Transcript | Academia et al: S03E02

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Female voice 00:00:00 

You're listening to an IOE podcast powered by UCL Minds. This is Academia et al., the podcast for anyone and everyone figuring out life in academia. 

Keri Wong 00:00:35 

You're listening to Academia et al., the podcast for early career academics, by early career academics. I'm Keri, an Associate Professor in Developmental Psychology at IOE, UCL’s Faculty of Education and Society. 

Alina Pelikh 00:00:51 

And I'm Alina. I'm a Senior Research Fellow in Demography, also at UCL IOE. We’re the co-hosts for this podcast and like you, we’re early career academics just trying to figure it all out. Moving away from Seasons 2's theme of academic leavers, we'd like to bring back a focus on academia in Season 3 of Academia et al. This season will focus on the practical and relevant skills for young professionals. Whether you’re still completing a PhD or consider yourself an early career academic, we want to help you maximise your employability for any career. We will answer questions like: How do I build a strong academic CV? How do I stand out from the crowd? Where do I start looking for jobs? And how do I prepare for job interviews? What is impact, and how do I talk to journalists? All of these and much more is coming up next in Season 3 of Academia et al.  

Keri 00:01:35 

In this episode, we are thrilled to be chatting with a special guest and friend about a really timely topic that is academic skills. Do I have what it takes to keep up with the times? What would you do if you could start your Ph.D. all over again? 

00:01:57 

And with the rise of AI usage in everyday life in academia, many listeners may be wondering, what is the value of a traditional academic skillset and how can we navigate the new challenges in teaching today's generation of students? 

Alina 00:02:17 

So today, we're going to talk about the experiences, how to maximise this unique time and what should we learn? How do I build a strong academic CV and how do I stand out from the crowd? 

00:02:23 

Joining us in today's conversation is the lovely Jenny Chanfreau. Dr. Jenny Chanfreau is a Lecturer in Sociology at the University of Sussex. Jenny's journey into academia is a reminder that early career academic doesn't always mean young professional. These are Jenny's words, not mine. She spent seven years as a social researcher before starting her PhD in gender studies at the London School of Economics. 

00:02:47 

After completing her doctoral research in 2019, she joined the Center for Longitudinal Studies in the UCL Social Research Institute as a Research Fellow in Demography before taking up a lectureship at Sussex at the beginning of this academic year. She's also the co-founder of FemQuant, which is a network of feminist, quantitative social science researchers. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny. 

Jenny Chanfreau 00:03:09 

It's a pleasure to be here chatting to you both today. Thank you for the invitation.  

Keri 00:03:21 

Great, and so, Jenny, first of all, huge congratulations on your recent appointment as a Lecturer in Sociology at the University of Sussex. Well done. I'm super proud of you.  

Jenny 00:03:34 

Thank you! 

Keri 00:03:37 

You have certainly been missed at UCL and from my time of knowing you, Jenny, I know that you've had a fascinating academic journey getting to where you got to today. 

I know you spent some time at NatCen. So for our listeners, NatCen is the common short name for the National Center for Social Research, So can you tell us a little bit about how and why you decided to apply for a PhD at the London School of Economics after years of working at this charity?  

Jenny 00:04:02 

So that decision came about, sort of a little bit on a whim. There was a combination of push and pull factors, I suppose NatCen had gone through some restructuring at the time, so I guess that was a bit of a push factor. Some of my colleagues had left and I was starting to think about what else might be out there. And the pull factor was academic research within academia allows you, I guess, a bit more academic freedom and to be explicitly political in your research and how you communicate the research. 

00:04:34 

So that was a bit of a pull factor. I would say that in hindsight all's well that ends well, but I know that during the time of the PhD, probably most of that I did question my sanity quite, quite a few times with that decision to jump off a permanent contract. I had a pension and just decided to chuck it all and jump off a cliff and hope that I learned to fly before I hit the ground. 

Alina 00:05:03 

Well, thank you for sharing. I hope no regrets. You sound as if you’ve no regrets? 

Jenny 00:05:13 

No, not anymore. 

Alina 00:05:15 

Okay. Coming back to more practical questions, many students come to studies soon after finishing their postgraduate degrees and many struggle at the beginning to organise their time, often spending ages trying to figure out how academia works. Do you remember finding this challenging after switching from a world of clear tasks and deadlines and whether you could share any practical tips for our listeners? 

Jenny 00:05:32 

I did find the translation quite challenging. Yes, I found academia quite opaque and sort of there’s a hidden curriculum that I spent a lot of time trying to figure out. I felt like academia was a bit of a bubble and I wasn't sure if what I'd done previously had value... that it sort of counted within academia, and I didn't feel like a student. 

00:05:59 

I felt like what I was doing day to day on the PhD was very similar to what I had done previously in terms of analysis and writing and things, and it didn't... apart from not having a salary, I didn't feel like a student. So in terms of tips, I would say treat the PhD as a one-person research project. 

