Transcript episode 11

Speaker 1  0:07  
You’re listening to a new series of the UCL Statistical Science Podcast. In these conversations we will speak with accomplished and interesting UCL alumni who have worked across a wide spectrum of applications and industries, and we share their career stories, achievements and advice. Whether you’re an aspiring statistician or simply curious about the world of data science, this podcast is for you.

Nathan Green  0:40  
Hi, everyone. My name is Nathan Green. We’re very lucky today to be joined by Warren Luk, who’s the CEO of Good Lab. Perhaps, rather than me saying, maybe you could briefly introduce yourself, Warren. 

Warren Luk  0:55  
Hi, everyone. Hi, Nathan. This is Warren Luk. I’m currently based in Hong Kong. I was studying at UCL in the department of statistical science, back in 2007 to 2010, I graduated 13 years ago, technically, I was majoring in economics and statistics at the time. I will say those three years at UCL, were probably some of my best years in my life so far. And obviously, I would have a lot of stories to tell in our kind of upcoming conversation with you, Nathan, to relive and to review some of the the good old days at UCL.

Nathan Green  1:40  
Right. Wow, that’s a ringing endorsement. Thanks, Warren. I think we’ll start at the beginning. So, we’ll talk about your time at UCL. To begin with, what are your general memories of being at UCL at that time?

Warren Luk  1:53  
I was thinking about that last night, actually. And like I said earlier, it was the best years of my life, I guess most significant reason was that it was quite stress free that I was able to actually explore what I can be and what I want to be as a person. And as a professional during those couple of years. Obviously, like many students at UCL, I had built some lifelong friendships, the very best friends that I still currently have, that I meet with every month or so were from UCL, they did the same courses as me as well for some of them. So I really had a great time, not just about academic pursuit when I was studying UCL, but also very enriching, very inspirational life. Those three years at UCL in the statistics department really shaped who I am right now, those three years were really significant in my life.

Nathan Green  2:57  
So it started with the statistics course, then, what did you enjoy about the statistics course? What did you in particular, what did you learn? What was the teaching like?

Warren Luk  3:08  
The most important thing about undergoing statistics training at uni, is the way to think about problems logically, having a macro and holistic view of looking at problems. Because after I graduated, after the three years of doing economics and statistics, I went on to do management consulting, I actually stayed in London for almost three years. And as a management consultant, I was particularly focused on technology and data analytics, which I was able to use some of the more sort of technical skills and knowledge that I learned from the statistic course into my consulting engagement with my clients at the time, I had to pretty much produce some very simple coding some simple statistical graphs, as well as visualisation in order to present insights from the data that I was sort of managing and handling on my job in the first two, three years of my career. So those things I learned from uni, were quite applicable at the start of my career in London.

Nathan Green  4:21  
Yeah, I can appreciate all of those things. How did you find dealing with like non specialists like communicating with uncertainty and technical results?

Warren Luk  4:34  
The most important part about my job as a management consultant at the start, is that the clients that I was working with, they don’t necessarily have a statistics or even mathematics background. And so I guess one of the challenge, which I really enjoyed actually at the time is to translate the things that I have observed from the data set from the graphs that I’ve put together the visualisation that I produced to formulate the so called insights, key messages that I like to tell my clients about their businesses. And I think this skill has been really useful, not just during my kind of professional career as a management consultant, but even for now, as I’m working as kind of the CEO of a nonprofit organisation, being able to analyse complex information and data and translate it into simple insights and messages. That means something to your counterpart is a very important skills that I had picked up from university from doing economics and statistics. I actually didn’t realise how important it was when I was studying, not until I started work as a consulting professional, or as a nonprofit leader that I need that sort of skill to excel in my job.

Nathan Green  6:00  
Yeah, I think when you’re surrounded by other statisticians and other similar people, you only realise afterwards, when you’re coming in contact with people from other fields that they don’t think like that. And then you think, oh, why aren’t you being logical or rational? Or why aren’t you doing this methodically? That’s an experience that I’ve had. 

