Transcript: ECF Staffroom S04E06

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IOE announcer 
You're listening to an IOE podcast. Powered by UCL Minds.

Elaine Long 
Welcome to the ECF Staffroom. I'm Elaine Long.

Mark Quinn
And I am Mark Quinn.

Elaine Long 
We are programme leaders for the UCL Early Career Teacher Development Programme. Why are we in the staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems can be aired bluntly and where solutions can be explored.

Mark Quinn
Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come in the ECF Staffroom. We will hear from early career teachers themselves and from the mentors and induction tutors who support them. We will talk about all things ECF, the challenges and the joys. So, why don't you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit and sit down to half an hour of ECF Staffroom chat.

Quinn, Mark   
Welcome to the ECF staff room. Sally Adams. Sally, we are delighted that you're taking a seat in our staff room at this afternoon. We know you've had a busy day, so you get to sit down on the staff room, take the weight off your feet, have a biscuit, have a drink. What can I get you? What can I get you to drink first of all?

Sally Adams   
Well I'm not a big fan of coffee. I know that's a very unpopular opinion, but I definitely make up for it with the biscuits. Anything with chocolate, I'm a big fan.

Quinn, Mark   
So a dry chocolate biscuit with nothing.

Sally Adams   
A dry a dry chocolate biscuit. Yeah, maybe a hot chocolate. A hot chocolate. If I'm wanting to indulge myself.

Quinn, Mark   
A chocolate biscuit and hot chocolate. Right? OK, that sounds that sounds positively disgusting. But I'll get that for you. Yeah.

Long, Elaine   
I think that sounds good for the autumn season, when the leaves are falling outside, but I do think there's a danger that you may be found out Sally and kicked out of the profession on account of not drinking coffee because that is highly, highly suspicious. But you made-up for it with the biscuits. I think we're at a safe level and to progress with the podcast.

We know you started a really exciting role and we know that probably a lot of our listeners will be interested in the role of research in education, so I wondered if you could introduce yourself for our listeners and describe your role now and the parts you really enjoy.

Sally Adams   
Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, I'm Sally Adams, and I'm the Head of Exchange Research school. I'm new to the role. I only started in September; I'm really enjoying the new challenge. So my day so far, it's been quite an exciting day, really. I've been quality assuring and honesty framework that's been developed by Every Child Matters trust and that's a really fantastic piece of work. It's great to be part of its development and I'm really looking forward to seeing the impact that it will have in the future.

I've also been involved in designing some professional development this afternoon for our newly recruited evidence leads, so that's been really motivating as well.

Long, Elaine   
And what's exciting you particularly about the oracy framework? I have to ask you as a English teacher, because oracy is some I'm passionate about to.

Sally Adams  
Yeah. I just think it's such a fantastic framework that they've developed. It really thinks about everything. There's lots of strategies to use to support teachers and leaders and it's really accessible. So, they've, they've put together some posters that come with each strategy.
It's something that, if I was still in the classroom, I'd be really excited to get my hands on and to implement in school.

Long, Elaine  
So it sounds like a core part of what you're passionate about is that translation of research to practise and being able to bring research to teachers in a practical way that they can use to improve student outcomes in their setting.

Sally Adams   
Absolutely. I mean that's kind of our main aim really. Yeah.

Quinn, Mark   
So I know this means that you're no longer teaching in the classroom the way you used to, apart from occasional stints where you get, you know, dragged into look after some other colleague’s classroom. And we do hope, of course, that you know our ECTs and our mentors listening into this podcast have got a full life mapped out for themselves, chained to their white boards to their classroom desks. We hope that they do feel that they've got a career or future in education at some level and many of them will spend all of that time, devote their careers to teaching in the classroom, and they'll be really excited at that prospect. Some of them will feel that it's like 100 years of winter for them.

But if they are thinking about what else they might do with their career, they might listen to you, Sally, because you've had really quite a diverse career already. So, could you tell us something about that, how you became a teacher and the roles you've moved on to since?

