Transcript: The Staffroom S05E04

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Elaine Long 

We are programme leaders on the UCL Early Career Teacher programme. Why are we in the Staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems faced by teachers and leaders today can be explored critically, and where meaningful connections between research and practice can be made. 

Mark Quinn 

Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come into The Staffroom – from ECTs to academics and executive leaders. We will talk about all things education – the challenges and the joys. So why don’t you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit, and sit down for an hour of Staffroom

Welcome to the staff room. Evelyn Ford. Evelyn Ford MBE. I'm sure you like being introduced that way, Evelyn. We're morning time in the Staffroom, but I'm sure you've had a busy morning already, Evelyn. So, we're going to allow you to take a seat in our Staffroom. There's the special chair. Have a seat. Put your feet up. Rest. My job at the beginning of this podcast is always to bring you whatever drink you'd like to drink and whatever biscuit you might want to eat. So what's your order, Evelyn?

Evelyn Forde   

Ok. So please could I have an oat milk Chai latte. I'm being very bougie here. So, it's got to be oat milk and less of the caffeine. So an oat milk Chai latte, and I'm going to mix it up and say I'd rather not have a biscuit, but if you could give me an almond croissant, I'd be really happy with that.

Mark Quinn  
OK, so I'm gonna have to pop around the shops to get you an oat milk Chai latte and an almond croissant from the local Costa. I'll be back. I'll be back in a few minutes. Can you take over Elaine? 

Elaine Long   
I can, can you get me a hot chocolate while you're there, please? And also a pain au chocolate as well, because I'm going to join Evelyn in her bougie taste she has inspired me. Evelyn, you already upping the quality of the Staffroom today. So, thank you for that. Off you, pop. Mark, you go and get those.

Mark Quinn   
You’re taking advantage now? I hope you realise.

Elaine Long 
But we feel very lucky to have you here today because we know you're in in demand at the moment and we're very excited to hear about your journey and about your thoughts about education at the moment.

 

Our listeners will be keen for you to introduce yourself, so please could you tell our listeners about yourself and your career to date?

Evelyn Forde  
I can thank you for having me. I'm looking forward. You know, I'm going to await the Chai latte and croissant. And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to spending the next hour with you. So, I am Evelyn Forde. I am a former headteacher. But if I just take you back just a little bit, well, maybe more than a little bit.

 

So my journey into education probably started, well, let's start with my own experience of education, which many many years ago was not that great an experience. I was disillusioned with school. I didn't feel like, I actually didn't feel like I belong. When I reflect about it now, I just kind of couldn't find my place in a school that was really, really challenging. So, left school with no qualifications and then it was only when I had my two daughters who are now young adults that I decided I needed to go back into education, I needed to do better for myself and for my for my girls. And so, I went back and I did a night course in childcare just to kind of dip my toes in what's his, what's his education? Malarkey, right?

 

I was inspired by the lecturer on the course, she made me find my place in education. She made me believe that I could be somebody and because of her, I then did an access course, got my GCSEs and it was an access cause to higher education then went and did a degree at SOAS, School of Oriental and African Studies and I then did my PGC at the Institute, so I did my PGC in history and I then became a history teacher. And you could say the rest is history.

 

But that was kind of where I started my teaching career. I then, you know, realised I wanted to be a teacher. I got my first job in White Hart Lane, tough gig in north London, but absolutely loved it. And it was after that, I think I was there for about 2 and a half, three years that I then moved to Hornsey School for Girls as a head of year.

 

And when I reflect on what were the best gigs in terms of being in schools, being a head of year was just amazing, you know, just working with, I don't know, a great team. You know, a great tutor team of nine tutors and then the girls were just phenomenal and that gave me a taste for leadership because I realised that working with this amazing team that impact that you can have on adults and young people.

 

And so I then joined the programme, called Future Leaders, which is a fast track programme, puts you into in a challenge in a city challenging schools, and the idea is within four or five years you'll be a head. I think that was a stretch too far for people who kind of hadn't had that experience. And I might touch on this a bit more during the conversation, but it took me quite a while to get that first deputy head job.

