Transcript: ECF Staffroom S04E01

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IOE announcer 
You're listening to an IOE podcast. Powered by UCL Minds.

Elaine Long 
Welcome to the ECF Staffroom. I'm Elaine Long.

Mark Quinn
And I am Mark Quinn.

Elaine Long 
We are programme leaders for the UCL Early Career Teacher Development Programme. Why are we in the staffroom? We are here because this is where the best professional learning conversations always take place. This is where problems can be aired bluntly and where solutions can be explored.

Mark Quinn
Over the course of this series, we will hear the voices of different colleagues as they come in the ECF Staffroom. We will hear from early career teachers themselves and from the mentors and induction tutors who support them. We will talk about all things ECF, the challenges and the joys. So, why don't you enjoy a coffee with us, perhaps even grab a biscuit and sit down to half an hour of ECF Staffroom chat.

Welcome to the ECF staff from Raf Alleyne. It's great to see you, actually, Raf, we haven't met for quite a long time now. I think you've had a busy week. I understand. So, you're in our staff room, so you get to sit down. it's my job to bring you a nice drink if you wish for one. a biscuit if that's what you like.

What can I get you?

Rafael Alleyne 
I like the malted milks.

Mark Quinn
Very old school. Yeah.

Rafael Alleyne 
And I try to stay away from caffeine at this time in the day. I'm not a massive coffee drinker. And if I do, I've got to get the timing right. So, I'm all about the herbal teas.

Mark Quinn
Herbal tea! I think we got some fancy herbal teas in the back of the cupboard there. Elaine forgot to drink hers last month, so I think we'll find one for you there. No problem.

Elaine Long
Oh, I'm a Yorkshire tea person, not a herbal tea. But I did know Raf, with his exquisite taste, is going to push us to the limit in terms of our tea selection, but I'm sure we can whisk up a herbal tea. Raf, we're so pleased to have you here. Can you introduce yourself for our listeners and tell us about your current role?

Rafael Alleyne 
Okay. Yes. I'm Rafael Alleyne. I'm an Assistant Principal here at the London Screen Academy in Islington, North London. My role is quite broad, it's everything in terms of inclusion in the traditional sense in education. So, I line manage the special educational needs area, a SENCO and a team, our pastoral team as well. Here at LSA we have pastoral and professional development leads who are like heads of year.
I also like, manage the admission marketing and outreach team which is a big part of London Screen Academy's work here, inclusion. So, it's, it's under me and attendance and behaviour, the traditional stuff as well.

Elaine Long
I should be honest with our listeners and say we're, we're old colleagues as well. So, we know each other well. We've worked with each other for a long time. And one of the things I know is that you are one of the most passionate, school teachers and leaders that that I've worked with. I wondered if you could just tell me a bit about what brings you the most joy in your role.

Rafael Alleyne 
Thank you for that, I appreciate it. I would say it's always been the same. It's always been about that idea of development. It sounds really simple at first, but I just love seeing anything, anyone just move from A to B. I think it's been a big part of why I got into teaching. You know, you could apply the same to things outside of education, like coaching, I'm always fascinated by it.

I think I take the responsibility quite seriously, or even when I look at other leaders, whether they be teachers, coaches, managers. I think it's a really important thing to step up for, you’re, taking responsibility for someone else or other people. So, I think in my day to day, particularly here at LSA, I mean, it's so tangible that we've got young people looking to make their way into the industry.

I do love film and TV, but even if it wasn't about film and TV, I just love the idea of, you know, getting them ready for this real thing. You know, it's such a great course for them. They go on to do amazing things, whether it be going into the industry straight away or going to university, but just playing a part of that, particular with the team that I have is really, really, like exciting, and it I feel quite strongly about that. So yeah.

Elaine Long
And I visited to just go and I know what an amazing place it is, but I think it might be quite hard to imagine for our listeners, can you just describe for them how it's a bit different to a sort of average secondary school?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah. So, we're a sixth form, first of all. We do a Post 16 course, which is a UAL level three diploma extended diploma and diploma. We also run an A-level course alongside that as well. So, they get to pick an A-level. But the students specialise in one of like four areas. So, we have a craft pathway which is like makeup, costume, art direction and like set design.

We do a technical pathway, which is like your traditional light, camera, sound work, as well, that’s quite a popular one. And we have post-production where students specialise in animation, VFX, editing and, we've got a new production pathway which is a little bit more like live TV working on set. That's quite a new one that we've delivered as well.

