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Join hosts Doctor Xand van Tulleken and Professor Rochelle Burgess for Season 5, Episode 1 of Public Health Disrupted with Chrissie Wellington OBE and Dr Flaminia Ronca.
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Running together: Parkrun & the transformative power of grassroots community fitness
Welcome back to a brand new season of Public Health Disrupted!
As Rochelle makes her return to the podcast following maternity leave, we’re excited to present the very first episode of Season 5: a fascinating examination and celebration of the power of movement to foster connection and belonging.
Xand van Tulleken and Professor Rochelle Burgess delve into the transformative world of community fitness events, particularly the groundbreaking success of Parkrun. They explore how grassroots initiatives are reshaping not only individual lives but entire communities by breaking down barriers to exercise and fostering social connections.
Joining them are Dr. Flaminia Ronca, leading expert in exercise neuroscience, and Chrissie Wellington OBE, a four-time world Ironman champion and former global head of health and wellbeing for Parkrun.
In this episode:
- the profound impact of community fitness on mental and emotional wellbeing
- the science behind exercise and brain health
- inspiring stories of how Parkrun has created inclusive spaces for all.
GUESTS
Chrissie Wellington OBE is a four-time World Ironman Champion and world record holder. Until recently, she served as the Global Head of Health and Wellbeing for parkrun, where she engaged people of all backgrounds, ages and abilities in events to address inequalities that impact many countries across the world. She remains committed to improving individual and population wellbeing.
Dr. Flaminia Ronca has a PhD in Human Physiology & Exercise and leads the Exercise Neuroscience Research Group (ENRG) at UCL. Her research has significantly influenced policy and decision-making in various contexts, from law enforcement to primary education. Dr. Ronca is passionate about social impact, having founded and directed a youth charity in Tottenham, London, which supported over 600 young people through mentoring, education, and sport.
TRANSCRIPT
Xand Vvn Tulleken: Hello and welcome to season five of Public Health Disrupted with me, Xand van Tulleken.
Rochelle Burgess: and me, Rochelle Burges. Xand is a doctor, writer and TV presenter. And I'm a community health psychologist and a professor of global mental health and social justice at the UCL Institute for Global Health. It is so wonderful to be back. I'm kind of in disbelief that we are in season five, but here we are.
Xand van Tulleken: Well, I, for one, am very relieved to have you back, Rochelle. You were badly missed by everyone. at the end of season four, I managed to hold it together. But you've been on maternity leave.
Rochelle Burgess: I did. I grew a baby. I had a baby. Now she's been months somehow, but, she's wonderful. So I missed you guys too. But I was still having fun, so.
Xand van Tulleken: You know, I'm thrilled. Well, I have a 10 month old and so I guess I'm two months ahead of you. But I can tell you it just gets better and better.
Xand van Tulleken: Which, you know, you know, so, so exciting. Well, look, we've got some fantastic topics lined up this season. Excellent guests who are going to add a heap of insight to these conversations. Rochelle, shall we remind our listeners of what Public Health Disrupted is all about?
Rochelle Burgess: Yeah, definitely. So this is a podcast about public health, but more importantly it's about the systems that need disrupting to make public health better. So please join us each month as we challenge the status quo of the public health field, asking what needs to change, why, and most importantly, how to get there.
Xand van Tulleken: In this episode, we're going to be having a conversation about the rise of community fitness events like parkrun, exploring how these movements have transformed not only individual lives, but entire communities. Our guests will discuss how grassroots organisations that break down barriers to exercise are crucial for enhancing our physical and our emotional well being. And what's happening inside our brains when we participate in these activities. And I should say just on the topic of, pregnancy, just as Dolly was entering, sort of, I'm m guessing, coming up to full term, we went to the park to do a little jog and we arrived at the park, we were like, oh, everything's closed. And it was Park Run. We just forgot it was Saturday and we joined in the Park Run and did the 5K, which was not our plan at all. And it was so joyful and great and so unexpected, literally we got literally swept along in this crowd and did the full thing, so. And we felt very included and wonderful. So I'm very excited to hear about the conversation today.
Rochelle Burgess: Okay, so our first guest today is Dr. To Flaminia Ronka. Flaminia has a PhD in Human Physiology and exercise and leads the Exercise Neuroscience Research Group at ucl. Her research has influenced policy and decision making in various contexts from law enforcement to primary education. She has previously founded and directed a youth charity in Tottenham, London which supported over 600 young people through mentoring, education and sport. Which is fantastic. I can't wait to hear more about that.