But when I did again, another great gig and another really tough school in northwest London. How I described the school is that it was, it was known as the most unionised school in London. The head and senior team had been removed for financial impropriety, the buildings falling down, standards were low.

 

Everything about it was just like a really tough gig, but those are the kinds of schools that I feel like I thrive in and that's where I got my first deputy head job. And then, you know, there after kind of moved into headship, again, not without its challenges. And then I got my first substantive headship outside of London. I then came back into London. That was quite a strategic move, if I'm honest. I then came back, and yeah, the best gig was leading Coptal school, another girl's school. Clearly I've got three daughters. It's kind of that girl power, really want young women to have those opportunities and see strong role models. So, I was ahead between 2015 and 2023 and I step back from headship in the summer of 2023. Yeah. And just doing lots of other stuff, which I'm sure we'll touch on during the conversation.

Elaine Long 
I think after all that, you definitely deserve that coffee and that croissant. You're definitely not afraid of a challenge and you've definitely achieved a lot. So, you deserve a sit down and to put your feet up. I'm interested in what you said at the start about not really feeling a sense of belonging in school. And then you talked about the lecturer that that had a really significant shift in your life and I wondered if you could talk a bit more about that, the importance of belonging and the impact that had on you.

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah, you know, I reflect on it now as an adult because when you're a young, when you're a kid, right, you're in secondary school, you probably don't have the headspace to reflect on, well, why is this happening right? Why is nobody checking in on me? And so I was in a school that was a really tough school. It was kind of, you know, those schools that we used to call sync schools where you just kind of send, you know, always had spaces. So obviously, you know.

So anyway, I  went to the school in northwest London and it was at a time where, you know, education has really moved on. And so, I say we've got belt and braces around safeguarding, Ok, that wasn't in place when I was in school. 

And so, because I oh, so I suppose part of it was because I joined when I was, it was halfway through year seven because we'd emigrated to Ghana and we came back as a family and we lived in Willesden and that was the available school. And so maybe people had formed their friendships, you know, when you kind of come in halfway through a year, you kind of feel slightly on the margins. But I think it's incumbent upon schools to make sure that nobody does feel on the margins, right? 

So, if you are in any admission, staff should make you feel like you belong, and that wasn't the case. But the whole culture of the school wasn't set up for children. Now that I look back at it, it wasn't set up for children. It was really about the adults would show up, we would sit down, they would try and teach a lesson or say, look, here's a worksheet or whatever. So, it wasn't engaging, it wasn't inspiring. And so when it was easy to jump the fence, because like I say, you didn't have safeguarding like we know it today. It was really easy to jump the fence and so I did. I jumped the fence. You know, I used to ride the number 8 bus up and down Oxford Street and I didn't belong and I know that now and I didn't matter. And I think there's something about belonging and mattering. And so, yes, I belonged to a school, right, because my names on the register, and so I'm part of the school, but did I matter enough for the teachers to notice when I wasn't there? And that wasn't the case.

Did I matter enough for them to? Obviously, we didn't have first aid calling and stuff, but you could still have called my parents, right? And, you know, said your daughter's not in school or whatever. So, that whole sense of belonging and mattering, I realised that that just wasn't there in the school. And so, when I went to night school and I met this lecturer, she was teaching on the course. She’s the first black woman I'd seen or knew as a teacher right as a lecturer? And she invested, she took the time she asked me and the other students questions about ourselves. 

And if it hadn't been for her, I wouldn't have known that I could have done an access course to get my GCSEs. And so, I felt that I mattered to her. She cared enough about me and others to say you can do better. So, that was missing at school but I found it through her.

Elaine Long   
Yeah, I love that word “mattering”, and I think you set a really powerful challenge for people listening in educational context to ask themselves to what extent are their actions, behaviours, attitudes, ensuring that children in their setting feel like they matter. I think that's such a such a powerful challenge and I know it links to so much of your work and passion in education.