So, they are some of the core, subjects as well> they learn about storytelling. they learn about script writing, they learn about screen business, copyright, those kind of things as fundamentals. But yeah, that's the course and the whole school. I mean, we've got traditional classroom spaces, but we've got studios here and all sorts, is very specialist for those, subjects that we run.

Elaine Long
That's amazing. Mark, wish your life as exciting as a history teacher.

Mark Quinn
Every bit as exciting as that. I guess I should say, if people can't tell already that, the quality of Raf’s camera and the quality of his microphone, put us to shame, Elaine. So that's why he's come prepared to this podcast this afternoon. Raf, we have a theme, for this episode, it's all about equality, diversity and inclusion.

I know that you are particularly interested in this, so, easy question first. How would you define equality, diversity and inclusion?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah. So, because, very recently, in some staff CPD, we were talking about the exact same thing. The reason why we're talking it before we get to definitions was, it was about appreciating that they are different actually. And interestingly, when we set a task for staff, you know, to go away and come up with their definitions and what they thought was different, I did hear one staff member say literally the opposite, like, oh, they're all the same thing, really and then I was like, oh, super interesting because this is why we do this. 

Anyway, after ten minutes, they weren't saying it was the same thing, but it was just interesting because that was the point I was trying to prove. It's very easy for an organisation to merge it together, because when you merge it together, there's less to actually think about.

But if you're doing that, you're not doing it justice. So, I think I'll start with, I guess diversity really. I think when we talk about diversity in this context, you know, when we're talking about, I guess, a range and it depends how far you want to go with that range. What we are talking about, you know, in simple terms, lots of different people, you know, lots of different people that have a function.

I think the main thing is that function, we're talking about gender, we're talking ethnicity. You know, we're talking about sexuality, we're talking about religion. And you know, it's not easy to achieve diversity is highest point, I would say, particularly in the society. I think the key is being aware of what you have, what you don't have.

I think not enough people do that. Sometimes people just settle for, ethnicity and I leave it there and they think they’ve done enough and even then, within ethnicity, they're probably not really doing it. They're probably just looking at, you know, who looks different. We have, black people, we have white people. That's probably enough. You know, they don't really think about anything else.

I think one of the things I've been trying to push for with diversity is the idea of, the function that it plays, it plays a role. And we've been very explicit with our incoming students about this as well, because when you talk about diversity, it can feel very fluffy at first and it's a nice thing because, you know, everyone's there.

But actually the whole point is when you have people from different walks of life, you have a better chance of being successful, whether that be solving problems, creativity that, that is the point. You know, I'm a science teacher by trade and in biology, as an example, we talk about genetic diversity for the sake of actual survival.

We talk about the opposite of that, leading to, you know, species that don't even exist anymore. They get wiped out and I think I'd like to see particularly today's society, people talking about diversity in that more functional way. So, because I think when you talk about it in a functional way, with less emotion, I think you get more buy in and you do need buy you need people to understand it, I think.

So that's just diversity within itself. I think inclusion, is and this is why you have to separate the two, because I think with organisations and we've been very open about that here at LSA. you can talk about diversity and, you know, put a lot of effort into that. You can have a strategy for that. Hiring processes, recruitment processes with students.

But if you don't think about what existence is like for those individuals on the other side of that journey, then actually there is no inclusivity. You haven't thought about inclusion, you just thought about the numbers. So inclusion for me is, I mean, there's a there's a whole spectrum of things that you could look at. But first and foremost, I think there has to be a consideration of what is it like for those individuals in that environment or in that community? What is their experience? Do they have a voice? Do they have, equal access? What barriers do they have in front of them? 

By answering those questions, you'll probably be an inclusive or in a way of being inclusive. So, it's more than the numbers. I'm with the E, and I think, you know, everyone bounces between equality and equity and sometimes probably don't put enough effort into like breaking those two things down.

I guess when we're talking about equality, we're either talking about equal access to something or we're talking about so what's what opportunity or to well, the outcome on the other side of the opportunity, and it's easy to say like everyone's had access like, you know, free education. 

But if you look at the stats over the last, you know, how many years it will show you that the outcomes are very different for different groups. And you could argue if you look closely at the factors that affect that, you know, there's an issue of equity and everyone has to accept that.

So, equity being, okay, there is a lack of I guess, equality. But what are those barriers for some people compared to others? What support do some people need in comparison to others? And I think equity is a really difficult one because everyone has to be on the same page about so many things. You have to be on the same page about, first of all, who's in need or deserving of that support, and then you have to be in agreement about what does that support even look like?