Warren Luk  6:19  
Yeah, exactly. Because for a lot of times, when I was consultant, right, I certainly had a lot of information and data in the back pocket, but it doesn’t really help to put them all on the table for your clients or for your collaborators, because they might not necessarily understand them. Or they might even get confused if you do that. So I guess, to be able to digest and summarise the insights, it is very important here. And I think this is probably in addition to all the technical knowledge and skills that I’ve learned from the course back then, this kind of mindset, this kind of process, handling information and communicating information is one of the most valuable things that I’ve learned. Yeah, that’s really great. And I guess, in addition to the technical things, and academic learning from the department, and from the university, I was so lucky and fortunate to have Matt, some of the lifelong friends that I have. I like to stress that, as a university students is very important to meet more people. And I certainly did that. At the time, I actually spent a lot of time sort of outside of classroom outside of academic work, and try to get to know people and get myself exposed. And, and this is where my self discovery came from. I started to understand a little bit more about myself and, and when I want to be obviously at first I wanted to, to be someone who can support businesses, who can advise businesses with my knowledge and skills. But later on, after a couple of years of working as a management consultant, I made a bold career changed a permit from management consulting to nonprofit in Hong Kong. Fundamentally, it was a motivation that I had built many years ago when I was at UCL simply because I had the opportunity to meet with people who were working in the public sector who were working in nonprofits as well that have given me the inspiration and motivation. And that was the result of myself being able to go out and try to meet more people.

Nathan Green  8:32  
Right. So stuff you did outside of the course helps you work out what you wanted to do after UCL. Yeah, really interesting. So what were the things you were doing and what were your extracurricular activities?

Warren Luk  8:46  
So very interesting. One of the best things about UCL I think, I’m sure many of the alums and students would agree is a very vibrant and welcoming environment to balance. If you are a student at UCL, you know that it’s not just about academic at UCL, but it’s also about kind of trying to expose yourself to London as a city and other extracurricular activities and for me to do music and singing was a very serious hobby of mine when I was in London studying and also in early part of my career being a performer on stage, I love singing. And in particular, I love performing in acapella, so music without instruments as well as musical theatre. I was the founding member of a acapella group in London, called the mockingbird, which was formed by a bunch of students from Hong Kong essentially. So I have managed to meet some of my best friends through this channel through this acapella group that I’m still in touch with in Hong Kong as well but that gave me the opportunity to actually perform and not just within UCL but also around the for university events in London and also beyond, for example, we performed in Cambridge we perform in the University of Warwick, I’ve been fired out. So that helped me to be my network at the time from a musical perspective, but also from friendship perspective as well. So that was what I was able to do. And thanks to the welcoming and open environment of UCL. The other reason that I thought it was the best years of my life is able to try something that I had not done before. For example, singing and acapella and the musical.

Nathan Green  10:36  
Wow. That’s great. I love the contrast between doing statistics and then doing acapella at that time.

Warren Luk  10:45  
I mean, obviously, economics and statistics, very logical subjects that requires a lot of numerical skills, which I presume consume certain parts of my brain while doing music performing, utilises my creativity, and obviously courage and voice as well which consumes and other part of my brain so it’s shaped who I am. The reason that I’m bringing this extra curricular activity in particular is that even after a couple of years, I graduated, even when I was pursuing a professional career in Hong Kong. And in London, I actually continued with this very serious hobby of mine, I actually continue performing and do these days, whenever I’ve time and keep practising. I think that gives me a different layer of colour to my life as well. And that was built upon days in London as a student.

Nathan Green  11:42  
It’s interesting, like, I didn’t know any of this, it’s really cool that you were able to set that up and make a success of it.