Xand Van Tulleken: And alongside Flaminia we are also absolutely delighted to welcome Chrissie Wellington obe, a four time world Ironman champion and world record holder. Until recently she served as the global Head of Health and well being for Parkrun where she engaged people of all backgrounds, ages and abilities in events to address inequalities that impact many countries across the world. And she remains committed to work that improves individual and population well being. welcome Familia and Chrissy, thank you so much for joining us.
Chrissie Wellington: Thank you so much.
Xand Van Tulleken: Thank you so much for having us. And Chrissy, it's an absolute honour and it's humbling to be in your presence. You know, I do beyond 10k. I don't think I do very much.
Rochelle Burgess: Yeah, you know, I still call myself a runner, but I haven't run for some time. I was not running during my pregnancy this time around because it was high risk and I really missed it. and one of the things I missed about it was, you know, you go for a run even if you're on your own and there's that runner's connection. You sort of see someone sort of coming at you and you just keep, there's a nod and you like, you see, you kind of see each other and know each other in like, I don't know, the joy and the suffering. Also, depending if you're going up a hill for me, but I just wondered if you could talk a little bit about the role of social connections like that and community support in the success of initiatives like Parkrunners.
Chrissie Wellington: Yeah. And once again thank you so much for having me on this show. It's really an honour to have been asked to speak about something that's so close to my heart. But as you can imagine, social connectivity, the creation of social capital, the creation of nurturing of relationships rather than, I think being a byproduct of Park Run. It's absolutely foundational and pivotal to the success of Part Run both in terms of the actual delivery and activation of the events and
00:05:00
Chrissie Wellington: then in terms of the impact that they can have. The Events to be activated require a small group of people to come together unified by this common purpose of creation of this opportunity within their community. And then obviously the beneficial impact of participating in Park Run. And when we talk about that, we talk about it from the perspective of volunteering, from walking, from running is that unification of people under that single banner, you know, of being a park runner. and that might be, you know, connection with yourself, connection with your environment and connection with, with other people. And when we talk about other people, it might be your family, it might be your, your friends intergenerationally, but it also might be people that you've never met and that. I think it's that power of people coming together and unified by that common endeavour and that common purpose that really is so powerful.
Rochelle Burgess: Yeah, I mean, I think we can often maybe underestimate the power of community, but also how, how much people are desperate for community. And so when we create these sort of opportunities that sort of, you know, that can emerge around things that build community in really unexpected ways. I think we need to do that more and more and more in, you know, the world that we're increasingly in today. And so, you know, just to hear you talk about, you know, that sort of. I keep using my hands. Listeners can't see me use my hands, the hippie thing.
Xand Van Tulleken: But like imagine Rochelle waving her hands.
Rochelle Burgess: Around M. But it is very much the things that bring us together and it feel intangible sometimes but then are made tangible in the acts that we're doing together. Does that feel not too hippie?
Chrissie Wellington: Yeah, I think it's having that common endeavour and that common purpose. and we all know that isolation and disconnect is the fact foundation of ill health. So the opposite must be true. That if we can forge those social connections, those deep, meaningful, purposeful, rich connections with people and with our whole community, that has to be foundational to really, you know, positive changes to lifestyle behaviours, to health and to longevity. And I think my experience in working for Part run, going to the events, experiencing that firsthand and then that being supported by research, really kind of brings home to me the, you know, how foundational relationships and connection are to our you know, to our overall health and well being and you know, if I may, I'll just mention that the, that Part run was founded on the very essence of connection. So it was founded by a man called Paul Centon Hewitt who was feeling isolated, lonely and disconnected for his community and so decided to organise this first 5k event in the park as a way of reconnecting with, with his social network. it wasn't about him getting fitter or you know, getting stronger physically. That might be a, you know, a nice side effect but really it was about developing and nurturing those, those connections and that still rings true today.
Xand Van Tulleken: Chrissy, can you just for listeners who don't know what Parkrun is or who maybe always found it a bit intimidating and thought, oh, presumably this is a group of semi professional athletes hammering around the park on a Saturday morning. Can you just explain how it works, how easy it is to get into it and can you just tell about your first encounter with it?