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And I talk about it a lot and I look at it through 2 lenses now. So, I look at it through your 100% right, our children have to matter, but the adults in the building also have to matter. And I think with a recruitment and retention crisis post COVID, you know, mental health crisis challenges for adults as well as well as the children. I just think we as educators and you know, leaders in schools. We need to make sure that everybody feels like they belong, that they matter, so that if a member of staff hasn't shown up or returned from an absence, are we just kind of, you know, stressed because they weren't there? And so, we don't even take the time to say, how are you, welcome back. And I think if we can do that, then we do instil that sense of belonging and that sense of, actually, you do matter to our school and our colleges etcetera.

Elaine Long 
And it's safe-foundational isn't it? Because I think in education we get so caught up with the latest piece of research or efficiency or the performance measures and we forget that mattering is foundational to everything else. If that’s not there, it doesn't matter what educational evidence you're looking at, it won't work. I've just noticed that Mark's popped back with his bag from the shop, let's see what he's got.

Mark Quinn 
Maxed out the credit card on the old milk Chai latte. I don't think I've ever used those words before at loud, but I have now.

 

I did hear what you were saying though while I was away. It really interesting, isn't it, Evelyn about how you found your way back into education when education hadn't been a happy place for you? You're probably aware this is Mesro's work, isn't it, from the early 70s, he writes about, particularly actually studying women re-entering education as adult learners and about how that is how you know, the identity formation at that point.

It's clearly a Seminole moment for you, right? That find finding that tutor who noticed you, made you feel that you mattered.

Evelyn Forde 
Yeah. Mm hmm.

Mark Quinn   
And I'm going to invite you now to do a bit of self-plugging because your book “Her Story” it's out there and people are reading it, I'm sure you're really excited about the fact that people are reading it.

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah.

Mark Quinn  
I wonder if you could just tell us what prompted you to write it?

Evelyn Forde   
I think when I reflect on it, because people do say, oh, you know, how long did it take and have you always wanted to write a book? And I think we all have a book in us because I think we all have lived experiences and, you know, our stories are interesting and powerful and can you know, really make a difference. And so I think my book came from my own lived experiences in education, so yes, whilst I entered the profession as an adult, I entered it with a passion to want to really make a difference for young people because of my own experience, which I've just shared, but I don't think, and I say this in the book, I don't think I realised how tough it would be once I decided that I wanted to become a senior leader.

 

So, that entry into middle leadership was fairly easy in so much as a job came up. I applied, you know, I didn't feel that there were any barriers, you know, it was an opportunity. I embraced it. I went for it and it was great.

 

And so maybe I was a bit naive about that next step into senior leadership because, you know, I wasn't aware of the data, I kind of hadn't really scanned the landscape to see was there anybody that looked like me or were there more, were there lots of people that looked like me, but it was again, it was a black woman who was on the Future Leaders programme, she was doing her placement year at the school I was at. And she said, hey, I could nominate you to, you know, be on the programme. And I was like, wow, yeah, great, tap on the shoulder. I'm going to embrace that. 

 

So, it was thereafter really that the challenges kind of came about because when other people in my cohort on the Future Leaders programme, they were getting jobs as a deputy head, you know, we all had the same training like superb professional development. We had coaches, we went on a study tour, an international study tour. So, you know, you could say we were probably all, it was an even playing field, naively, because it wasn't right? It wasn't, and so applying for these jobs and not getting them, you know, obviously you go from one job, you go for two, you're like, Ok, I can work with this, you know, nobody expects to get the first job. But, you know, 18 interviews later and some very woeful feedback. They're not just woeful, but when I think about it, when somebody says we're not sure how sure how you would relate to our community. You just think, well, actually, there's an agenda here.

Mark Quinn 

And these were these were in London? These applications were made…..

Evelyn Forde   

These are applications are in London. Yeah, I was always going to stay in London and so and so it was tough, it was really, really tough to get a job and then when I did get a job in the school that was like, really tough gig in northwest London. I experienced quite horrific racism and I was then becoming more aware in terms of looking around, I can't see many black head teachers. You know I can't, you know, the middle leadership pipeline seems to be, you know, stagnating. It's not looking good.