00:06:24 

Think about the project management skills that you need to sort of keep your PhD on track. And then secondly, aim for a balance. So a PhD hopefully shouldn't be your whole identity. If you can, treat it like a full-time job. So, you know, take weekends, take evenings, balance in terms of both time. So obviously pace yourself, it is a marathon, not a sprint. 

00:06:55 

So in the UK context, it'll probably take around 3 to 4 years. It might take a bit longer, might take a bit shorter, but you can't be going at full speed for that whole time because there will be crunch points where you have deadlines, where you have to step up and if you're already at full speed, you've got nothing else to step up to. 

00:07:17 

And that also means taking breaks. So taking leave, I had a family while I was doing my PhD and they certainly expected me to log off, put the computer away while we're on holiday. So that helped me. And with the balance as well, I mentioned my family. Having a social context I think really helps as well, so that the PhD isn't defining all of you, all of your life, if you like. 

Keri 00:07:43 

That's really great. And lots of what you've said definitely resonates. And I really like the imagery of it's a marathon, not a sprint, because oftentimes when you're stuck in that PhD Mode, you feel like, I have to get keep going, just keep going, you can't have weekends. What sleep? what, you know. So I think it's very important to remember that. 

00:08:04 

And, as a psychologist that's a super good tip. And so, you know, before I share a little bit about how that experience was like for me, Alina, I'm really curious to know how it was for you, you know, your early days as a student. How did you manage your time?  

Alina 00:08:20 

I think it definitely resonates with a lot of what Jenny said. I did not come from the world of work before, so I came straight through and did multiple Master’s. And the only thing that I knew in life... how to do is to study. And I think that brought a lot of responsibility off, not to say responsibility, but challenge of how do you draw the line, how to treat it as a job, how to count hours, if needs be, to not get overwhelmed with reading, reading, reading. 

00:08:52 

And also, I moved to the UK without prior experience of living in the UK and my PhD was about the transition to adulthood in the UK. So I took it very serious upon me to read about the social context, to talk to people, to ask them whether what I want to do actually makes sense. I also had a lot of housemates from various parts of the UK, so I remember while I was finding something in my PhD, I was like, does that sound okay to you? 

00:09:21 

Like, does that sound like what you people do? And they were like, yeah, yeah, that sounds like me. That sounds like what my brothers, sisters say. I think for anyone who experienced something similar, it is a big challenge. But you should be easy on yourself even though it doesn't feel that way. And I think exactly the balance of taking weekends off even when you don't feel like you've done much progress. 

00:09:45 

I think the first three months is the time when you feel: What am I even doing? What are they paying me for? They just pay me to read books. Amazing. But that can take a toll on you thinking that you are, you know, it triggers immediately an imposter syndrome. What am I doing here? What am I getting paid for? 

00:10:04 

I can ask for this money back. So I think that's something that has been going through my head in the early months and I wish that someone would tell me it's going to go and it's going to be... it's going to get easier. I did try to sign up for as many early career networks and socials and go and talk to other people... what are their experiences and how they came about to the world of the PhD. 

00:10:25 

And I think it was fascinating to find that so many people were like me, not just going straight through their studies into academia... And so they shared this wisdom of try, you know, not to take it personal and very Brené Brown stuff, but it does get personal. 

00:10:49 

Well, that's it about me and Keri, any words of wisdom from your early days and how you overcame all of those hurdles?  

Keri 00:11:14 

Too many hurdles to identify, but something that maybe is similar to Alina, your experience again. Like you, I started a PhD not having even lived in the UK at all, so I was kind of thrown into the, you know, little town of Cambridge. 

00:11:17 

And, you know, I certainly knew before embarking on a PhD that I really wanted to do this. This is something, you know, I'm passionate about. The topic is great. You know, I worked on understanding children and how they develop trust in others and then also their mental health. So through the PhD  actually got to learn a bit more about the UK culture. 

00:11:38 

I was visiting schools, I was venturing out of the little town, and that was really the only time I got to see outside of campus and that was my experience of the UK in schools and on buses waiting in the fields for a long time, you know, trying to get to this one school and do this testing with children. 

00:11:59 

And I think for me, a large part of my PhD felt like a really lonely process. You know, you had to keep yourself accountable, you had to set your own deadlines. And I would say maybe before doing the PhD, I thought I was pretty good at that, you know, setting my own deadlines and meeting it. But certainly, I think during the PhD when you're amidst it all, time can be such a kind of an illusory kind of construct because your weekends and weekdays just blend into one. 

00:12:31 

You're not sleeping well, I remember just being on lots of caffeinated drinks and everyone else seemed to be doing fine and well. So certainly, I remember my mental health also struggling a little bit whilst I was doing the PhD and reminding yourself that actually as a psychologist you should care about your health, and this should be a priority and the PhD will still be there even after you fix everything out. 

00:12:58 

So I think as it became this kind of changing of a mindset at some point, that this is as Jenny said, is a marathon, not a sprint, that you need to, you know, really think that this is a process for you to figure out whether academia is even for you. And I think as soon as I saw it like that and knowing that not everyone after a PhD will stay in academia, I think it was helpful to enjoy the process a little bit more and to figure out, is this really for me? 