And I think, even when I say out loud now, like, it's so easy to breeze past that conversation as an organisation and not put time into it because it's a really difficult conversation, I would argue, is probably one of the most difficult conversations that you could have in this entire, subject of EDI, because you probably accept at the start that no one's either going to agree or be on the same page about what those support mechanisms are.

Also, everyone's going to be working. Not everyone, but a lot of people will be blind to the need for it in the first place. So, I feel like, you know, I'll come back to equity probably later because I think it will come up again. but yeah, hopefully those, definitions are useful.

Mark Quinn
Absolutely useful. And I actually really do love the way you reorganise the letters. I mean, it's a bit unfortunate that it's spelled DIE. But actually, I think I think, in fact, that's really the most logical explanation of those definitions that I've actually heard in one long sentence. Raf seriously, very brilliant. And what really resonates for me is this whole idea that you're right, that diversity isn't just something which is a nice to have, but it's an essential to have.

It's, as you pointed out, even from an evolutionary, point of view. This is something which is essential for survival and we're not going to be as, effective or successful as society if we are only, if we are exclusive, I guess. So, I love that whole sequence of those definitions.
It's also really, really interesting, though, isn't it? That, as you said, that not everyone actually starts from the same place? It's not just, you know, people have different levels of understanding, different levels of lived experience. Of course, that's true. But actually, not everyone starts for the same values either. Sadly, that's true even in our profession where we might think that everyone feels the same way about social justice or about development or about human, you know, potential and growth, actually, we don't all start from the same place and funny, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you this, maybe in particular for the industry that you're in, you know, the entertainment industry, film and television in particular that's notoriously a cutthroat, industry, right? So, how do you prepare the young people in your school in this inclusive environment, for an environment they're going to go into, which is perhaps less inclusive and bit more highly competitive?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think since literally day one, that's been, it's always been like a healthy tension actually. Like I've been fascinated by these two worlds coming together for lots of reasons. Like, you know, the film and TV world is one where, you know, you get things done, you want something, you know, you throw money at it, you get it done.

Education doesn't really work that way. So, it's been so interesting for me to see how we sort of navigate with each other. but I think with this subject, it's been super interesting because it just, it's about honesty is about everyone being honest. But then within honesty, it's levels of honesty as well. 

So, it's like, first of all, acknowledge. Yes. There are horror stories out there really when it comes to film and TV. We've seen issues of gender, ethnicity, all sorts. So that's out there. That has to be embraced because there's new stories to back that up. But then the next level under that is, what is it like right now? And then our students have had to go through a system of like work experience, for example. We've had to, you know, look at our alumni and we've had to learn from those stories as well. I will say that, you know, it definitely looks like there's a lot of effort and things change slowly, as everyone says, we can definitely see that. The one thing I would say is, you have to be able to call things out and be brave enough to do it as well.

So, you know, diversity as an example, I don't think, other than maybe writing, I don't think there's an appreciation of the function of it when it comes to film and TV industry generally. You could say that, yes. You know, there's some stories out there that could only be written by certain people, maybe, because of who they are and their identity.

But I would say, for the majority of cases in film and TV, diversity is probably playing the function of, maybe you can win an award if you have diversity on set, for example, or maybe there's some kind of other sort of benefit on a business level by diversity, which I it wouldn't just be film and TV and it's other all other, industries out there that probably do a similar thing.

And maybe those things started with the right intention, you know, like, have an incentive. You know, we're going to have more people, but actually it hasn't gone beyond that necessarily. So, I think we have to be honest, you know, we are very honest with our students here. To be honest, though, you have to know this stuff. To be honest, you have to like, have it in your head and you know that, I wouldn't go as far as saying the entire organisation communicates in the same way about these things. But I would also say the organisation can't and shouldn't stop people from being honest with either parent, young people about some of these things. Given that one of my areas is outreach, admissions and marketing, I have a team that, you know, is all over this stuff.

They’re living and breathing EDI work, which is so great to have in the world of marketing outreach. It means that we have a very honest, sort of admissions process here and a very honest marketing system here as well. So, we want people to know what they're walking into. and, and hopefully we have lots of good partnerships of industry, we have an excellent industry department in the school. and it's using them to be that sort of link between education and that world of film and TV, so that they know what the concerns are, that they could feed things back and forth. I think my own personal point of view, just making connections with people in industry and having these connections myself, also helps as well. 