Sally Adams   
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I actually I initially wanted to be a secondary drama teacher. I studied theatre and performance at the University of Leeds, and when I realised that I wasn't cut out for drama school and a life on stage, I thought, well, I'd love to teach drama.

Now my mum was a head in a primary school and I ended up getting roped in to support with the primary school productions and then supporting in the classroom and to be honest, I just fell in love with it. I loved bringing my creativity to make classroom learning more engaging. So, for the next 10 years, I was a primary school teacher and then a leader, predominantly working in early years in key stage one. I absolutely loved my time in the classroom. I was so blessed to work with so many amazing colleagues, communities and families and children.
But then I decided to step away from the classroom and follow my passion for professional development. So, I spent a year working at Exchange Teaching Hub, looking after the NPQs and CPD programmes and facilitating on some of those programmes as well, and I really enjoyed that work. I learned so much about effective professional development and really developed as a facilitator.

And then after a year in that role, I started my current role leading the research school, which came at just the right time really.

I'm really lucky that I now get to work with some amazingly talented professionals. I'm learning so much and I'm starting to realise the difference that I can make in this role, so I never guessed that I'd be in a role like this when I first began my career as a teacher. It definitely wasn't the plan, but I feel like right now I'm where I need to be and I'm really loving the work that I get to be involved in.

Quinn, Mark   
Sally, can I ask you? Sometimes we get teachers asking us when we're leading professional learning and development. Elaine and I will get this. We'll get someone tapping us on the shoulder at lunchtime and saying how. How do you, how did you get the job that you have right now? You know, how did you move from being a classroom teacher to doing what you do now? So, I'm curious, and I think our listeners would be curious, what was it about you or what was your preparation like? How did you equip yourself to move into those research lead roles?

Sally Adams   
Well, I don't think that I would have been as good in my current role if I'd come straight from the classroom. So, it's really useful to have that little bit of time working at the teaching hub so that I could really develop my understanding of programme design and facilitation. But I think for me, kind of the opportunities just came at the right times and it was just about following my passions and being true to what I wanted to do, along with trying to juggle kind of, you know, kind of, you know, work life balance and spending time with my family as well, so it was kind of a mixture of things really. But it's just about following your interests, I think, and being true to yourself and the bits of the work that you really enjoy.

Quinn, Mark   
Do you think as you mentioned, your drama school experience beforehand and then working alongside your mum and before actually becoming before becoming an early years teacher and a key stage 1 teacher, is that experience or the experiences you had before going into teaching? Do you think those are experiences which you still call upon today?

Sally Adams   
Yeah, yeah, possibly. And I think sometimes you don't really know what you want until those opportunities present themselves if you know what I mean. Like I say, I really wanted to be a secondary drama teacher. But I just fell in love with the experience that I was having in primary schools and kind of accidentally, really, it just happened.

Quinn, Mark   
Yeah, I always think that no experience is wasted in teaching, right. You know, everything you've ever done will somehow come up into a lesson at some point, right? Or into an exchange you have with the child.

Sally Adams  
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Long, Elaine   
I think, also important is that that you don't just have to stick in one role in education that you can come in and out and then do different things and I think those primary school pupils and all the people you work on professional learning are probably very grateful that you decided not to go into the world of theatre and stage. Although there are some similarities with facilitation, maybe, and theatre and stage sometimes so, actually use some of those skills,

But here and now you're in the research school and you're thinking about evidence, inform leadership in your area. And I know that the EEF guidance report on professional development is something that's influenced your thinking. I wondered in particular if you could identify one of the mechanisms that you draw on the most and find yourself returned to and just explain why that is.

Sally Adams   
Yeah, that's a really interesting question, Elaine. I really love the effective professional development guidance report. You know it's a really good read and I think that anybody in a leadership role, you know really needs to read it and think about professional development and the importance of that balance design.