00:13:30 

There is still time to figure it out, even if I don't know exactly where I want to be after the PhD, which perhaps many PhD students at the moment are thinking about that, trying to figure out what that next thing is. So, yeah, I think that that was how it was for me and certainly not an easy journey. 

Alina 00:13:49 

Thank you both for sharing. And to be honest, I wish I'd known that and I've had these episodes when I was in my early PhD days. And if we talk about the early PhD days and if you're listening to us from abroad, you might not know that in the UK, PhD students have kind of a strange status in the department. They are sort of part of the department, but not really considered their staff members, which might lead to feeling isolated, what Keri just talked about, from time to time, unless one takes a proactive approach. Jenny, do you share my sentiment or was your experience different?  

Jenny 00:14:40 

Yeah, in terms of the strange status in the department, I think that’s spot on in some ways. I think student is a bit of a misnomer for PhD. I personally preferred the term doctoral researcher. In fact, a lot of doctoral researchers actually do paid work within the department that they're associated with as postgraduate teaching assistants. At some point during the PhD, not everyone, of course, but often as PhD researchers, they're not invited to departmental meetings, for example. So they're not sort of integrated into the running of the department, even as they may be contributing to the delivery of some of the department's teaching. 

00:15:15 

Now, the department I was at doing my PhD actually did a lot of things really well in terms of that integration process. So there were really regular sort of, departmental seminars and public lectures with an expectation that both faculty and PhD researchers attend those. They were open to students as well, Master's students as well. But the expectation was there for both faculty and PhDs, I remember feeling quite awkward at the time because they were quite late in the afternoon, early evening, not the greatest when you've got kids to, you know, to get to bed, etc.. 

00:15:58 

But actually, the fact that the expectation was there helped me integrate into the department. The other thing was that the department fiercely protected the dedicated office space for PhD researchers within the department, even as the institution was trying to sort of say, well, you know, with this you've got this massive office here we should allocate to paid faculty. 

00:16:23 

And no, the PhD researchers need that space and the social space, the sort of shared common space in the department was also shared. There was no hierarchy there, it was shared between students, faculty and PhDs. So, a lot of good things that departments can do even with that strange sort of status in the UK.  

Alina 00:16:46 

Thank you. I think I would agree entirely with what you said and thank you for sharing though the tips about teaching and attending all the seminars and doing as much possible to get noticed. Anything else that comes to mind in terms of trying to get visible, into trying to get a voice? 

Jenny 00:17:03 

I think internally within the department obviously use the space that is available, show up, attend research seminars, socials, etc. beyond the department or maybe even beyond the institution, the university that you're at. There's a whole list of things that you can do, and I think that list is probably almost endless. 

00:17:23 

If you just like, type in” build your brand as a doctoral researcher” into a search engine, I'm sure you can generate a massive long list, but I'd say don't try and do everything, you know, pick what suits you and follow the calling, if you like. If something feels important or worthwhile to you, even if it's not on a list of strategic things to do during your PhD, and even if at the time the career value might not be obvious to you as you're starting, it might turn out. 

00:17:58 

So if it feels important, if it feels worthwhile, lean into that. Do it, and see if you can make that part of your academic profile. Because if it's not on one of those lists that everyone can see, then it'll make you stand out from the crowd. 

Keri 00:18:15 

That's a great tip and I think this moves on nicely to my next question, which is more about the academic community and the social aspects. And Jenny, I know in your PhD days together with a few other students, you founded FemQuant. So this network for researchers using feminist approaches to quantitative social sciences. So listeners, if you've never heard of it, check out their web page, it'll be in our show notes, it’s super cool. Tell me a bit more about how you came up with that and where did you and so many other like-minded people set it up? 

Jenny 00:18:47 

Yeah, so actually it came about, I think it was at the end of my first year as a PhD researcher. I went on a methods summer school and I met Rose Cook there, who is a PhD student at another university at UCLA. So I was at LSE and we got talking about the challenges of sort of our aspirations to do feminist research using quantitative data and sort of talks about how great it was to have met someone who was struggling with the same thing and wish that there would be a conference that we could attend to learn more about it and chat to others like us. 

00:19:33 

But you know, it was a shame that one of those things doesn't exist. And eventually it dawned on us that if it didn't exist, we had to organise it. So about a year later, we had got as far as putting on a one-day event, and by the time the event actually rolled out, and came around, we had realised that we wanted this conversation to continue and to have it with more like-minded people. 

00:20:03 

So on the day we actually said, you know, if anyone's interested in doing more of this sort of stuff, then get in touch. And that's how the network really was formed. So after that first one day event, Sarah, who was just finishing her Ph.D. in Canada, and Heini Väisänen, who was at the time an early career researcher or lecturer already, they joined the organising collective, and that's when we really kicked off the network. 

00:20:31 

So it's quite niche. Feminist research and quantitative methods. Most people are like, does that even combine? Are the networks still ongoing? And my main motivation for FemQuant, for wanting it to continue is still to have that space to learn from others, come together and have conversations. And I'm heartened by what Sara Ahmed said about living a feminist life, that to become a feminist is to stay a student. That really resonates with me when I'm thinking about these challenges with doing feminist research with quant data.  