Mark Quinn
So, because obviously, you know, a school is a microcosm, but it's only a small part of the system, right?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah.

Mark Quinn
I think that's interesting, isn't it Elaine? 

Elaine Long
It's super interesting and we’ll have a lot of, early career teachers and other educators listening, to this podcast. And obviously, schools are microcosms of society. we we've got a long way to go in addressing systematic inequality, both within school, and outside of school. I think teachers play a huge role in that and I think some of our early career teachers listening would probably kind of like to hear more about what your advice would be, about what role they play in that and, why that's so important.

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah, I would say, really, really important to start with yourself. You've got to start with yourself. It might sound even a bit cliche, but there's nothing stopping anyone from wanting to go in and do some learning and understanding. You know, there's obviously levels to understanding as well. Like there might be some things based on your own identity around your lens that you'll never fully appreciate, but you could definitely make the effort to.

If I'm honest with you, I feel like this isn't even just a tip. It feels like an absolute essential. If I'm honest with you, I don't think you should work with young people if you're not prepared to think about life through all of their eyes. If I'm honest with you, I think it's kind of like reckless.

I feel like there's no space for it. You know, if you're a primary school teacher, this probably comes more natural to think about nurture. I think secondary school teachers and maybe sixth forms think more like subject specialists. And I think in my line of work over the years, work in pastoral care, I've often had that kind of rift where it's been like, hang on a second, what we do in here? I need people to be thinking about development. 

But, you know, you might be just thinking about the subject that you're passionate about, and that's and that's great too. But you have to think about the people in front of you. And fair enough, if your school doesn't have as much diversity in one place or one part a country compared to another, that might also play a role in, you know how much you invest time into trying to understand and learn.

I think it's really, really important that you do, when I say understand and learn, just to make that bit more tangible, I'm talking about trying to understand things like, you know, unconscious bias as an example of something we talk about in terms of race and ethnicity, but it could be anything, we talk about microaggressions, right?

There are books out there, there are people you can talk to. These are these are key, fundamental things. You could end up being a head of department one day as a teacher. Think about your staff. Think about their experience. There are all these things that I would say come with the responsibility of A) being a teacher, B) being a leader in education, C) being a senior leader, there's levels to it. 

And you might not ever nail everything, because again, when I talk about diversity, I am talking about absolutely everything. You know, it'd be very difficult to be a master of all these different lenses. But as I said earlier, I think you have to accept maybe that you have these shortcomings and actually that's the best place to start. 

I said I'd come at equity, earlier. This is where I'd say it. I think you have to make an effort to understand that, you know, if you've got a class in front of you and you've got students, male, female, different backgrounds, and you're thinking, no, no, no, we have to treat them all the same. You're missing something. You're missing something, there will be things that have to be the same, but they don't all have the same start point. And you have to appreciate that I have the same start point and to be honest, if we addressed equity earlier in education, we might not have the problems that we see with GCSE grades and all the rest of it.

We might see something slightly different. So, it isn't something that you can only do when they get to their exam years. It's something that we've got to think about from an early age. But half of what I'm saying here is a society thing. You know, I don't think you can't do it as a single teacher. You can't do it as a single school on your own, but you're definitely a part of it.
Don't opt out because you think you're the only one. You know, if everyone said that nothing would ever change.

Elaine Long
It's amazing, isn't it? Because what you're saying is so fundamental to what teachers need to be before you even sort of start with, like you say, the subject knowledge. But this isn't often always explicitly, spoken about. I love the phrase you've got to see life through all of our eyes. I think that's a really compelling way of putting it and understand the barriers that all your students have and that they're not all, starting from the same point of view.

If you take something like unconscious bias and, and I know, you know, you've worked in education a long time ago. Can you give me examples of why you think that's so important? What are the consequences of not addressing unconscious bias as a teacher or a leader or not understanding, I guess that your decisions aren't neutral in a way.

Rafael Alleyne 
As an example, you know, just away from something like, ethnicity and race or anything else really just thinking about something like behaviour management or, yeah, just classroom control, relationship management, whatever you want to phrase it as. The things that you see are often based on your own upbringing, your own values.