Chrissie Wellington: Yes. So parkrun is a global health and well being charity whose mission is to improve health and well being and they organise community based physical activity events. So they are 5k events on a Saturday and they are 2k junior park runs for children, young people and their families on a Sunday. And the model is really simple. For example, on a Saturday, every Saturday morning in a park close to you as you experience and you can happen upon a park run. There are over 850 across the UK and they're 5k. You can take part as a walker, a runner, a, ah, jogger, combination of all three or, or a volunteer. You don't have to come every week. You don't need any special clothing, any special equipment, don't need to tell anybody you're coming. You just register on the website, bring your barcode down and take part in whatever, you know, whatever ways suits you. So they're really accessible. There's very few barriers to entry because most
00:10:00
Chrissie Wellington: importantly they're free to to take part in Flaminia.
Xand Van Tulleken: Can I come to you for the way to exercise? Neuroscience helps us understand the impact of community fitness initiatives on our brain health and our cognitive function.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: You can. Before I get into the science, can I give my m little piece of N of one experience?
Xand Van Tulleken: No, we want the neuroscience now.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: No, no, I think an n of 1 is also very important contribution to science sometimes. no, I just, I was referring to earlier. I love what Rochelle and Chrissie were talking about. This, this sense of being a part of something bigger and the connection that you get with other people. If you think about running is quite an interesting one because it's an individual sports, right. You don't depend on a teammate, you don't depend on others, they don't necessarily support you directly but you're all in this movement together. and there's something that I think the British do very well, which is, you know, the London Marathon, and all the incredible support that you get when you're running a marathon, whether you're walking it or sprinting it or, you know, anywhere. and years ago, I decided to run my first marathon after a bout of pretty severe illness to support a charity. and I did the virtual marathon under lockdown. and all my colleagues are saying, oh, you know, it's gonna be miserable. You're not gonna get to that. You know, the intense support that you get from everybody around you. So you would download an app, you would stick your number on, and then you'd run around the city or wherever you were, or, you know, back and forth on your balcony to complete your marathon. So every once in a while, you would see somebody with a number on their. And we'd kind of wave at each other and then keep going and support each other. It was amazing. It was the best experience. So there's definitely something about moving together and suffering together. Maybe. Rochelle.
Rochelle Burgess: Yeah. My last half marathon that I ran, which is a very, very long time ago, was also my fastest. And I remember there was a guy that was. I didn't know, and I was sort of slowing down, right, that last sort of half kick, and he just came up and. And it was one of those people that's, like, crazy fit. And then they run it in these giant suits. So, like, he had, like, a hot dog suit on or something, and I was like, it's hot out. And I'm, like, dying. I've been running so hard. And. And he just sort of comes and jogs up and he goes, you're. It's hard, isn't it? And I'm like, oh, God, this is going to be my fast one. I don't know if I can do it. He's like, yeah, you can. We're gonna do it together. And he slowed down, and he ran the last bit with me and to get me. And if he hadn't, like, chose to connect with me, I might have walked it. I wouldn't have had my personal best. Like, you know what I mean? And I sort of. There is something that you're hinting at with this, that in your story, Flaminia, about, like, even psycholog, like, psychologically knowing someone was there for you even though you're. Even though you're by yourself, but you're not by yourself. Right? Like, and I think that. I mean, me and neuroscience broke up many, many, many years ago, but it was still very interesting.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: We never started a relationship, and I'M.
Rochelle Burgess: Just, you know, just to come back to what Xand was talking to us about, like, you know, what does neuroscience say about those? Like that connection?
Xand Van Tulleken: But also you're doing neuroscience in your brain, Rochelle. It's still happening in there.
Rochelle Burgess: It's happening to me, but I'm no longer in the papers.