Warren Luk  11:52  
The best thing is, I met some awesome people at UCL who did not just study, they wanted to pursue the interest as well like the acapella group that I talked about most of the founding members and the co founder were from UCL, they did economics, they did law, they did statistics as well, so they are or some of my closest friends. And that’s the beauty of studying at UCL. Regardless of whatever subjects that we were doing. You can always find somebody who share similar interest that you can pursue certain hobbies or build friendship with. I guess that’s very valuable.

Nathan Green  12:31  
Awesome. Thanks very much. That was really cool. So could we talk a little bit more about what you did after UCL and and that you mentioned, you went into management consultancy? So how long did you do that for?

Warren Luk  12:45  
So when I graduated back in 2010, as a graduate of economics and statistics, I obviously, like many of our alumnis, we had plenty of options, one of which I was very interested in consulting. That’s why I pursue that path. I spent three years in London in a multinational consulting firm. And then I decided to return to Hong Kong, because Hong Kong was where I was from my family was in Hong Kong, my parents were in Hong Kong. So I decided to return to Hong Kong through and international transfer of my old firm back then. I work as a management consultant in Hong Kong for around five years in Hong Kong. But obviously, we have projects not just in Hong Kong, but also in mainland China, Southeast Asia, and a bit of Middle East as well. So that was a fun time in terms of professional development, and very interesting as well, to be working with different segments of clients in the Asia Pacific region. And those eight years in total, as a management consultant, first in London, and in Hong Kong really helped equip me with the fundamental skills as a business professional, how to manage projects, how to collaborate with other people, how to talk to clients, and how to solve business problems. And during those eight years, I actually had the opportunity to spend one year in New York City on a secondment as well with my old firm. So, which was pretty cool. Because essentially, in the first couple of years of my career, I had the opportunity to work in the major financial hub around the world, London, New York and Hong Kong, as I was particularly focusing on the financial services industries, but then after eight years, like I said earlier, they mentioned earlier I decided to make of it. I guess, Nathan, you might ask me, why was that? 

Nathan Green  14:40  
Yeah. What happened?

Warren Luk  14:42  
Yeah, what happened? Right, this is a question that I sort of get asked a lot of times but I’m more than happy to explain that. I think UCL played a part in that which I sort of gave us kind of a short explanation before but essentially when I was in UCL I had the chance to meet with people who were working in the public sector who are very passionate about public administration, I also had the opportunity to participate in events, and debating competitions on the theme of public administration and public affairs. So there was a time when I was really sort of getting my first knowledge and interest in the area. Obviously, I didn’t sort of pursue it upon graduation. But after eight years in management consulting, I started to rethink what I really wanted to do. Because as a management consultant, I had to travel it was a very busy job long hours, and then that prompted me to think about what I really want to be and what I really want to do. And then I actually had moments at the time, that was from my days at UCL there were when I was participating in all those debating competitions and events in society, around public affairs. So that was the time when I started to think about and kind of contemplate the possibilities of getting into the social sector of Hong Kong, working in a nonprofit and use my time to contribute to the society of Hong Kong, to make it a better place to make my home. A better place, obviously, is not a kind of a straightforward decision. Because I had worked in consulting for eight years, I sort of conceded that change for maybe half a year, I talked to a number of people that I was inspired by, who are still working in the social sector in Hong Kong, and finally decided to make the change simply because one of the people that I talked to, he asked me, Warren, if you really want to contribute to the society, in Hong Kong, why don’t you do it? Have you actually been to some underprivileged families in Hong Kong to understand their lives? Have you been to a school in Hong Kong to actually try teaching? If you’re interested in education? My answer was no. And I felt a little bit embarrassed to be honest at the time. And then that was a tipping point, that was a moment where I thought, and I were I told myself that I should actually make a change and try that out. If it works out, that’s great. If it doesn’t, I can always, you know, talk to my previous supervisor and boss and try to kind of get a job back in management consulting. And that’s how I make the move. And then I actually just quit my job. From my old firm, I went on a backpacking trip in the Middle East, in Israel, in Russia, and in some parts of Asia as well. And that was a time when I had seen kind of a job ad online from my current organisation called the Good Lab. In Hong Kong, we are nonprofit in Hong Kong, and they were hiring. And so I just applied, I just applied and then when I report returned to Hong Kong, I had an interview and the organisation was taking a risk to hire me as well. So and now, I’ve been working with Good Lab for almost six years now, actually.