Keri 00:21:25 

That's amazing. And I can see, Jenny, that you wasted no time and started the network right then and there, which sounds like a really good characteristic of a PhD student who wants to make change and to get on with it. To have that idea if it doesn't exist, you start it, you can be the one leading it. 

00:21:29 

And pretty similar to kind of our early career network a lot of times and even our podcast a little bit, giving voice to early career academics is sort of founded on that notion too. So kudos to starting things and just going with the flow. And how about you, Alina, before, during, during your PhD days, did you have similar experiences as well? 

Alina 00:21:53 

While it’s some... it's somewhat similar, but of course hats off to Jenny and the other PhD students for finding the network. Yeah, for getting started with a network. I think this is the most you can do. If it doesn't exist, then you create an international scholarship that's kind of hard to beat. So my achievements were not as broad, but I very quickly realised that there isn't enough room for conversation, mostly for me to talk to other demographers. 

00:22:22 

So I am a demographer and I was trained in demography and before taking up my PhD in Liverpool, I did the European doctoral school in demography and before studied in Germany, specifically in demography. And I felt like I'm always surrounded by demographers. And then the reality hit me. I started my PhD in the Department of Geography, something that I never thought is humanly possible. 

00:22:46 

And then I had to learn that demography and social sciences very often in the UK, sit within the Department of Geography and count somewhere in between human geography and sociology, or social policy or gender studies, like in the case of LSE sometimes. So it was a huge revelation that, wow, okay, I'm not going to be talking to demographers all the time anymore, so how can I change that? 

00:23:13 

I went to all possible free events, especially the ones that offered accommodation or travel or lunches. So any kind of meetings and one-day meeting conferences and one of my very first conferences was the British Society for Population Studies, which is now my favorite conferences. I think I've been about nine times since my very first year of PhD, and I very soon realized that I was actually asked whether I would be interested in applying to be a student rep and have a seat on the council or with some other senior academics and professors. 

00:23:48 

And I was very flattered, very scared. But I thought I have to go for it because otherwise I will not know other PhD students in the country. I will not know who is what or who, who is who, and in which university they sit. So I applied for it and I sat on the panel for two years and I helped organising conferences and I organised various events for early career academics with the help of people from the council and different professors. 

00:24:19 

So I got to know my crowds in in the country context. And I think that was hugely beneficial. And also it did make me stand out from the crowd and people did know me and did get to know about me or read about me in the newsletter. There was always my photo as student rep, which I'm sure helped me in life just to get noticed and to have people have, having people heard my name or seen my face before. 

00:24:48 

Keri, how about you? Anything, anything similar?  

Keri 00:25:02 

Yeah, I guess I'm starting to see a pattern between the three of us, that were go-getters and starters. But again, my probably small accomplishment as a Ph.D. student is not any of the scale of your national or even the specialty level. But when I was a PhD student, I think selfishly I enjoyed very much meeting academics or other PhD students from different disciplines. 

00:25:21 

So through kind of conversations at meal times and social events, you know, the thing that really I enjoyed the most, I would say, were these conversations like the both of you. And because I couldn't find a space where these multi disciplinary or interdisciplinary conversations could have within college in a more formal setting. And I found it really difficult to kind of want to know everyone and kind of know what they're doing all at the same time. 

00:25:51 

Me and another friend of the time, a flatmate, actually, we were flatmates... We decided to put on a conference. We just called it a multidisciplinary conference. It was for PhD students and also the fellows of the college and lecturers. And, you know, we thought it was important to have the kind of academics at the next stage join our sessions and give us advice, so to speak. 

00:26:18 

And so that kind of multidisciplinary conference really was helpful in drawing out the themes or common themes and research questions that we were all trying to answer, but using different methods, different training as well. And I found that conference to be very helpful for my own thinking for everyone else as well who was there because we soon realized that even though we might be working on a similar research question, the types of methods and the process and thinking process, how we went about doing it and getting there was quite different. 

00:26:54 

And that itself led to kind of new collaborations between PhD students at our stage. But also understanding what a faculty is working on was certainly helpful, helpful as well. So I think that's kind of been the running theme of a lot of my other projects since then. Now that I think about it, because it involves multidisciplinary collaborations, maybe also individual roles from different career stages as well. 

00:27:24 

So yeah, that, that was something that started when I was a PhD student.  

Alina 00:27:36 

That sounds great. I really hope that our listeners benefit from hearing about various ways that you can make that PhD more of a Ph.D. and whether you, wherever you're based, can start looking for like-minded people. Sign up for early career networks, attend socials, volunteer to be a postgraduate rep. 

00:27:49 

The world is your oyster really. And now on to the next question. So we’re going even further along the PhD journey. So let's talk about building your CV and skill sets. Jenny, do you remember what kind of courses you attempted during your studies and how you found them? 