For me though, I'd say embedding practise is the area that I find myself most often returning to. So, throughout my teaching career I've attended many training programmes which have been really informative and motivating, but then I've left and I've returned to the busy classroom and haven't necessarily made the most of embedding that practise.

So, as we design professional development and facilitate these sessions, we really need to think about that, and we need to build in opportunities to enable participants to plan for that and we need to equip them with the tools to do that effectively. So, for example, giving them time to develop a brief action plan or implementation planning and discuss this and get feedback from peers and facilitators because we know from the evidence underpinning the guidance report that producing an action plan makes it more likely that a teacher will use the technique that they've learned during PD.

Another one is encouraging self-monitoring. So again, the guidance report tells us that professional development may be more effective if it establishes a method whereby teachers can monitor and record their own performance. So, for example reflective journals. So that's something that I really liked about the Art of Facilitation, actually, you know the journal really encouraged us to be reflective.

And it was a really it was really powerful because it really helped me to come back to the learning and question if I changed my facilitation approach and if I had, what impact did it have? You know, so it's important for teachers, professional development that they become self reflective and if we can do that well, we're enabling ourselves more opportunities for professional growth. So, I think that by encouraging and developing this skill within professional development opportunities.

We're not only supporting the learning within this professional development experience, but we're also developing self-reflection skills and opening more doors for the future. Currently it's something that we're exploring with our professional development offer at the research school, and we want to get better at this and to approve the effectiveness of the CPD that we offer and enable it to impact teaching and learning and allow more children to really benefit from evidence informed practise too.

Long, Elaine   
I mean, I really agree with you in the sense that when teachers get back to the hurly burly, complex world of the classroom, there can be lots of barriers to them, implementing what they've learned in professional learning and equally so there can be some enablers and you've mentioned some of those enablers. In your, in your experience, what is it that really makes or breaks that makes or breaks a professional learning programme in in terms of teachers being able to apply it to their practise?

Sally Adams   
I think it's the tools I think giving them the tools to do that really, really well and I think it's working with teachers and leaders to enable them to really understand effective implementation and what that looks like so that they can take away from the session and they can turn it into interactions and really make a difference.

Long, Elaine  
It's hard, isn't it? Because I was thinking like it's about behavioural change as well in a way is another lens to think about professional learning and that research in itself is not really something you can implement in a way because, you know, research is only at the level of sort of generalised principles so that that sense of sense making has to be done by teachers and leaders in their own setting and can, like you say, can vary so widely from the sort of early years classroom to the secondary classroom and can be really hard to do.

And I guess it links to another mechanism about motivation as well really that you can, and I know that's one you're passionate about as well that you can have those tools in place, but actually if you know teachers are not valuing their learning and they're not motivated, then that could feel a little bit mechanical maybe.

Sally Adams   
Yeah, yeah. And when and when we talk about evidence informed practise, we're not talking about just taking what the research says and running with it. We're talking about using that with your professional expertise and your knowledge of the school or context and really putting that together to decide what's right for your school and your setting.

Long, Elaine   
Yeah.

Quinn, Mark  
Elaine, I know that you want to talk to Sally a little bit as well about the Art of Facilitation because this is a new programme we have to develop our facilitators that Sally's been trying for us, I think now would be a good time to pick up on some of that.

Long, Elaine   
Yeah. Well, Sally was one of The Pioneers of our facilitator focus group for the Art of Facilitation, which is a professional development resource we've created for facilitators on our programme. I guess, sort of one of the things I think makes or breaks the quality of professional learning is facilitators because, you know, you can have a really great programme design, for example, you can, you can put all the design principles in place. for a programme, but I think facilitators are very much the sense makers that that support participants to make that professional learning makes sense within their context. And I think there's also there's the sort of cognitive aspects of that, but also the emotional aspect and thinking about the individual emotions and traits that people bring to sessions.

