in Koya.
Mehiyar Kathem 15:30 And in terms of, I mean, a big component of your study is about the economic life of the Jews of Koya. And so you mentioned there were owners of factories, yeah, what type of factories were we
Bzhar 15:46 for making shows or from for fabric or for painting clothes in that time? As you know, maybe you bought some fabric is but you want to paint something, and there were a special fabric name is humhana, or there were a special factory named for making blanket or something, even my grandfather, Ahmed, I mean, my father's father, my dad's father, Ahmed, has learned this type position, or this type job named July. July is July is, is a type for making fabric or something to protect it yourself or to wear something. But in my father, my father, by that time, changed his way through the same work to creating sajada to prayer. Or for Muslim, I can say that, and there are other workers, not only for that and this, they created like tables or like something for food or something for and not only for food for clothes, special clothes for Special type clothes, especially they found a special type clothing for women and named chasu camp somebody. It was very known among Kurdistan communities, a Muslim and non Muslim, I mean, and Jewish community. They were. They wear it when they went to the bazaar or to anywhere. I mean, when they went out, they use it this, charge of cambery, somebody. And fortunately, I got this tashic cambery and I got, and I have taken pictures for my
Mehiyar Kathem 17:30 research and in your research, yeah, where are the Iraqi Jews from Koya now? Where are they?
Bzhar 17:39 Well, yeah, it is a very good, good question. Honestly, once they for the first time, once they left it Iraq, they left Iraq to Israel. They lived in Israel. They and even now, there are a lot of people in Israel who lives in Koa, and even their home is collected together and try to their tongues to be together on the Loya Israel. And they said that even they call themselves like Koyan Jews. And even here in the UK, in London and in Manchester, there are some families who belongs to the Jews of the Koya, or their parents belongs to the Jews, to the Jews of the Koya. And I have introduced some people here in London who their parent is, were Jewish in Koya and live it in court. But no, they, this friend is, or them this person is, and they grow up in London, and they live it in London. And
Mehiyar Kathem 18:41 just going back to also some of the the points you mentioned that it by 1947 Okay, the from 1918 to 1947 Yeah, there was an increase in the number of households, sure. But what happened after 1947
Bzhar 18:58 Yeah, by that time, as you know, that every situation belonged to the or depending on the political situation, especially in Middle East. In Middle Eastern country, everything is like the same. But especially in Iraq, there are a lot of changing by that time after that time after 1947 or 1948 the situation were changed. It has been changed. And as you know, in 1948 Israel state were established formally. That's why the Iraqi government issued, issued a decision to every Jews should leave Iraq and they they have to lift their whatever they have, money, gold or anything they have. They have to leave here, and they have to leave, and they have to go to Israel. And that's why most of the Jews left Kurdistan and Iraq in general.
Mehiyar Kathem 19:58 So they left. First, immediately after the creation, or in over several years, was it in a in a hurried way, or is it over seven?
Bzhar 20:10 I can say in for the first time, it was hard way, but they didn't go everywhere. Everybody, every Jewish was not go, went to the Israel, Israel Israel by that time, because it took several times, especially in 1956 and on, and even in the 1970 I have read, I read a source. He said that some of Jews in Iraq in 1917 through Iran, came to Israel, the Iraq and Jews. That's why, according to the source what I have read, I say this, that's why it took a long time,
Mehiyar Kathem 20:52 and this was happening across the whole country, not just in Koya.
Bzhar 20:56 Yeah, I guess, of course. And
Mehiyar Kathem 20:59 in terms of your current research at the moment, were there any kind of exceptional pieces of information or things that you recently discovered during your scholarship that you didn't know when you were in your university in soran, what kind of new pieces of information Did you collect that you didn't know about?
Bzhar 21:22 Of course, really, if I say there are a lot of new findings, whatever, which I occur during to my research, I have learned, or I have noticed by that I can Firstly, I would like to repeat convey a very beautiful joking by that time, one of the people who I interviewed with them named mordecha. No mordecha In generally, he live is in Israel. I can go Israel because, as you know, Iraqi, I'm following the Iraqi constitution, and I cannot go to Israel. I talk it to him through WhatsApp and we talk it to him. He said that once that we left Iraq, we tried, once we left Iraq, and when once we arrived to Israel, we didn't need the support in of Israel, and we didn't need money a lot of because we were rich and we could starting directly, starting working on something. And I really honestly, I shocked I said, how were you rich, and how you could start working on something? He said, because we are, we were rich, but, and immediately I told him, but according to Iraqi constitution, by that time, on Iraq rules. By that time, you couldn't bring your gold or your money to other countries, and you have to leave everything in your country. How did you were around? How can I say that? How can I believe that you were rich? He said, once we left to Iraq, we tried to cook Dolma and kufta. Maybe, you know, Dolma and kufta is middle eastern food, especially kufta is very special for Kurdish cooking and Kurdish food. He said, once we created the kufta inside the weight, I mean around the weight is they put meat inside the Kofta. I said, instead of putting meat, we put golden and then we put everything like and cook it, and then we drop it to Israel. This was about the, I mean, how this was one of the ways of that the Jewish brought their gold to the Israel. But this was only a way, and there were a lot of because, as you know, and I can say that, but even there, they work it, and they were hard worker, because they knew a lot of works, and they were merchants, or they were doing trade in Kurdistan. That's why I can say that their situation was not very difficult by that time, but not in according to this examples of what I what I have taken, I don't say for everybody, the situation.