 

And so, it was my lived experience that prompted me to want to write the book. But I also wanted readers to know that mine wasn't and isn't an isolated story. And so therefore the testimonials in the book kind of add to what we are being faced with. 

So, the book comes from my own lived experiences in the sector, but also as people know me, I'm ever the optimist. I'm, you know, very hopeful. The book does start with my story and then testimonials and then as you journey through the book it ends with we can do better, you know, call for actions and recommendations. Let's just change, let's change the system for better, for children and adults in it.

Mark Quinn   

Right. Interesting because people write autobiographies, and they call it my story and you talked about how your book does open as my story, that’s why this book is interesting because it's not, I'll say, just about Evelyn Forde, it is about others. There's a general fault action, which is why I guess “Her Story” is just a much more appropriate title, isn't it

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a there's a slight. There's a slight bit to it that I think you'll find interesting. So, hundreds of years ago, when we all started getting our e-mail addresses. My e-mail address is Her Story 1, so I was the first person because, you know, if you have 1234 anyway, her story 1 is my e-mail address, right?

Elaine Long   

I thought you changed your e-mail address to match the book and I'm thinking how clever.

Evelyn Forde   
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was the first person with her story 1. And so the thing about being a history teacher, his story. I was flipping the narrative in so many ways, you know, like, I don't want to hear his story. I want to hear her story. Let's talk about what history actually looks like. So, there's a couple of kind of plays around with the with the word.

Mark Quinn   
So Her Story really is your story, right? 

Evelyn Forde   
It really is. I own it, right?

Mark Quinn   
I wonder, what did you learn about yourself by writing the book?

Evelyn Forde   
You know what, I think I knew this about myself because 18 interviews and kind of the stuff that I did go through, I reaffirmed resilience because I think you do need a lot of resilience when you're kind of up against these challenges. So, I learned that yes, I am quite resilient. And I suppose I also learned the power of investing in relationships and friendships because I think I realised how much I needed people around me. But as you're writing, you're just kind of remembering different people and different incidences. And, you know, at the end of writing the book and I have said this to a few friends and colleagues, but I have said it to them now as well that I wasn't sure whether I ever really thanked my senior team enough and I learned that about, as I as I was reflecting on it. I just thought, you know, I feel like I was a really good head teacher, but I couldn't have been, we couldn't have been as great if I hadn't had my team around me. 

And so, I reflected on that a lot and I thought I just need to keep saying to them you're amazing and thank you for being part of my journey in education. So that was a nice reflection moment for me as well.

Elaine Long   

It's interesting, Evelyn, that you mentioned your ever the optimist and your book ends with the idea that we can and must do better. And having read your book and really enjoyed your book, that was my feelings as well. And there's a challenge for us all there, isn't there? Like, that involves us all. We all can and must do better and that's on all of us to do better, and I think a part of that is reading and understanding about people's lift experiences that are different to your own.

Evelyn Forde   

Yeah, yeah.

Elaine Long   

And in your book you said something really interesting that really caught my eye. You said black women do not get to have a day off. And I found that a really powerful sentence. And I just wondered if you could unpack that for our listeners a bit.

Evelyn Forde   

Yeah, so here's another really interesting thing. So, when I started writing the book.
And my publisher is Andy Buck from Leadership Matters. And it's a lovely guy and.

Mark Quinn 
Before you go any further, Andy was my first head teacher.

Evelyn Forde   
Was he?

Mark Quinn   
Yes, in my first job in teaching Andy was my head teacher, so we might cut this, but Andy is an older associate of mine as well, so that's great.

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah. Lovely, lovely guy. So, when you write, I didn't know this but when you're writing a book, you know, you kind of, you might start with a title and then you might start with the front of the cover looking very different to how it ends up. And so, the title of the book was going to be if Boris Johnson was a black woman.

Evelyn Forde   
And the reason for that is because in the book there is a section around what Boris Johnson as a white man has got away with essentially, you know, some of his comments are just horrific, right? But he's got away with it and he can make mistakes. You know, he has a network of people that will just kind of pick him up, you know, I think he either went to Oxford, Cambridge, Eaton, which, where wherever he went.  But you've kind of got this crowd of people that open doors for you. 