Jenny 00:28:09 

Yeah, I feel like I attended quite a lot. So my, the department where I was doing my PhD mandated that first year PhDs audit some of the core courses for Master's level. 

00:28:19 

So one was the gender theory course and the other one was the feminist research and epistemology course. And they were great. I certainly made sure that we were all sorts of on the same page, the starting blocks. I also audited a statistics course that was maybe a little bit more advanced than I was looking at, but great to have those notes when I actually needed to apply some of those analysis techniques. 

00:28:49 

And then I also audited a feminist demography module taught by my supervisor. And then over the years I did attend... some short courses as well. The summer school that I mentioned on methods, some other short courses on specific methods. And I feel like I was like in sponge mode attending every early career researcher event at conferences. You know, sometimes they put on maybe the day before the proper conference, they put something on specifically for early career researchers... 

00:29:21 

So things like sessions on how to get published, how to do a peer review for a journal, all of those, I signed up for all of them and I just wanted to end with a point that Alina mentioned about going back to the same conference year after year, and I think that's a really good thing. If you find your people, keep going back as a PhD student, because that's how you get known by the wider community of colleagues, not at your institution who are roughly working in the same area. 

Keri 00:29:56 

That's a good tip. I certainly have also conferences that I've been to as a PhD student and continue to go back and yeah, that's a great, great way to make yourself known and your work known. So I guess, you know, thinking about those courses, it sounds like obviously now it was very time consuming. You know, you somehow managed to pack all of that in amidst all the other family things and whatnot. 

00:30:20 

But for the PhD student today, do you think that would be your kind of suggestion to them as well, that they should be engaging with many courses and skills and training up as well? What are your thoughts, Jenny? 

Jenny 00:30:40 

I think every PhD journey is very individual. It depends on your circumstances. So, you know, not only that I attend a lot of courses. I also had to do paid work and, you know, other there were other constraints on my time, but somehow I seemed to, yeah, get lots done in the four years. I think it can be really useful to do, to do formal courses whether they're modules, you know, that you're auditing at the university or specific short courses. I know that I still go back to some of the foundational readings from the courses that I audited, and I certainly revisit the methods, course materials, especially for the courses that provided code. 

00:31:20 

I go back to my notes and I go back to the code. I'm like, I can reuse this and start developing it for my own analysis. So I think it can be useful. But I wouldn't you know, there's no one size fits all.  

Alina 00:31:42 

I 100% agree with that. And fun fact actually for our listeners, Jenny and I actually met during our very first year at the training course in Manchester, and it was a short course in sequence analysis that was running at the Cathie Marsh institute for Social Research. 

00:31:49 

It's a brilliant center that offers a wide range of short courses, social promotion! Please do look it up. It's amazing. Highly recommend. And Jenny and I still use the USB sticks that they gave us. So we occasionally find those colorful, bright purple and bright green USB sticks that the materials were on. So that's also a fun reminder about all the courses that we took together. 

Keri 00:32:12 

I know... And, and I think as a PhD student, this I'm sure you all agree, the free things and the freebies that really make us want to go to events, but also that's also a way for us to remember what we've learned from those... from those sessions as well. But so yeah, I guess we're moving through the PhD at lightning speed here. 

00:32:33 

Now say, you know, you're halfway through the PhD, the clock starts ticking. So from just navigating where to begin to find jobs, you're finding yourself that you suddenly have very limited funded time or paid time. And, you know, as early career researchers, our contracts are very precarious and limited. You know, when and where does one begin looking for jobs? And importantly, should they start looking before their contract or scholarship ends? Jenny, any thoughts on this?  

Jenny 00:32:46 

Yeah, I do. I'm not sure I have any wisdom to share on what people should do. I found myself wondering as you were speaking just then, what even is halfway through your PhD and the clock starts ticking? I mean, in the UK, a lot of PhD student shifts cover three years. 

00:33:29 

The university I was at certainly had an institutional model of expecting a sort of four-year journey. So although I tried to, also I had a three-year studentship, I very much went in thinking I'm paid for three years, so I will finish in three years. But that can be really difficult if, if the sorts of structures around you have an expectation that it takes four years to finish. 

00:33:55 

So what is halfway, is halfway 18 months into your three-year funded period or is it two years? And so in terms of wisdom, I don't know what I can say. Well, I can say that people should do ...Well, I can say and I want to acknowledge that I was incredibly lucky as well when it came to securing my first job after the PhD... 

00:34:19 

So about, I'd say probably about six months before I was due to submit my thesis, I decided to sign up for the job alerts on jobs.ac.uk, not to actively start looking and applying, but just to avoid missing out on something that might be perfect. So as sort of keeping my ear to the ground but not actively looking yet, period. 

00:34:50 

And I gave myself permission and I said this out loud to my partner as well. I will not start applying for jobs until after I have submitted the thesis and we agreed that that was okay. We were going to get through it even if there ended up being a few months gap between the two. But while I kept my ear to the ground, a job came up that sounded like they were describing me. 