Chrissie Wellington: No.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: I love this. Well, so if we're talking about, you know, emotions and how we connect with others and I guess how we regulate our own emotions, one of the things that we see in our research, which is a very positive outcome, is one of the brain regions that seems to benefit quite a lot from a bit of exercise. And when I say a bit of exercise, that's 15 minute, moderate intensity is enough. If you do more, then you get a bigger benefit. But that's, you know, that's very achievable about 15 minutes of, you know, trotting around or being on a bike. And one of the brain regions that responds very well to this, is also the same region that we use to rationalise and process our emotions, and make decisions, as part of our prefrontal cortex, or the frontal part of the brain. and so there's, you know, I think, this beautiful story where you do get, an immediate response from this part of the brain. So you're probably in a better place to process your emotions. Once you've done a bit of exercise or while you're exercising, then what you do with that part of the brain is up to you. But what's nice to know is that it is, it is being supported and it's working better. and, one of the things that we are finding pretty consistently in our research is that that same part of the brain also improves when we get fitter. So it's not just the correlation effect and it's not just an immediate effect. but it's nice to know that when we get fitter, our brain does adapt and we do see some biological processes that enable it to function. So, ah, hopefully we can then use it, to whether it's to process our emotions, regulate our behaviour and make the right decisions, hopefully. So I think that's one of many very, nice, positive aspects of what physical activity
00:15:00
Dr Flaminia Ronca: does to our brain. Another thing that we find pretty consistently, if we purely focus on biology, it seems to be that people who carry less body fat and have a higher cardiovascular fitness benefit even more from that little bout of exercise. From a brain perspective, right, we see an increase in brain activity, we see faster reaction times More accuracy on a series of cognitive tasks. you might be thinking, okay, well some people listening might think I'm quite sedentary. So actually you see, that's why I'm not benefiting. But the good news is that if we get fitter, our brain works better. So if we stick at it, there are adaptations that happen in our metabolism, in our physiology. And some studies also show some adaptations in our brain and what's called the endocannabinoid system that enable us to draw a greater benefit and a greater boost from that, that little 15 to 30 minute session of exercise. So it's getting, getting over that first hurdle is quite important.
Chrissie Wellington: Could I ask a question? Are those benefits greater than if that exercise is done outdoors and socially? So can you kind of magnify the benefits of exercise if you're then connected with others and you're connecting with your environment as you're doing it?
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Yeah, I love that question and I think absolutely, yes. So the more elements that you add to this, you know, you've got exercise as a very controlled situation and then the more elements you add to it, the more your brain is engaged in different ways. So if you add the social connection element, you're, you're engaging with other people around you. If you're outdoors, you're having to navigate to space around you. and there's also an element of, I guess mind wandering and which enables creativity. So if you are in a moving space rather than in a treadmill staring at, at a wall, if you're moving around, you're navigating, you're using processes, that help your brain, let's say continue to function well and make sure that it's keeping those cognitive, functions active. Navigation is quite important if we're thinking about preventing cognitive decline, for example. so yes, that's what one would call an enriched environment if you're studying with mice, but with humans it's adding people, adding being outdoors. And there's lots of research that actually looks just beyond exercise, just living close to a green space, living close to bodies of water. and it seems that the people that have the better, the best mental health are the ones who live close to a green space with a blue space. So being close to something that has a bit of a river or pond in it, we seem to benefit quite a lot from that. So absolutely, go for your run outdoors, you know, get your rain gear and go outside. It's absolutely worth it.
Rochelle Burgess: People talk about this thing called the runner's high. And Chrissy, maybe, maybe your whole career is embedded in the idea of a runners.
Chrissie Wellington: I'm just constantly on a high.
Rochelle Burgess: That would explain the ability to do the iron man, I think, anyway, the physical, you know, like, so is that real? If you could both talk about it, like laminia. If you could talk about it, like, you know, if there's a research thing behind it. And then Chrissy, like, you know, I wonder if you could talk about the runner's high. And also if, like a collective runner's high, if that's a thing.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Ooh, that's an experiment. So in terms of research, I think there isn't enough research on this, but there is a bit of research that looks at just feelings of euphoria after exercise and what drives that, et cetera. and there are some very interesting studies if you piece it all together. so when we run we all talk about endorsement and how we produce a series of chemicals and hormones that make us feel better. but there's also research now focusing on something called endocannabinoids, which are neurotransmitters, that essentially make us feel good. They give us that sense of euphoria and we produce them. It sounds a lot like, cannabis because it produces very similar effect, similar molecule, but, ah, it's endogenous version of it. So we produce it when we exercise. Now what's interesting is that people who are fitter seem to have a, greater boost from this system who, after they run. So they have what we call greater receptor availability. And so somehow they get a much bigger boost in this endocannabinoid system when they exercise. again, correlation causation unclear. These are all cross sectional studies, but there are some animal model studies that show an adaptation in the endocannabinoid system when they made the mice fitter. So they got lots of little mice to run around on their, on their wheels. and when they became fitter, they gained more receptor availability in the system. So I would like to think that the reason why people who are already into running are the only ones that are getting this sensation of runner's eye. If you tell this to somebody who's never run before, they won't know what you're talking about. And that's maybe because our brain needs to be able to adapt our metabolism,
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Dr Flaminia Ronca: our body needs to be able to, to put up with that level of exertion. So there's lots of, lots of different elements to it.