Mehiyar Kathem 24:17 so you're combining both the oral history methods of research, with archival research, sort of mixed approach, and you're doing interviews in the country, in Iraqi, Kurdistan, in other countries, sure, and the You're creating an overall picture of the context you're researching, and what is going to be the final output of your research.
Bzhar 24:48 according this situation, as I mentioned, for the output of my research, I can say that even during my. Proposal. Once I submitted to Nahrein network, I mentioned it, and I suggested a lot of outputs to my research, especially understanding their life, their Jewish life, and how can we good, how can we get benefit from their life, economically? And I can say that one of the most important thing here we introduced it very active and very no network. I mean, Nahrein, it was, it's very good for me, and it was very good point for me, surely, through this research, the nahrien network and the Jewish life would be very familiar in Kurdistan in general. I can say because, because even right now, I received some messages and some emails. They are asking about my research. What you have written regarding Jewish and I would like to read it, or we would like to know about the Jewish in Iraq and in Koya, I think would be very outcome
Mehiyar Kathem 26:08 do at your university, University of Suran, you're at the Department of History and other universities. Is there much known about the Jews of Iraq. Is it studied? Yeah. Is it part of the curricula in any way, yeah? Or is it just general interest? subject
Bzhar 26:30 I can say that the former head of the Department of History, Dr Stasha Hassan, now is the vice deputy deputy director of the faculty of artists in my college. I mean, in my faculty of artists at Soron University, he did his PhD on the Jewish life in Kurdistan. He did his PhD. He has done, and really he wrote a very good and very, I can say very strongly, wrote on the Jews. And one during his Viva was the, I can say one of the best and the most beautiful viva. By that time had been done. It was around two years that happened. But as I mentioned, if you get the this guy, this kind ethnicity, who has long story in Kurdistan, I can say even you can take only one city, you can do write a lot of articles or a lot of several dissertations, because not only in Koya, in Suleiman, also there are a lot of places named with The Jewish sphere. And even in other places now is very known city, for example, is located at the border of Iran Iraq, in Kurdistan of Iraq. Pension, the name comes from five Jewish pans, Jew and already is condition Persia. This is the number Panch, or pans five mean and Jews during Jew Jews comes from that. That's why I can say that we can do, can do a lot of researchers regarding Jews.
Mehiyar Kathem 28:12 you mentioned previously to me that there are some remnants of synagogues or cultural heritage, yeah, in Koya
Bzhar 28:23 yeah. Of course, during my research and before coming here, I visited Koya a lot, I can say more than 10 times. I went to Koya. I visited Koya. I went to the quarters of the Jews, of course, well, according to the my interviews in Iraq, in Koya, the old peoples who I interviewed with them, they mentioned, and they showed me the Jewish temple there I found, firstly, I found, they told me only, there's only One, there was one temple. But according to another interview, they said, No, this building and this place is also was the temple of the Jews. And really, I believe it him, because once I read and I started to my work, according to on the Jews, I saw that the Jews lived, lived in Koya, in five different places. I mean five different quarters in bafri candy and some other quarters, and they live it, especially with the Muslims, not with the Christians. With the Muslim communities.