00:35:17 

And I thought, okay, well, I have the skills. I have just literally used the datasets that they are looking for or that they will be using on this project for my thesis, I have to apply for this. This would be perfect. So that was the one application that I submitted before submitting my thesis. And yeah, having just said that, it sounded like they described me in the job spec. 

I did love that job, but I think that was luck. That was not like you can't plan for that. 

Keri 00:35:48 

That's cool. And I think that's, you know, lots of great tips in there. And maybe just to follow up then, how about you, Alina?  

Alina 00:36:07 

I, I probably did something similar to Jenny. I did sign up to jobs.ac.uk. I did not have an active Twitter account during my early PhD days, but I did get myself a Twitter account to start following job ads and I was surprised how many things I have heard about on Twitter before I even received any notification from jobs.ac.uk, some of them I've never seen on a jobs.ac.uk. 

00:36:27 

But also if you're looking outside of the UK, there... they're very rare, rarely come up on unless they've been, unless someone pays the jobs.ac.uk or you can get them on ResearchGate now as well. So I think ResearchGate shares job adverts around Europe, definitely, so that can be helpful. I personally went to all of, all of the early career mentoring, all breakfast meetings at the conference, so anywhere where you could show up with your questions and ask how to get the job or to just like say, hey, I'm here... I will be available very soon. 

00:37:01 

If you're apply for funding, think about me or if you just.. because a lot of professors or senior academics who get the funding, they are not allowed to say that they got it before the time comes. So it could be that they know that the position will be open in four months. They already know it. 

00:37:22 

They're not allowed to officially publish it anywhere, but they can tell you privately that there will be a position opened in four months and they can highly encourage you to apply for one. So that's also something that did happen during my... during one of the conferences, they said the project wasn't announced yet, but I was made aware that there will be one. 

00:37:41 

I did apply for it. I didn't get it, but it’s a learning curve. So it was kind of heads up. That will be a position and I just wanted to mention that UCL and other universities have a lot of different careers offers or sessions on how do you build your profile? How do look for jobs, how do you prepare for interviews? That will be a special episode where Keri and I will be talking about job interviews and preparation. 

00:38:06 

If you tune in for our future episodes. But that’s just something I wanted to briefly mention here. Keri, what was your strategy?  

Keri 00:38:21 

I don't think it was a real strategy per se. At least it's not a clean cut one... I came to the end of my PhD thinking, you know, or deciding still whether or not I wanted to stay in academia. 

00:38:28 

So I was certainly thinking, well, looking objectively at my skill set, which of these skills are transferable? How much of this especially, I guess, the quantitative side and methodology side of skills can I feasibly translate into, say, industry jobs? So I was at the time looking also and applying for quite a few jobs in large tech firms and maybe I should not mention their names and also actively applying to postdocs in academia. 

00:39:01 

So I was kind of playing both sides of the of the minutes coming to the end of a PhD thinking, let's give everything a shot. It was certainly not a strategy because it was very time-consuming. And also, I was trying to write up knowing that I, as an international scholar, had visa issues as well. So I literally would have been kicked out of the country right after I had my viva in the UK. 

00:39:26 

So I really wanted to make sure I had few maybe applications sent out before I did my viva. And I would say for those of you who are at that stage right now, it is quite scary. It's stressful, but as Jenny said, kind of rightly so. Looking back, I would probably choose to focus just on finishing the PhD and writing up, making sure that's solid and then where possible, I would suggest going for what the US or North American model would suggest these things called job talks. 

00:39:59 

So really kind of emailing the labs or PIs that are doing similar work in your area, introducing yourself shamelessly and asking whether or not you can go give a talk in their labs, for example, if they don't really know your work. I think that's a great way to showcase your research from the PhD and also to meet the people in different labs, different universities. 

00:40:25 

And for me it was a way of also seeing what the other university might look like and whether that's an environment I can see myself living in for the next 2 to 3 years as a postdoc. So reaching out to those PIs are also very helpful. Chances are they might have projects as Alina said, coming up, or even know of other people looking for postdocs at the time. 

00:40:50 

That will be super helpful and can well, at least remember your name and know that you're looking to flag up that opportunity. And finally, in the kind of last year of my PhD, I also knew that if I were to stay in academia, I'd probably need to brush up on teaching skills. So I also joined a course that was held by the Higher Education Academy, which allows PhD students doing supervisions to gain kind of teaching qualifications. 

00:41:18 

And I think having that on my application and my CV when I applied for that lectureship or post-doc in the future was also very helpful as well. So just a heads up that this is a qualification that can help I guess, identify that you have good teaching skills as well.  

Alina 00:41:37 

That's a very good hint. I didn't do it, I have to be honest. Never even heard about it before I started working at UCL, so have a look, have a look at that... whether that's offered at your university, for sure. We have only time for three more questions in this episode, unfortunately, and we've just discussed looking for a job and stuff. But there are many other moments along the journey and not just the PhD journey, generally your academic journey where we might feel down and especially say, after a journal or a conference rejection. 

00:42:06 

Jenny, would you share any personal tips with us on how to stay resilient on a bad day and keep the focus? And what keeps you going?  