And so that's what the book was going to be called if Boris Johnson was a Black Woman because it relates to the point of the burden we carry as black women, right? He doesn't have to carry any of that. He's got this, you know, he's surrounded by opportunities and so on.

 

And so, when I talk about black women do not get to have a day off, it's because, A) If I'm talking about in the sector, A) There's not enough of us, right? There's not enough head teachers. CEOs, you know, in those really kind of, in those kind of top top jobs and so people are always looking at what you're doing. On the one hand, in a positive way, Ok.  I was at a round table yesterday and this woman said to me, she said I said, oh, hi. I don't know you, but hi, I'm Evelyn. And she said, oh, yes, I know you and you know, I kind of stalk you or follow you on LinkedIn. So, I know what you're up to. And I said, yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? Because that could be a good thing that you're kind of cheering me on from the sidelines behind the screen. But then you could have a whole swathe of people who are just kind of watching your every move. You know, how did you get that MBE? How did you become head teacher of the year? And if you make one mistake, what we don't have is what Boris Johnson has, right?

If I make a mistake, I could be out of a job, right? He would never be out of a job. And so, it's a burden that we carry on the one hand like I say, it's super positive, we want to be role models, we want young people and aspiring leaders to see us in these positions.

 

But on the other side, it could be you know, your naysayers who are just kind of looking to see, are you really who you say you are? And that's a burden to carry. And the other burden we carry when we're talking about race equity is that, you know, I could be in a room, other people could be in a room, you might be the only black woman in the room, and there's a conversation about race equity and everybody looks to you because there's an assumption that we are the, you know, the oracle of everything and that's quite a heavy burden to carry. I just say to people, actually it's incumbent upon you to get educated and like you said, Elaine, it's about, it's on all of us. It's on all of us to kind of educate ourselves and skill up and so on, and that burden can be exhausting

Like last week or two weeks ago, there was an event at Westminster and it was talking about racism in schools and it was a panel of young people and I just come back from a conference where I delivered two workshops on race equity and I had bought a ticket to go to this Westminster gig and I came back after the conference and I just thought, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted talking about race equity. I'm exhausted having conversations about it. It's a burden that I carry and I just messaged my friend and I said I just can't come to the Westminster thing. I just can't, I haven't got any more to give today. And so I'm just going to take a moment and that kind of burden that we carry, it can take its toll and so I think it's important, you know, for listeners to think you, know, whichever space you're in, if you're, if you feel like you're carrying the weight of, it's ok just to check out sometimes, it's OK just to say I need a minute and take the minute and then come back.

Elaine Long   
Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you speak about that Evelyn, and I think it just, it really does reinforce that, that we all need to do better in understanding the impact of you know, micro and macro aggressions on people and the emotional labour involved in that, because when we think about equality in schools, we don't think necessarily enough about equity.

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah.

Elaine Long   
And actually, the lived experience of other people and it's a great challenge for people. And I think reading books such as is the one you've written really helps with that, but I know also you know, you talk passionately about equity and your lived experience and you talk about that bravely and we're all the better that you do, but you're also an expert on leadership. You are also an incredibly successful leader. So, we'd like to hear about that as well, I think, because that's another huge interesting part of your career.

Mark Quinn   
I was struck by what you were saying about, did you remember to thank the teams around you?

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah.

Mark Quinn   
And you do write about the importance, that the importance of leaders nurturing leadership and others without bias, you say. Is that, I want you to explore that a little bit for us. I wonder if some of that actually relates to what you were just saying about the burden on you as a black female leader always having to be on it, never having a day off. Is nurturing leadership another part of actually forming the family, forming the allies around you? Is that also part of it? Is it, you know, leaders need other leaders around them?

Evelyn Forde   
Yep, Yep.

Mark Quinn 
So what does it look like to nurture leadership and others?