So, and I always use the example of something like, you know, the class being loud or someone being loud and you want to, you know, tell them to be quiet. Your perception of that being loud. Don't get me wrong, that's the signs, right? Decibels. We can just say that. But there might be other behaviours around that where you could, you know, it might be said something about the way you grew up. It might be, you know, your circle. Maybe there's another, group of students out there who live with 5 or 6 siblings, and actually they have a very different vibe at home and actually and they don't have a quiet desk in their bedroom to do their work on and it feels very different, and they still get by. 

So, you have to be aware of what you're bringing to the table, I would say when you're making decisions, I think that's where that starts. And then I think if you think about things like, again, gender, race and ethnicity, what have you, it's thinking, okay, what else am I doing? What else, what other judgements am I making? because of my own lens. What other things am I doing? You can think something, but to then take action, like, you know, that's being that's kind of reign yourself in a little bit or at least ask yourself questions.

I think it's important because if you are dealing with students from other backgrounds or parents from other backgrounds and you're, you know, you feel more of an affinity for some students or some parents compared to others. You just have to ask yourself questions, you might not do anything about that, but at least be aware of it because if you're not aware of it, one thing leads to the other, and before you know it, you're writing someone off, or you're not communicating with someone compared to another, or you're assuming that someone is a little bit more anti-social. There's something you can't quite put your finger on, but you just can't quite gel with them. And, you know, for me, given the role of education and how important those relationships are between teachers and young people, it's just too big a hurdle, that actually could scar someone for life, you know?

If you think about your own childhood memories, school, the rest of it. Like if someone makes a mistake with that, that could be it. You might be setting someone on the path where there's no trust in society because of your relationship and that's reality, that does actually happen. So yeah, and that's just unconscious bias. That's nothing else, just that one area and how, powerful that could be.

Mark Quinn
It proves once again, doesn't it Raf, that, being a teacher is just a huge responsibility, right? That that you've got enormous power to do fantastic good, but also to do just through inattention, perhaps, or a little bit of personal ignorance to do terrible damage as well, right? One word. Wrong or not even a word wrong, kind of gesture wrong.

We've got a lot of people listening. Thousands of people, I hope, listening into our podcast who are thinking to themselves, I'm an early career teacher and I'm really worried now. I've been listening to Raf Alleyne talk and I believe every word he says but I don't know where to start. You know, I'm an early career teacher, I'm trying to, you know, teach my subject or teach these children in front of me and now I've got these other things to worry about as well, and I really would love to be an inclusive practitioner. 

Raf, can you help them out?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah. it's funny you can say that because I was just thinking the same thing as I, oh, God, I hope haven’t scared of teachers because, you know, I love teachers, I love education, I love teachers, I'm always excited about you know, new teachers for the same reasons I said at the start is development. I just love seeing people start this journey.

And I guess it's that old cliche, you know, the old Spider-Man thing with great power comes great responsibility. It's one of those, I would hope that everyone knows that anyway. I would hope that everyone knows that this job always comes with responsibility. One thing I wouldn't apologise for is saying, like what you pretty much said there's a lot sitting on you when you’re a teacher.

When you're a teacher, there's a lot of eyes on you. There's a lot responsibility but you know, you don't have to overthink it. It literally is one step at a time. I think the first step just has to be questioning your own, you know, intention sometimes, question how good you are picking up on things like, we've all again got our blind spots.

And I think the question starts with like, you know, what are my blind spots? What are they? You will have some, one hundred percent. As much as I talk about this, I've got my blind spots and I'll also have my blind spots within, ethnicity and race. You know, it's going to be a thing but it's being aware of that and then I think it's, you know, I don't know whether you in the first teaching practice, just finishing your second where it might be. I think it's just a case of, yeah, like going into your classroom spaces and just looking at those relationships that you have. 

Be a bit meta about it. Stand back from yourself a little bit when you go home, do your reflections, which is a massive part of this, of this whole game, you know, education and teaching. And when you're reflecting, just think about the things beyond the mark book, you know, beyond the assessment, beyond the subject. Think about those relationship things because you know, you're in a better position to assess this than I am. But when I first started teaching, I mean, I was training relationships and classroom relationships and classroom environment was a big part of what we spoke about regardless of our subjects. 

I don't know how much that's discussed now, but I definitely know that I really invested and felt really important that those were the fundamentals and the foundations. So, everything that we're talking about now, as far as I'm concerned, is a part of that. This is classroom environment stuff, you can't control the whole school, but you can definitely control to a certain degree what happens in your space. And I think it'll just be a case of, yeah, you know, where am I at with this whole thing? My friendship groups, my family, when am I ever exposed to this? When am I ever exposed to these kind of topics? Do I ever talk about this stuff to people.