Jenny 00:42:30 

Yes, many rejections, especially article rejections. I think my tip is to give yourself space and time to feel those feelings because rejection is tough. And as much as we might try to tell ourselves not to, that it's part of the process not to take it personally, we have feelings about it. 

00:42:37 

So I tend to first have this real sort of throw the feedback across the room type of reaction, get the rage out, stomp around, go for a walk, moan to a friend on the phone and not try and deal with the comments on the same day. Sometimes depending on the comments, not even on the same week. 

00:43:04 

Because I need to... If I try and address those comments and start editing that paper straight away, then I'll be defensive in my reply to say to the reviewers. Whereas if I just give myself time to process first, I end up seeing the helpful side of things, even if it's phrased a little bit unhelpfully, less than constructively. And then I can actually find the bits that will be helpful and it'll be a better outcome in terms of their like revision process as a result. So that's my top two... 

Alina 00:43:57 

I like how you said defensive. I want to say shout! And Keri would you add anything to it? 

Keri 00:44:08 

I think I would probably cycle through the same emotions as Jenny as well, especially if it's straight out. I mean, the quickest rejection I've ever gotten is probably a desk rejection within the day. So, you know, sometimes you can see it as, no, you know, I spent all this time formatting a paper or submitting it and thinking I can get it off my desk for a while. But really, you know, sometimes it's also a blessing in disguise because it could be that you quickly move through, you know, move that paper to a different home. I like to think that all of my papers will eventually find a home, and which is true, I think, when in the early days the rejection definitely was more painful and stuck with me a lot longer than it should. 

00:44:30 

But over time, certainly I would say the feelings go or subside. Once you get through more rejections ... you definitely build a thicker skin around the whole process as well. So ultimately it will get better. And I would say, yeah, you just have to keep... keep at it and keep trying. I think my longest paper that I tried to find a home for was something along the lines of two and a half years. 

00:44:58 

Many rejections and whatnot... But each time I think when I when I got it back, I just think, well, you know, it's belonged somewhere. I think it's useful knowledge for the field and I will find a home for it. And Alina, how about you?  

Alina 00:45:17 

Agree to every word you said and after moaning to friends and peers and shouting and screaming and crying and just getting this out of the system, I think it eventually gets easier. 

00:45:24 

And one thing I just remembered what helped and I can't remember that they do them anymore, but there are plenty of academic memes. Memes do help a lot. I remember visually and vividly seeing this rejection when you are a student, rejection, when you're a postdoc rejection, when you are professor, where the person didn't even blink when they got the rejection, so I felt like, I hope I'm going to reach this stage at some point where rejection comes. 

00:45:49 

I'm like, next. But yeah, absolutely. I think trying to remember that it's not personal, even though it feels that way, that it's about work and work does not define the whole of you is incredibly hard. 

Keri 00:46:09 

Yeah. So I guess the next part is sort of, you know, we're coming to the tricky part of the conversation, which is ChatGPT and AI versus academia. You know, that's one way of putting it. And I'm sure some will agree, some will disagree. Jenny, what's your take on the role of AI in academia and the learning process?  

Jenny 00:46:30 

So to put my cards on the table. I feel like maybe... Maybe, definitely. I'm a bit behind the curve on trying to trying out ChatGPT myself. 

00:46:34 

I've heard great things from colleagues who are very active in the sorts of new developments in the technology arena who've said that ChatGPT can be really useful in terms of generating code, streamlining the process. So I feel like I really need to get on that. So I've spent a bit more time thinking about AI in the learning process, and I think in the same vein as sort of it can be useful and streamline things. 

00:47:05 

I think AI can be a useful learning tool. Now, I'm not talking obviously about sort of a student uncritically doing a copy paste job of, hey AI, can you write my essay for me? But if it's used alongside sort of critical thinking to streamline the assignment process, so you're using Grammarly to proofread your assignment before submission or having quite a sort of iterative conversation with ChatGPT or an AI about suggesting readings or working through an essay outline. 

00:47:43 

I think that could be a powerful learning tool if the student’s critically engaging with it. So, you know, going through multiple steps and refining the prompts and sort of checking the text against the assignment description to make sure that they've hit all the criteria and things. Checking that all the references that the AI has suggested actually exist and do support the argument. 

00:48:07 

Yeah, if they're going through all of that, then I think surely learning is taking place and in which case I'm not entirely averse to it. But I think there are really interesting conversations about academic integrity and use of AI, both in research and in learning in higher education. And I think we need to involve students at all levels as well as obviously academics at all levels in these conversations. But I'm sure you've thought a lot more about these things than I have so far. So what are your thoughts? 

Alina 00:48:42 

I would say I agree with you, I'm always a big sceptic about change. And I, but I think I'm slowly changing my mind and I'm convinced that our jobs are not going to go away. I was just... I think I just wanted to recommend that there are some really, really good sources like Connected Papers, for example, that brings you, draws you a graph that links different papers that cited each other and that kind of are like key seminal readings. 