Nathan Green  18:06  
Okay, that’s how, you know going back to your old employer then?

Warren Luk  18:10  
No, but I’m still in touch with them. You know, they have quite glad that I’m still doing this. But the key thing here, you know, is a very long winded answer to the question and to explain why a change, but the change is not about one moment is about the self discovery that I did. The extracurricular activities that I did at UCL had sort of steer me towards what I’m doing now, even though I didn’t know at the time.

Nathan Green  18:36  
Yes, all these contributing factors in your life culminating? Well, I mean, regardless of that, it sounds like a brave thing to do. A lot of people might talk about that and not take the action. So I respect that you’re prepared to give it a go.

Warren Luk  18:54  
Thank you, Nathan, you’re too kind. I mean, I was very curious. And I just had to make a change at the time. And I was quite lucky, have been quite lucky rather. Because these past six years with Good Lab with a nonprofit had been another very eye opening period in my career, that I had the opportunities to meet with people that I otherwise wouldn’t have met. In my management consulting career. Nowadays, what I do now is in Hong Kong, Good Lab is a social innovation, Think and Do Tank, we call ourselves Think and Do Tank because we don’t just sort of talk about social impact of social innovation, we actually execute social innovation as well. In particular, we go into different local neighbourhoods in Hong Kong and trying to get people to participate in the community affairs, for example, designing the public spaces in their neighbourhood communities, or designing the public and social surfaces that they are getting from the government and kind of major NGOs in Hong Kong. So, we are like the intermediary, the middle person that tries to bring all these people from the civil society and communities together and work with the government and other organisations and professionals as well. But trying to make local neighbourhoods and community better for the people there. Which is very different, as you can tell from my previous job in management, consulting, or even from what I did at UCL economics and statistics. But there’s one thing that is in common is to be able, like I said earlier, to be able to look at problems from a more strategic perspective from a macro perspective, but also having the ability to dissect information and try to solve those problems structurally. So that’s, I would say, is what I would see as a common thread throughout the last 13 years of my professional career plus my three years at UCL.

Nathan Green  21:02  
So, what is it you actually do on a daily basis? What does your job look like?

Warren Luk  21:07  
Essentially, as an intermediary, we try to bring people together to work on certain community challenges together. For example, recently, we’ve been working on the projects to innovate museums in Hong Kong. Now, there are various aspects about museums in Hong Kong, not just the content, the exhibitions, but also the physical spaces around and within the museum. In addition to that, the connection between the museums and the local community where the museums are situated. So these are the various aspects around actually museums, people may not know because people just go in then look at the exhibition. But actually, for museum to be innovative and successful, we need to consider all these things. And all these things basically are connected to different stakeholders around the community, professional curators, local residents in the neighbourhoods, people who are familiar with the technical contents of the exhibitions, the management of the museums, for example. Now my role, and my organisation role is to bring all these people together, and try to figure out how to design or collaboratively designed a museum that will work for all the stakeholders that will work for people who are visiting the museums locally, but also internationally. And we need a process in place to try to bring all these people together. And we are the person we are the organisation will responsible of designing that particular collaborative design process. Now, what does that even mean? That process we use various methods to engage with those stakeholders and people, for example, we run workshops, bringing all these people together in the room and trying to figure out how to solve certain problems that we see in the museum scene in Hong Kong, we run what we call the street engagement, or basically going to the streets of Hong Kong, to the local neighbourhoods and talk to people and try to understand their aspirations about the museums in Hong Kong through direct dialogues. So these are just examples of how we do the engagement part. But essentially, what we believe in is that if we bring all these people together as an intermediary, it’s very likely that we’re able to to figure out an innovative way of building designing and presenting museums in Hong Kong. Now, museum itself is just one example of many, we’ve been dealing with other topics as well like drainage systems in Hong Kong, and the ground public spaces in Hong Kong as well. But I guess the process is very similar. We are the intermediary trying to bring relevant stakeholders together and focus on those problems together.