I would say there’s teachers in my school now who clearly don't on a regular basis and have had to base, on our school's mission and how we intend to use our time, whether it be staff training or staff briefings and I've seen them also grow and get better over time because it's becoming more familiar and there's other people that talk about this every day outside of work, because it's their lives.

Mark Quinn
You must have come across this, I'm absolutely certain you have, hearing teachers in staff rooms or in corridors or wherever, posing EDI issues as problems. So, as you were saying, they take their mark book home and the pour over the bits of reflection and the reflection might take them to a place where this lesson went wrong because child A or child B spoke out of line or didn't behave or wasn't able to do the thing, I asked them to do. You know the point I'm making? 

That we kind of, there's a danger isn't there, that we bracket the problems of teaching in the same place as where we bracket EDI issues. And of course, that's not the message we want to broadcast today. So, you must have heard people say that and is there a hump if you like that some people have to get over in their mind or in their practice where they stop thinking about posing this as a series of problems and start thinking about it in a more optimistic or more, I don't know, more humanistic kind of way?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, this comes down to this, like knowing your class, I guess, and planning and things like that. Like everyone's got something to bring. Right? And it sounds very cheesy sometimes, but without doubt, if you apply some time and thoughts of it, you can see it, you know, it'll be in their personalities and that's where I would say that personalities are entwined in our identity. 

I could be thinking more creatively here because of the space that I work in. Maybe I haven't been in the science lab for quite a long time now. but there's always opportunity. There's always the, like, the opportunity to stand back sometimes from the problems and think about new ways of doing things, new ways of incorporating members of the class, new roles and responsibilities, you know, almost like, you know, I don't want to make rebels here, but like ripping up the rulebook a little bit.

I just try to be really creative. I think sometimes people lack creativity because you go into this cycle, you know, every week becomes a new half term, every half term becomes a new term and before you know it, the end of the academic year. And it's like there's little people, like human beings and people, and as adults we can break those cycles.

You just have to decide, are you going to break the cycle. There's ways of doing it. Have to be brave enough to use time, because when it comes down to you might be under pressure to finish a unit. You know, it might be an assessment coming up, but use time to just actually have these kind of discussions and these kind of thought processes to shake things up a little bit.

Mark Quinn
As you say, as you say, invest in knowing them and knowing their personalities.

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah. For sure.

Elaine Long
I was just going to side same thing because I know you, I've worked with you and I know you’re really passionate about that. And you were always saying to people, make sure you know your class, know your students. Rule number one, what does that look like then, if you go in a classroom and then those relationships are strong and teachers do know their students, what does it look like and what have they done to get to that point?

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah, I think it's again, taking time sometimes to not be mastered by the script. You know, the lesson you planned or hopefully lesson you plan, you know, especially in this day and age, shared resources is a beautiful thing, is amazing. But sometimes the more something is shared, the less onus there is in that person to break it down for their actual class.

I don’t think that's great. I think when you're forced to think about the 25 or 30 whatever is in front of you, like how are they going to receive this information, you will see things differently. So, I think there's something about the planning and I don't I think there's something about yeah, just taking time to see how do they respond to Q&A. I would always say encourage discussion but then sometimes, you know, I would do too much of that but like have discussions, see how they do see who's sheepish, who's shy. We just want to certain topics more than others. Like those are the things that give you the opportunity to know what you're dealing with. and by the way, you can have positive relationships and still have lots of blind spots.

So I wouldn't be suggesting with positive relationships you don't have those because you probably only find out when something goes wrong, you know? But I would also say appreciate who they are, down to the bone almost, so have those personal relationships for sure. Know who they are, see what they offer, let them know they have something to offer, but then take your own time to think about what makes them, them, you know.

So, if you've got, a young Asian boy in your class or an Asian female or black student, whatever it might be, think about what they offer their interests, their relationships, even whatever. Think about even look at where they're from, where they live, and trying to build a picture. I know I'm saying this because you could have multiple classes that people can be saying, oh my God, how am I even do this?

You don’t go away and do like homework overnight. We're talking about getting to know a class over time and building more and more information. And I just think accepting that their identity is also a part of what you like, you know, like that they want and he has made them who they are. There’s no real place for saying things like, oh, we all get on and like, you know, I don't even, I don't even see colour or I don't even see religion, whatever.