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah, you know, I've always said this, that, and I've I'll repeat it because I've said it here that I was a successful head teacher, but it was because of the team around me and you know, when I went into Coptol, I inherited a team, and you know, the school had gone into requires improvement. You know, people were feeling quite vulnerable.

 

And I just realised that they needed a strong leader. We needed to get out of requires improvement, but the way to do that for me is finding the best qualities in each individual. And you know, I always used to say to my team, you know, we all make mistakes because we do, right? But it's about not making the same mistake twice and just kind of learning from, you know, where's the learning in this?

 

And so for me, knowing my own kind of limitations I suppose, and a good example would be is that I came up through the pastoral route, so it was never a head of department, etcetera. Yes, I've laid on data as a deputy and so on and so forth, but I've never written a timetable, right? I don't really want to write a timetable. Do I know what a kind of financially balanced curriculum looks like? Of course I do.
But my deputy, you know, his ability to write a timetable like with this super sharp lens on what's going to be best for school, I would just kind of hand that over to him. 

So, I think it's about instilling that kind of autonomy and confidence in others so that they can, you know, be the best that they can be and so that's kind of my leadership style. It is and was finding the best and I said let's look for the nuggets and everybody. So, you kind of find those gems that people have and then you nurture them. Obviously, there's that kind of challenge and support as well. But within all of that is about fostering those relationships because I am very much a relational type person. So really fostering those relationships as well and I think that really served us well. I really, really do and being in a team and knowing what you are particularly good at and what others are even better at, I think is really important. 

I think being open to challenge. I had a a senior assistant head on my team and she would nearly every SLT meeting, which was great. The first one I was a bit like Oh my God, you know this woman is a force for good, a force for good and she would sit there quietly and she kind of nods sagely. And she would say I just need you to explain why you've come to that decision, you know, and I'm first of all, I'm not on the head teacher, but kind of once you kind of get over that and again, that attention to detail like she would, she led on SEND and she knew the SEND code of conduct inside out. So, if I was going to say something or make a decision, have a conversation, she'll always sit there sagely and say, well, according to code daa daa daa, you know, point etc etc, and for me that was brilliant. 

It was brilliant that I'd created a culture where my team could speak up, you know, without fear of retribution, without fear of anything. And it would be thank you so much, I hadn't thought about that, and you know, so for me, that is kind of fostering and instilling that confidence and autonomy. 

And I think if you do it as senior team level, that will permeate through your school because other leaders and teachers will see you how the senior team are kind of operating. And so for me, that is about growing successful leaders, it's about them being the best they can be.

Mark Quinn
You make that sound really easy, but it obviously isn't. What? Why isn't it easy to do that? Why don't more head teachers behave that way?

Evelyn Forde   
Do you know, I'm gonna say I think it is easy and I think where I landed and that question you had about reflection on my book, actually I think where I landed quite early on in my headship was just be you just be just be yourself and you know yourself with those qualities that are about inspiring, nurturing and developing. And if you can hang on to those and not be the big I am and I think that's where some of the leaders in my view, that's where it can go wrong because you kind of, you can see some leaders who you know if they had been challenged in a meeting with, I'm not sure about that, that whole thing, well, I'm the head teacher and I've made the decision and that's what it's going to be. That's not going to be in the interest of the team or the children and so on. And so I think it's about being emotionally intelligent as well.

 

I think that's really important. Knowing when to say sorry, knowing when you've made a mistake and just like hands up, you know I made a mistake on that one, I'm really sorry, I need to do better.

 

So, I think where I landed was I can't be any other head teacher. I look at and admire and respect loads of head teachers and leaders, but I will never be them. Nobody will ever be me. But it's some of those qualities that we can you know that we can hang on to and just be a nice person, right? Just be a kind person. And I think if you can do all of that, then it makes it makes a job a bit easier.

Mark Quinn   
Yeah, I think we just.

Elaine Long   
It's funny, because when? Oh sorry, Mark.

Mark Quinn   
No, I was just gonna say I think we found our profound title for the podcast. Just be a nice person.