00:49:09 

So that's a very good tool when you can use ChatGPT or Cloud AI and other good tools to summarise complex concepts or remind you about... like, what are the welfare concepts and or say, what's the new developments. That can be very helpful. However, you need to be careful what you check in. And Cloud AI also has a cool feature that you can upload a paper and then you can ask to summarise it so it doesn't have to look for a gap. 

00:49:36 

It can be your own paper... it can help with like inspiration for discussion, for example. Keri, would you like to add anything else?  

Keri 00:49:56 

Yeah, I guess I'm coming up all of this kind of from also a teaching perspective. And I currently supervise the student led group called Education Innovation Entrepreneurship at UCL. And there's certainly a lot of excitement around learning about the possibilities and capabilities of AI and ChatGPT and learning and also teaching. 

00:50:06 

I think our students themselves are, many of them, especially the early adopters are actively trying out the technology... also I think creates that kind of thinking creatively about how that could be useful for their learning. So I think that itself is quite refreshing and also a good thing that's taking place. In terms of on the other end as a lecturer, you know, reading essays, I think, and looking at thinking about assessments, that's certainly something we are now trying to think outside the box a little bit more, considering alternative assessments that perhaps ChatGPT and AI won't have a good handle on. 

00:50:46 

And I think students need you know, we can’t expect students to not use this just like they're you know, everyone is expected to know how to use Google, for example. It is kind of here. And what we ought to be doing instead is to make students aware of the limitations and also strengths of the technology and see how they can actually use it in an ethical way as well as part of their learning. 

00:51:12 

So I'm for that kind of model of learning about the capabilities and applying it in an ethical way for their learning.  

Alina 00:51:26 

Thank you. Agree. I agree. Very important for teaching... And suddenly our episode is coming to an end. Now, while preparing for the season, we launched a small survey in our academic networks asking what advice our academic colleagues and friends would give themselves if they could go back in time. 

00:51:36 

So let's read a few of them and the rest you can find in our notes. So advice number one: Publish a paper, push to publish a paper; search for the right supervisor who at least is able to unleash your potential. That's really strong. Take annual leave like you would do in a job, otherwise you will burn out. Very good one. 

00:51:56 

Take care of your health. Focus on the kind and helpful people. Take less time to listen to you and try to understand people who put you down. Useful but not worth the energy. 

Keri 00:52:18 

Tip four: It's okay to do things again. If the week's writing turned out wonky, drop it in your file of offcuts and start anew. If the first round of funding didn't work out, reapply. If the seminar tanked, then try it with another spin next time. 

00:52:23 

Great advice. Make sure to focus on more than just your research. Try to gain experience with teaching, presenting at conferences, collaborating with others. All of these things are important for your development as an academic and also look great on your CV. You might not realise how much you've progressed during the PhD because it happens gradually and continuously but if you're learning and developing so much, one day you'll be in the stage and realize how much you progressed throughout your PhD. 

Alina 00:52:53 

So as I said, we will post all the answers in our show notes for you to read and I hope you find it useful.  

Keri 00:53:05 

Great. Jenny, we ask all our guests to share their tip of the day. For this episode, we ask you to think about the advice you would have given to your PhD self. What would that be? 

Jenny 00:53:11 

You know, I found this one really hard to try and think back what I would say if I met my 2015 self, right at the beginning of the journey. So I think after some consideration, I would want to give my past self a bit of a pep talk: just because you had a non-normative route into the PhD doesn't mean that you don't belong in academia. 

00:53:38 

Yes, there are weird unwritten rules and sort of peculiar clarities that you need to work out, but you don't need to leave your professional past and lived experience out the door. So the tip is tailor a sort of analysis of your own strengths and development needs in order to work out all of the skills that are directly transferable that I've already banked and then work out what I need to focus on and the sorts of terms the academic, academia specific competencies, so that I can ask my supervisor and other mentors for help specifically with those. 

Alina 00:54:19 

Thank you, Jenny. I hope that this is the advice that you will give to your future PhD students as well. Thank you for a lively discussion. 

Keri 00:54:28 

Thank you for listening to academia at all. I'm Keri Wong. 

Alina 00:54:31 

And I'm Alina Pelikh. 

Keri 00:54:35 

And joining us today was our lovely guest, Jenny Chanfreau. You can learn more about Jenny's research on Jenny's University of Sussex Profile or follow her on X or Twitter at @JenChanf and also on Bluesky Social, so @jenchanfreau.bsky.social. 

Alina 00:55:10 

This season has been brought to you with support from the Doctoral School Researcher Networks / Academic Societies Fund. And a quick favour before you go. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify we'd really appreciate if you could give the IOE podcast a rating. Five stars would be nice if you're really enjoying the show. And they will also help us to reach more people who would be interested in hearing about us. Thanks for listening. 

MUSIC 

Female voice 00:55:23 

Academia et al. is brought to you by the IOE’s Early Career Network. This podcast is presented by Dr Keri Wong and Dr Alina Pelikh. The theme music was created by Roni Xu. Amy Leibowitz is the series producer, and Sarah-Jane Gregori is the executive producer. 

00:55:56 

Thanks so much for downloading and listening to this IOE podcast.