And I know that that's something you're passionate about as well, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you've used them that facilitated development training from the Art of Facilitation to influence your own practise and that of your facilitators in Yorkshire.
Sally Adams   
We've been lucky enough to be able to offer all of our facilitators in the exchange partnership access to the Art of Facilitation. So, I know that the facilitators in the hub will be looking at these in the next facilitator development session that we've got coming up soon, and we're also using the Art of Facilitation to kind of signpost facilitators to specific units, if they identify an area that they'd like to develop.

As a research school, we've just designed some professional development, as I said, for RELEs and will be referencing some of the modules and units throughout that. Really kind of making links for them to go away and explore it a bit further so we'll be revisiting it in the ELE network meetings that we'll be having and asking ELEs to feedback to the group because it's such a fantastic programme and the Exchange Partnership really values it.

So, we just want to give all of our facilitators every opportunity to access it so that they can really benefit from it and develop as facilitators. We're really lucky to have a fantastic team of really talented facilitators with a wealth of experience and it's actually nice to be able to give something back and offer this for them.

So yeah, as you said, I've been fortunate enough to take part in the pilot of the Art of Facilitation this year, and it's been such a great experience. I really did think that I was a good facilitator, but engaging with the materials in the programme, it's really deepened my thinking and it's opened my eyes to kind of the complexities of facilitation and it's really challenged me to develop my skills and hone my craft.

But I think a real lightbulb moment for me was kind of understanding the difference between andragogy, so how adults learn and pedagogy, so how children learn, because I've spent years studying research around pedagogy and developing effective teaching and learning in school. But I'm quite embarrassed to admit that as a facilitator of adult’s professional development, I'd never actually studied andragogy.

So, we might sometimes assume that just because someone's an effective teacher that they'll be a good facilitator too, it's not always the case. Adults learn differently and so, for example, you know, adult learners require more autonomy over their learning, and facilitators must really understand and respect the participants motivations for learning. So the unit on andragogy got you was it was really insightful and it really shifted my perspective when facilitating adult learning and I really recommend the programme, I think no matter how experienced you are as a facilitator, there's definitely something to take away from each of the topics and they don't take long to complete either, which is, you know, a huge bonus when you're a busy teacher or school leader.

Long, Elaine 
That's really good to hear, Sally and I agree with you. I think so often people underestimate what skills are involved in facilitation because it’s a really complex job and it's something I'm sure Mark would agree. It's something I always feel like I'm learning and every time I'm in a new context, what I've got to learn, I need to learn a bit more because it's never the same because you're because you're working with different groups of individuals. But I agree with you. I'd really challenge that assumption that just because you're a great teacher at school, it's obviously crossover and skills you bring, but facilitation is a different field, really. So, it's important to remember that as well.

Quinn, Mark  
Yeah, I think this is. I'm really glad you shed light on this and Sally, because I think it is increasingly a message that we find ourselves discussing with facilitators as we visit sessions. And I think it's a really important insight. I think it's also interesting that despite, I mean I think it's right to draw a distinction between pedagogy and andragogy. I think it's also right to remember that our ECF programme, we've got teachers in that programme who are teaching early years and we've got teachers in that programme who are teaching post 16 and I think it's a fair enough point to make that teaching 17 and 18 year olds is not the same thing as teaching four and five year olds, right?

There's those 17, 18 year olds bring also bring something more to the classroom than perhaps a four year old, does and you do have to engage with their motivation as well. You do have to think about what they bring and the choices that they need to make.

So, I think I think there's learning from that for us as well, when we are talking to ECTs and of course the other sort of set of listeners we have on this programme are mentors and mentors fall into that really interesting position, don't they? Because although they are school based, they are also teacher educators. One could call them teacher educators, right? So, mentors need to engage with how adults learn. In this case, their mentees, their ECTs and you know, and the different rhythms of learning as they go through a year, their ups and their downs and the things that they're strong with, the things that they need support with.

So, there's a huge wealth of material here which I think that it's right that we begin to grapple with within this programme of the Art of Facilitation, but also, I think within our mentoring programme and also even in our ECT programme.