It's like, you know, no, see it because this was made them who they are. See it. They want you to see it. I you to appreciate it. Actually, I think it's what they're bringing to the table is a part of them as well. So yeah, that that helps.

Elaine Long
I think that's really, really good advice. Know them, for who they are and know them to the bone and that's really practical advice and in a way, isn't it? Because, you know, it's one of the first things you can do when you start out as a teacher is, is make sure that you give yourself permission to take that time to really get to know the students and noticing, I think the power of noticing in the classroom and who's responding, who's not responding, how they might feel, why, how their backgrounds might have affected that. I think that’s really powerful things. 

You talked a bit about, bias at the start of the podcast and what the consequences are of not recognising our bias and the implications that for, for relationships and, trust.

I think tackling implicit bias is pretty huge in EDI work and, it's hard, to kind of navigate that area, but where would you advise about getting started on that?

Rafael Alleyne 
There's lots of, I probably should have bought some titles. I didn't but hopefully you can attach some, reading to this may be, some associated reading, but there are some good books out there. There are lots of good books out there that would help people, just even explore the idea of it. I think there's, especially in this day and age, I'll be very honest with you, since 2020, since we had the murder of George Floyd in America.

We had sort of like the resurgence of Black Lives Matter around that time, I would say four years later now, there's quite a few people that feel a little bit beat up by that whole thing, you know, and probably bit worn. And I think there's a lot of books out there now, like there's one book called, White Fragility, for example.

There's another book called, Why I'm not talking to white or black racists, that came out a long time ago. To be honest with you, after a while, people are, you know what? Like am I just going to be the bad guy, the enemy for the next 100 million years kind of thing, and it can feel a little bit like, you know, everything I read is an attack of your own identity, if you're a white male or female. And I think there's something about that, because some of these books are older than 2020. 

But there's also a lot of people I would say that have felt, I guess, more confident to talk about things like white fragility since 2020, and I think you got to find this balance where, you know, as a reader, if you're a white teacher, for example, like you still need to know stuff, don't ignore it if it feels that way. But at the same time, you know, lean into it, understand it, but also be aware that there is a phase that we're in right now where if ‘m honest with you, it might even be a little bit, almost fashionable to pick holes in certain things. 

I feel right at the moment, people are quite confident about talking about a lack of diversity and saying potentially, you know, oh, this is a traditional white male in a leadership position, and we know that is the case. My own thing about that is why weren’t we saying that ten years ago? You know, it was the same situation. 

So, it's great that people have had confidence to talk about this now. But sometimes the argument doesn't go beyond that, and I think the danger of that is if you're someone that is trying to learn, all you're hearing is maybe some negativity and you might feel like you're getting beat up on.

And I feel like people that are making the books, doing the conferences, doing the talks, should think about the responsibility that comes with that, you know, because we all lose if people don't listen. That's my big thing. So, it's important that we don't lose our audiences with this particular theme. This is just advice for, I guess, young teachers reading, please don't get put off by it, be aware of it. It might be a thing, but it's still going to be here in 50 years’ time to read, 30 years’ time to read. Don't take it too personally, but there is an argument to say that maybe some people have gone quite personal with it.

Elaine Long
And Raf I know you've been quite heavily involved in developing professional learning activities at your school to support teachers with, equality, diversity and inclusion. I wondered if you could just talk me through some of the things you've done and some of the things that you think have really had an impact and sort of shifting culture, because it is a long game, right?

It takes time to, to shift culture. But in your experience, what are some of the things you got staff to do that you feel are really starting to shift culture.

Rafael Alleyne 
Yeah. I mean, first of all, we're blessed here to have, you know, I'm working with post 16 students who are very creative thinkers, amazing thinkers and I'm not exaggerating when I say it, a lot of what I've been able to do is because of them. It literally is because of them is, you know, our group itself that we have, we have a group called the EIC, the Inclusion Committee, myself and my colleagues.

Maya, she's also the head of admissions marketing outreach here. We run that group and we have staff and students, and literally, it's taken all of us to pull it together. But I think if I go back to, you know, a couple of years when we first started this, this whole journey, I think, we committed to not getting into activities and things.

We committed to just people having spaces to talk and listen. That was difficult because everyone was getting a bit itchy and there were people who wanted to do the quote unquote right thing, because they didn't want to come across like they went into this. that was a very 20, 21 thing. but the less we physically did, for example, policy changes, the less we were talking about, the harder it was for people because they couldn't see their place in it.