Nathan Green  24:03  
Yeah, I can imagine these different stakeholders have different perspectives. They’ve got different objectives. And you want something that’s mutually

Warren Luk  24:13  
Yeah. And, the innovative part about this is to try to, you know, when, after hearing all this diverse opinions, interests and suggestions, figure out what’s the kind of the mutually beneficial outcomes that most people at least, will enjoy and fell engage with, or even can be able to kind of find valuable with. So these are the things that we tried to do throughout our projects. And it takes a lot of problem solving skills and trying to kind of dissect the problems.

Nathan Green  24:48  
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. I’m sure a lot of people listening who it would be a really like, motivated by that. That’s kind of an inspiring tactic. It’s really cool. So in the interest of time, first of all, let’s think about what maybe future students at UCL or current students at UCL, if they’ve hindsight and your experiences, like what would you say to those students? What words of wisdom that you have for this group?

Warren Luk  25:17  
Wow, I wouldn’t say its wisdom. But I do have a few thoughts, or thoughts to share for current students or kind of future students. First of all, is do try your best to enjoy your time at UCL. And for me, like I said, earlier, it was the best times. And if I were to go back, I would try to enjoy even more. So you probably wouldn’t realise that during the time when you were studying. But do try to enjoy your time because it could probably be one of your best years in your life as well. And what I mean by enjoyed as much as studying hard, is important because you were studying at one of the most prestigious university after all, but also tried to take the time and encouraged to find something outside of your academic work to explore, because it will help you to understand yourself better, but also give you the opportunities and exposures to figure out what you want. A lot of people that I’ve seen, including myself, actually, were quite worried about finding a job upon graduation. And I guess my thought here after graduated for so many years, is that try not to rush that and try to really take the time to think about what you really want. Having a job obviously is very secure, it feels secure. But not having a job is not the end of the world. And nowadays, people are talking about having a different kind of lifestyle, like being a slasher, like having multiple jobs at the same time. And try not to be influenced too much by your peers, because it’s very easy to be influenced. For example, at my time, as an economics and statistics graduate, a lot of people want to get into banking, investments, finance, but I figured out, those weren’t necessarily what I really wanted to do. And hence I chose a different path. Take the time to explore the other parts of yourself that you could be surprised, but for me, it was music. And finally, whenever you are thinking about working or being a professional, also think about how you as a person will be able to contribute to your community, to your society, wherever you come from. Because nowadays, when you graduate, it’s not just about finding a good pay job, but also a purposeful job because you know, the societies where we live in the earth that we’re living in are facing a lot of challenges that are beyond the hands of an individual. But we need collective collaborations to solve so as a very intelligent graduate from UCL first figure out in addition to getting a nice job, what else you can do for the community and society.

Nathan Green  28:09  
Right, thanks for that. That’s inspiring. I think that is quite wise. So, that’s a fantastic way to end. So, I’d just like to say again, thank you for your time and thank you for a great interview. And good luck with changing the world for the better.

Warren Luk  28:26  
That’s too big of a compliment. But thank you so much Nathan for having me for this podcast. It is really my pleasure to be reconnected with the department, reconnected with the university, and I hope that what I’ve shared would benefit whoever is listening to this podcast. Yeah. All the best to the department as well. I’m glad that department is doing this.

Nathan Green  28:51  
Thank you from the department on their behalf. Thank you.

Warren Luk  28:55  
Thank you so much.

Nathan Green  28:56  
Thank you bye bye.

Speaker 2  28:59  
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