Mehiyar Kathem 29:34 The Jews of Koya use both the local languages, Kurdish, and, of course, their own, yeah,
Bzhar 29:41 yeah, especially for my person, as I mentioned, I interviewed through WhatsApp, mordecha, who lived in Koya, and he belongs to their religious family. His father named Suleiman, and they were guy. They guide. They were guiding their community to religious I meant religious paths in that time. Of course, they were doing and they were they went to the school for the beginning. They went to primary and then secondary. But there they left mostly they started working, or some of them they continued their study and then became teacher or something. But mostly they left their study, but they continued their study and they learning Hebrew by in Koya they and they learn it from their temple. Because, as I asked mordecha, when did you and where did you learn? , Hebrew, he said, I learned in the temple in Koya. We studied. And even I said, once you came to Israel, how did you speak, how to communicate with the other Jewish communities. He said, because we use it, we use it Hebrew. Up until now, he speaks with his son. He speaks in Hebrew. He talked to me in Kurdish, but with them, not in Hebrew. That's why they learned from and they were not this example, not only in Koya, even in Barzan, I have read Mordechai. Zakim Mordechai in his book, measures that Mala Mustafa Barzani, as you know, the Kurdish leader. I mean, Kurdish great leader in 1914 in the Sherwin place, in the Sherwin district, Sherwin Muslim district, there in megas, or exactly in the megas, or now it's a nahia, or small town. It belongs to the Soran Kazakh. By that time, there were a lot of Jews living there. And Mordechai Zakir mentions that in 14th Mala Mustafa Barzani provided special teacher, special or facilitator who knows Hebrew to the children, to the Jewish children, is to teach them the Hebrew and guide them like according to their religion.
Mehiyar Kathem 32:17 And how long left do you have in your current scholarship,
Bzhar 32:21 in my current scholarship for living here, staying here,
Mehiyar Kathem 32:25 in the scholarship that you have the two months. How long? How much? Yeah,
Bzhar 32:29 how much time I can say, 40 days, 40 days left for me. And
Mehiyar Kathem 32:34 what do you plan to do for the rest of your scholarship? Of
Bzhar 32:38 course, I have a lot of planners. I mentioned it because I have done most of them, but I have some of them need this time. And I every day before going, in general, I'm going to National Archive and British Library. Most of my work is there. And once I went to there before going the night before, going to, for example, to British Library or to National Archive. I do my schedule. I write my schedule for tomorrow or for the next day. What should I do? That's why, once I go to the National Archive or British Library, and even to Lambeth library directly, I go to my places. And I have seen a lot of YouTube channels or videos tutorials regarding learning how I can conduct to this places. And according to my schedule, I have to collect a lot of data and a lot of archives, not only for my research, for my current research, of course, in the future, researchers also, and even in Soran University, as I mentioned, I'm teaching there, and also I'm supervising a student, including my my student enter under my supervisor, I have helped it seven masters students up until now, because once they knew that I came here and I arrived, I'm working on the national archive or British Library, they asked me to give them or provide them some archives or some untouchable or untouchable information regarding their topic. I asked them, Okay, no problem. I responded, give me your title and your content. Once I read their content and their title, I check it and Google it, not Google it. I mean, in the their catalog, in the National Archive and British Library, I found some new information and send them. And they are praying for me. And they said, God bless you. I said, not only for me, even prior fortnight.
Mehiyar Kathem 34:47 Yeah, it's very difficult accessing information in data in Iraq. Yes, very difficult to do that. Of
Bzhar 34:56 course, of course, most of them, because, as you know, you do up until now, we. Have Not a very national data collection. Of course, we have Dar Al wata in Iraq. But I can I say that? I can say that there are no a lot of or there is no every the title archive is by there. Maybe some of the tireless government doesn't want or maybe some of them has been forgotten, especially as you know, due to due to this, political situations in Iraq, everything has been influenced, but in Britain or in UK, I think everything has been protected.
Mehiyar Kathem 35:33 When you go back to Koya, go back to the University of Solan, yeah. What do you plan to do the do you, what are your research plans and your ambitions for the next of course? Period,
Bzhar 35:47 yeah, for the next per once I came back to my country, I can say, or started my work before everything, I will try to finalize my research. Is my the first idea, my first point after that, after I finished my or do with the writing or finishing the research, of course, I will conduct, I will hold a special workshop in my university regarding working on how to contact the National Archive or working with the libraries or any other sources in Britain. And how was nahren, of course, and I will talk about Nehring network, how nahren network accepted my project, and how was their behaving with me, and how they helped me and Nahrein and BISI. And this kind project is which was very useful for, not only for me, for other Iraqi and scholars, and of course, in the near in future, scholars maybe will get benefit from this idea, or even from Nahrein.
Mehiyar Kathem 36:57 On that note, thank you. Dr Bzhar Ahmed from the Department of History University of Soran, and of course, we look forward to your research outputs supported by the Nahrein network and the British Institute for the Study of Iraq.
Bzhar 37:20 Thank you so much dear Dr Mehiyar for this opportunity to interview with you, and thank you very much for Nahrein network for providing this really incredible opportunity for me to accepting my project and accepting any other Iraqi researchers, to bring them to Britain and to supporting them. I mean by everything, really, it is very good work and very great work. And of course, it will be a very important opportunity for every scholars, every researchers, to try to do their work in the best way. Thank you so. Thank you very much. Thank you.