It was so important to just listen, listen to the conversations. But when you're listening and, you know, I'm a mediator as well, trained mediator. So, one of the things I love doing is extracting information and listening really carefully, actively listening and listening to things that sound like, I don't know, misconception or misunderstandings and during a whole half term of these kind of conversations, we took out some big themes. It looked like the idea of language was a big one. Either people not using the same language to talk about things, understanding the same language, or saying the wrong thing. You know, I say the wrong thing, saying something that would be offensive. They didn't realise, it was one of those three. 
So, then we put on a workshop. We designed the workshop a bit like planning a lesson. We designed a workshop together, fun activities. invited staff and students, which is all about language. In that session we developed, what we called our inclusive dictionary. So, an inclusive dictionary has lots of words, some that you might find in the actual dictionary, some that you might not, and it's things that we're saying, we've made a resource, we're putting it out there now, we think you should use this to understand some of the themes. 

As an example, something like, I don't know, Colourism isn't something that people were talking about openly, maybe even 15, 20 years ago, even to this day probably isn't commonly spoken about. The kids in my school understand it, they're talking about it, they want teachers to understand it. Therefore, it goes in a dictionary. So that's an example. 

We looked at things like using the platform of film and story, I guess, as well, looking at things, you know, quote, unquote whitewashing in films and, you know, colour-blind casting, we've had to have those kind of conversations.

So, we've used maybe some of the themes of our school as well as some of the sort of current affairs and the issues that the students are talking about. Listen carefully and then try to turn them into workshops. But it's a lot of time and effort, but it's definitely been worth it. and it's really interesting just letting people talk and just listening and then, you know, try to turn it into something.

Elaine Long
I think it's really important what you were saying there as well, about not jumping into action and waiting and listening and helping people to develop a language where they can even begin to talk about the same thing. I think it's really inspiring, and I would love to see, the dictionary, as well, sounds really inspiring. 

We give every guest, a Post-it note on the podcast. So, I'm going to pass you your Post-it note and you can write anything you like on the Post-it note, and you can stick your Post-it note anyway you like as well, on anyone's desk, someone's forehead on the wall, whatever. creatively location you like. So, what would you like to write on your Post-it note, and where would you like to stick it?

Rafael Alleyne 
Okay, my Post-it note will say, this is the sound really abstract. I'll just explain it first. I feel school can be a bit of a bubble, right? It could be a bit of a bubble. And when we were on that roller coaster in September, all the way to the end of the year, the bubble can get smaller and smaller and smaller.

So, my Post-it, is going to literally say, take time to step out of the bubble. I think it's really important to stand back, reflect on everything. And if you do that, I think it's more than EDI. I just think teachers need that. They need that space to stand back, get out of it. It isn't necessarily advice that you want to get from your school itself, but I think it's important that we do this in all walks of life.

I just think stand back from it all and say it's really important. don't let the game. I'm saying a lot that just wouldn't fit in a Post-it. But don't let the game, take over, you know, remember what the point of this whole thing is, and it definitely isn't, you know, practicing the exam papers or, you know, getting through the course, there's something bigger going on here.

So, yeah, step out of the bubble, and where would I stick that?  I'd like to stick it. I don't know, in the sky, in the ECT universe that they can always look up and remember it when they go into work.

Mark Quinn
Raf, I don't know if you have bells at the London Screen Academy, but we have them here so I can hear one now, so that's telling Elaine and me that we've got to step out of our bubble and let you get back to your job. which is obviously a really important one, and you're very passionate about it, and it's been a real privilege to sit back and mostly listen to you for the last 45 minutes.

So, thank you for your time. You deserve your herbal tea and your Malt Milk. So, I hand it to you now, it might have got a bit cold in the meantime, but really, thank you very much.

Rafael Alleyne 
Thank you.

Elaine Long
Thanks, Raf, we’ve learnt so much.

Rafael Alleyne 
Thank you. I really appreciate it as well. Thank you.

Mark Quinn
Our thanks go to Rafael Alleyne, who's the Assistant Principal at the London Screen Academy, for sharing a herbal tea with us this week in the ECF Staffroom.

Elaine Long
Please do get in touch with us if you think you would like to chat about your ECF experience. In the meantime, do join us for a biscuit and a chat with another colleague in the ECF Staffroom.

Mark Quinn
If you've enjoyed this episode, there's more where that came from. Search IOE podcast from wherever you get your podcasts to find episodes of the ECF Staffroom, as well as more podcasts from the IOE

Elaine Long
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