That was kind of long winded way of getting to your own specialism, Sally, which is around early years because it is a criticism. We do find it, actually we do have people working in early years on our programme who occasionally say to us they think that the ECF programme really isn't so much about early years. It's more about secondary or it's more about upper primary, that some of the things that we might be suggesting or that the framework might suggest are good things to do aren't always good things to do in an early year setting.

So, first of all, has that been your experience? Do you sympathise that sentiment? And how have you in your work up in exchange dealt with that kind of response you know dealt with that issue that you get from earlier teachers who need the programme a bit translated for them?

Sally Adams   
Yeah. Yeah, I do think that early years practitioners are sometimes a little bit overlooked. You know, child development is very complex and the early years is such an important time. Practitioners really need, you know, real specialist knowledge and skills and the guide to effective professional development in the early years, it really highlights the importance of appropriate professional development opportunities for early years staff, you know, to make sure that they're offering that quality learning and development experience As for all children.

But still, early years practitioners often find themselves setting staff meetings and professional development programmes, feeling like it's not really benefiting them. That being said, I do think it's really important that all school staff understand the different phases. You know, you need to know where the children have come from and where they're going to so that you can really help to make that a smooth transition and you never know where you're going to end up next year.
As someone who's moved between phases quite a lot. I've always felt that I wanted to make sure that I wasn't limiting my professional development to one phase.

Quinn, Mark   
Yeah.

Sally Adams   
But I think there's still some work to be done to support teachers and leaders to really understand the importance of early years and all school staff agree that, you know, early years is a magical place and it's really hard work. But I'm not sure everyone always recognises the specialist knowledge and skill that you need to be effective in the early years.

So, as you said, the ECF is broken down into primary and secondary with activities for each, but it takes a facilitator who really understands early years to be able to add context to the material so that they can really benefit early years teachers. So, we support each other quite a lot in the exchange partnership and you know I'll often work with ECF or the ITT providers looking at what this looks like for really years and making sure that we've got the right people facilitating on the programme so that they can offer those real life examples.

Quinn, Mark   
Sally, would you say there are advantages or disadvantages for facilitated groups or one of our clusters, for example, would you say it would be a good idea or not to have early years practitioners all in one cluster are separated from that's a primary cluster?

Sally Adams   
I think there's pros and cons because although you could give them more kind of specialist and more bespoke professional development session for early years teachers specifically.
You're kind of limiting them then to the early years and I think I think you've got to keep an open mind.

Quinn, Mark  
Yeah.

Sally Adams   
I think as an as an early years teacher, you've got to be quite proactive as well in your own professional development. So, if you sat in professional development sessions thinking about, you know, and you that this isn't for me. Think about what it looks like in early years. So, rather than just switching off and thinking, you know, it's not for me. Ask yourself, what can I compare this to in early years? Because when it comes to pedagogy and principles, there's not a lot of difference, and actually there's a lot that the rest of the teachers staff can learn from earlier staff as well.

So there seems to be a lot of professional development at the moment around adaptive teaching, and this is something that early years practitioners have been doing well for a really long time. So, yeah, it's about understanding how teachers can work together and not limiting yourself to one phase, but thinking of the bigger picture if that makes sense.

Quinn, Mark
Yeah, I mean the ECF course is written as a generic framework and I think it's right to try to hold on to what the advantages of that are. You know, what's the point of having a generic framework or one of the points is to suggest that a teacher's life is not static within one phase, actually. People do move between primary and secondary. People certainly move up and down the primary key stages and from early years into key stage one, for example.
And of course, if you're in secondary, you're teaching usually across all you know, the two or three key stages which are there.

So, I think it's right to remember that a teacher isn't just teaching one phase or one year group. They're teaching really, really a pretty wide range and that even if they're not doing it right now, it's something they're going to be doing at some point in the future, right?