Elaine Long   
I was gonna say it's funny. 'cause, when I started my first middle leadership post, I remember my head teacher saying to me, you know, Elaine, I just look for nice people, I employ nice people, at the time, I suppose, quite a precocious sort of 28 year old thinking I was going to, you know, transform education. It’s about about being nice, what’s he talking about, you know, and now at the age I am now, I think, yeah, it's fundamentally just being about a nice person, but that can sound simplistic, but there's so much emotional intelligence that underpins that that sort of providing other people with psychological safety, that sort of authenticity, to admit your mistakes and say I don't know it all, but at the same time, providing enough competence for people to trust your judgements as well. I mean that it's hugely difficult and hugely undervalued in leadership, 

I think we probably don't talk enough about how we actually do that because it's so hard, but when I think of, you know, all the leaders I've worked for that have done that, they've been inspiring leaders to work for because they've done that and because they've created the team and there's a lot that's written about collective efficacy in leadership. It sounds like to me the team you're describing have really high levels of collective effort efficacy. This isn't just about one person, but together there's a real belief that, you know, we are the people that make a difference….

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah. Yep.

Elaine Long  
…to that's gone. I think it's a fascinating thing to talk about. One of the obstacles to getting readers like that in schools is our current retention and crisis. Another thing that really took my interest in your book is that you frequently highlight the disparity between the number of applicants to initial teacher training from people of colour and the low acceptance and completion rates.

Evelyn Forde  
Yeah.

Elaine Long   
So high number are applying but we have this low acception and completion rate which seems mad given our retention crisis and given the fact that we want role models and people from colour to be in schools.

What do you think accounts for this? And a harder question, how do we tackle it?

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah. So, there's lots of research. You know, I point listeners to the NFER. They do amazing research in this space. And you know, even they are at the point of why is this? You know what is happening?

I think there's probably something around unconscious bias application stages, which we know across many sectors, you know, if people can't pronounce somebody's name or, you know, they've got their own kind of unconscious biases that they're bringing to a selection criteria, then some people may not make the cut.

 

There's something for me, I think there's something about when we put trainees, because there's something about the retention rate, Ok, so we apply, some of us might get to our placement schools, but then we don't, we don't continue and I think there is something about, you spoke about psychological safety and there's something about being in schools as a trainee where you know it's going to be safe and I'm just not sure that there's enough work being done between, Ok, you're on the you're on the ITT course and I'm going to place you in a school in East London, let's say. 

Have we as ITT providers, have we looked at their policies, are they an anti-racist school? Are we looking at who? What's the diversity level in that school? Because if I'm the only black person going into a school and, it's not an anti-racist school, they haven't had racial literacy training, they haven't had unconscious bias training and I'm being placed in there. It might not be a great experience for me and so therefore my experience of being on the training course will mean actually, do you know what I'm going to give up? I don't want to complete the course. So, you also see the completion isn't what it should be. 

So, I think there's something around what needs to be done at ITT level and then, so the pipeline is blocked from ITT right through to middle leadership, right through to senior leadership as we know. I just think that you know, there's currently a review on the NPQs at the moment, and I think there's some work that we can done on our professional learning, so that everybody is aware of the challenges that people of colour might face. In an NPQ, are we doing anything around racial literacy? Are we doing anything in unconscious bias? Are we actually talking about being anti-racist schools.

 

I facilitate on a couple of NPQs and I can say that, that is missing you know, so there's something around the professional learning that that we all need to learn from it. And I think until that, then that pipeline will forever be blocked. But more importantly, I think unless the Department for Education, I think unless they can acknowledge A) that we have a pipeline block for this demographic of people and B) that there is systemic racism in our schools and that we need to address it. I think until the government can say, do you know what we need some help with this? It will forever be these types of conversations, round tables, grassroot organisations that are just trying to make a difference. But it needs to come from the very top, is my view.

Mark Quinn   
You know, Evelyn, that Elaine and I both work on the Early Career Teacher programme with UCL and I think we both say that there's an absence of discussion around anti-racist teaching and racial literacy within the frameworks that those programmes are written on.