Sally Adams   
Yeah, absolutely. We do need to have more awareness of other areas in school. I think it's I've worked with people before and I've said, but I'm an early age teacher. But you might not be in the future and like I said, we need to think of the bigger picture. There's not always a lot out there specifically for early years teachers.

But it was great to see that the EEF have developed an early year’s evidence store and that shares kind of specific research evidence for early year staff along with summaries and tools and a really fantastic bank of exemplification videos too. So yeah, I think that's something that the early years teachers and practitioners really should be aware of because it's great to have a resource that's specifically for early year staff.

Quinn, Mark   
So, having said all of that, Sally, you did step away from your early years classroom.

Sally Adams   
Yeah.

Quinn, Mark   
And so I'm thinking I'm curious as to what the future holds for you now. What your next steps might be,

Sally Adams   
Right now I'm really enjoying what I'm doing. You know, I'm feeling really excited about the opportunity to really grow the research school, you know, it's only our second year this year and really build networks and to develop evidence informed practise in our region. But I like to keep an open mind. I can't see myself staying out of the classroom forever. I really do miss working with the children.

Right now, things are good and I'm really enjoying my current challenges and what I'm learning.

Long, Elaine   
Well, Sally, we give every guest on our podcast a post it note to write some advice on. So, before we end today, and you can take your hot chocolate away for a nice autumnal walk. We would like to know what would you like to write on your post it  and where would you stick it?

Sally Adams   
Ok. I would write on my post it note, to schedule a little bit of time every now and then to just take a step back from your day-to-day tasks and really find time to think and reflect and focus on your professional development. I think teachers really need to invest in themselves because they deserve it and so do the children that they work with.

I would share that post it note with as many teachers as I possibly could. It's great to have that chance to really reflect and refocus.

Long, Elaine   
Maybe that will go on the staffroom wall, in the toilets, on teachers planners, all over the school. I'm with you on that one. I think that's a good one.

Sally Adams   
Absolutely, yeah.

Quinn, Mark   
Sally, we sent our listeners a challenge at the beginning of this podcast episode. Which was to pick up any clues that we were dropping along the way about your other career. About the whole other Sally Adams, which is out there in the in the big wide world. Would you like to let us into your little secret?

Sally Adams   
Yes, I will. So, I used to be in a steps tribute band, which was great, great fun. We performed all over the country and abroad.

You know, and just had so much fun. I'm not as young and fit as I used to be. So, it was a relief when they said that the band was coming to an end. But it was a fab experience and I think working in education, you know, it's an absolute privilege and it's so rewarding. But we all know how challenging it can be and it can be quite stressful at times.

So, you've got to make sure that you put some time aside to do the things that you enjoy, your hobbies, etcetera, so that you can really switch off and look after yourself and your mental health, because that's really important in this job. I feel like my steps tribute band really gave me a space to do that.

Quinn, Mark   
Well, that the bell might have rung on your steps career. Sally and I can hear it ringing now. So, it's telling us that we've come to the end of our time together in the ECF Staffroom for today. We thank you very much for coming in and taking a seat and drinking our hot chocolate for us. I'm not sure anybody else wanted that hot chocolate. But you're very brave.

Quinn, Mark   
And thank you and we'll see you again very soon, I'm sure.

Long, Elaine   
Thanks Sally.

Sally Adams   
Thank you very much. Thanks for inviting me.

Quinn, Mark
Our thanks go to Sally Adams for sharing a chocolate biscuit and a hot chocolate with us this week in the ECF Staffroom.

Elaine Long
Please do get in touch with us if you think you would like to chat about your ECF experience. In the meantime, do join us for a biscuit and a chat with another colleague in the ECF Staffroom.

Mark Quinn
If you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from. Search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of the ECF Staffroom, as well as more podcasts from the IOE.

Elaine Long
Finally, a quick favour before you go. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we would really appreciate it if you could give the IOE podcast a rating, Five stars would be nice if you're enjoying the show, and that will help us reach more people who are interested in hearing what the ECF Staffroom is all about.

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