.
That doesn't stop us, of course, from actually making some of it within the curriculum that we build upon the framework and we have an opportunity to do that as we write our new programme for September 2025.

Evelyn Forde   
Exactly, yeah.

Mark Quinn 
We're lucky to have people around us that can help us really write great materials and really make a difference to teachers as they, as you know, as we acquire this racial that we're saying we strive to be any racist teachers, but you, you declared yourself an optimist. So, I wonder where you see good examples of this, you know schools that really take this seriously wherever those schools might be in another in different parts of the country. Do you have, do you have shining examples of school leaders who are really making a difference in this regard?

Evelyn Forde   
Yeah. So just coincidentally, I was at a round table yesterday with a group of very committed people in the sector. There was a guy there from the Cabot Learning Trust, which is kind of Bristol way and he was kind of sharing some of the work that he was doing, he's a CEO and he was talking about making sure that people, middle and senior leaders get opportunities to shadow him and particularly from marginalised backgrounds. You know, people of ethnic minorities that they can see, and they kind of do the walk with him and spend time and go to meetings. And I can see that and they're embedding, they're looking at their curriculum in terms of decolonizing the curriculum, so, all of that is really good.

The one that I would particularly encourage leaders to look at is Ealing Learning Partnership and local authority and there's this Ealing Learning partnership within that and they are doing some phenomenal work around race equity. They've got race equity leads that are attached to a number of their schools. They train their race equity leads, you know it's an ongoing programme. It's not a one off, it's not bolted on, it's baked in and then they go into their schools and they're working with their schools, looking at race equity and how to support school leaders and teachers in the classroom.

I think for me, I think they're doing some fantastic work and I know local authorities are kind of being pushed out and marginalised and so on but the ones that are doing good work, I think that other local authorities could kind of lean into and say, well, that's a really good piece of research. They do quite a bit of research as well. So, I would say Ealing, Learning Partnerships is one that I would encourage listeners to have a look at.

Elaine Long   
That's really interesting. Thank you. And then you know what I hear from that as well is that leadership really matters. You know the mindsets of leaderships and the way that people in power in in schools are addressing this and fill the urgency of it is hugely important. We could talk about this for hours and I could certainly talk to you about this for hours, but we perhaps recognise that we we've taken enough of your time, but before you go, we have a tradition on our podcast that we give every guest a Post-it note to write something on. So, I'm going to pass you your post, it note and my challenge to you is what are you going to write on your Post-it note and where would you like to stick your Post-it note. We've had people stick post it notes on staffroom toilet doors, planners, on the desk of the DfE you can stick your Post-it. note wherever you like it. Keep it clean though. Keep it clean though please

Elaine Long   
So here is your Post-it note.

Evelyn Forde 
Keep it clean. Ok. Thank you so much. So do you know like in schools and colleges and you have like your home screen and like the name of your school would come up, so I'd like it on the home screen of everybody's laptop. So, you log and  your logo would come up and before you type in your password, what I would like to say on my Post-it note is just be you because everybody else is taken.

Elaine Long  
Ah, I love that. What a powerful way to start the day. Just be you. I love that.

Mark Quinn   
I don't know when the last time was that you heard a school bell ring, Evelyn, but that's our school bell ringing now, which means that I'm going to have to kick you out of the staffroom, ask you to brush those almond croissant crumbs off your lap.

Evelyn Forde  
They're gone. They're gone. All gone.

Mark Quinn  
And thank you for spending the hour with us because it's been an education, it's been a privilege, it's been lovely really, to sit and chat and giggle for the last 60 minutes. Thank you so much. And we look forward to seeing you again.

Evelyn Forde   
My absolute pleasure. Thank you guys.

Mark Quinn   
Our thanks go to Evelyn Ford MBE for sharing oat milk Chai latte and almond croissant with us this week in The Staffroom. You can find her book “Her story” in all good bookstores.

Elaine Long   
Please do get in touch if you would like to be part of the conversation, click on the link at the bottom of The Staffroom web page.

Mark Quinn   

And if you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from, search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of The Staffroom, as well as more podcasts from the IOE.

Elaine Long  
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