Chrissie Wellington: And, can that be addictive Can. Can those. The chemicals actually. Right, yeah. That's the high. But wanting to. To satiate that continuously as well.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Yes. In a very simplistic way. if there's something that's giving us a boost in dopamine, if there's something that's giving us a sense of reward, then we do tend to get addicted to these things. And there are personalities that are more or less easily addictive. but exercise is a very healthy thing to want to keep going back to.
Rochelle Burgess: We talk a lot about negative things that give us those dopamine highs like mobile phones and the scrolling and you know, that kind. That other brand of research or another side of research around dopamine highs linked to mobile phones. And the brain just kind of keeps doing. It sort of gets in these loops. Loops. A much better loop to get in with running in the. In the outside.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Absolutely. And the Parkrun, where people are not judging you, they're welcoming you. And there's people of. There will always be somebody who's slower than you, which I love. And it's a welcoming, supportive environment where everybody can go and move around a bit. And I think that breaks a lot of barriers to the first step.
Chrissie Wellington: And what it does also is reclaim the concept of movement. I think, obviously, contrary to the name, you can walk, you can jog and you can volunteer and all are, considered equal forms of participation. And that's really important. And I think, I love the fact that public health is increasingly signposting people to exercise and physical activity. But I worry that it medicalizes it. And what I like to do is reclaim the concept of movement, integrate movement within daily life and encourage people to come to Parkrun, even if they don't want to take part as a walker or a runner, they can come along and volunteer. They're in the park, they're outside, they're connecting with others, they're moving around. And that's so important. If they don't want to volunteer, come along and watch because you're integrating within a community. And that's as valuable, I think, to public health as, someone that can run 5k in 20 minutes, which is. Is obviously beyond the realms of possibility for the majority of people. And I think that can be a real barrier. So if we can reclaim movement and integrate movement within daily life and make it acceptable not to just to have to do structured movement, but. Or structured exercise, I should say, I think that will be beneficial not only for the individual, but the population level in terms of public health.
Xand Van Tulleken: It's so interesting. I feel like what you're both saying is quite inspiring. I don't mean that in a grandiose way. I just literally mean you're making me want to go and go for a jog this afternoon, which is great. The combination of sort of benefit and community effect as well. Can you talk about any specific examples of this sort of community exercise having an impact on people's lives?
Chrissie Wellington: I mean Parkrun has a huge data set of examples. You know you got 200,000 people every weekend taking part, including 30,000 volunteers. so there's an incredible pool of amazing, amazing examples. ah, I've got a couple I'll share. the first is ah, a woman who sadly passed away. Now her name's Elizabeth Maris. And in the latter years of her life Elizabeth was in a care home next to Bushy park in, in London. And every Saturday her carers would whee her down to Bushy park for the start of the park run. And she sat on the same corner And Bushy park has over a thousand people every Saturday. And people would be high fiving and waving at Elizabeth and Elizabeth would be high fiving them back and cheering and clapping and she was given a high vis vest and given the title of Marshall and, and she felt so embedded within the community. She was getting birthday cards and Christmas cards and obviously the outpouring of support on her passing was just a testament to the connection she had and the value that she brought to the Parkrun community. And Elizabeth didn't walk and she didn't run but she volunteered and she was as valuable and as connected to any other part runner as you know, someone that was on that physical start line. So that to me, I mean I always, always talk about her and I always you know, remember her and the impact that she's had on me and the park run, family. And I guess my second example leans
00:25:00
Chrissie Wellington: into something that I feel really fortunate to have led on and that's the the activation of park runs on the custodial estate. So in 2017 we launched our first park run in a prison, ah, HMP Haverig in in Cumbria. And we now have over 30 in prisons and young offender institutions in the UK and around the world. They're so uplifting in so many ways and physical health and mental health, emotional health, the forging of relationships between prisoners, between staff, between prisoners and their family, the development of self esteem and confidence and the sense of purpose and we hope Also reducing that kind of cycle of reoffending by giving the ex offender on release a really welcoming, as you said, Flaminia, this welcoming, non judgmental community to be part of which is so valuable in helping to reduce that cycle of reoffending.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: I think from a young person's perspective, following on from what you're saying Chrissie, there's very much a personal discovery element to it. Just exercising together, whether it's running or football or boxing or whatever we do to move together, dancing. I think we learn from a structured perspective. We can use it as mentorship and to guide people but we learn how to communicate with others and we learn how to support others and how to deal with these personal relationships. And also I think there is an element of personal growth in it. I've seen so many young people just really develop in their self esteem and their self confidence just by doing a bit of sports and being supported by others when they didn't really believe in themselves and finally scoring the goal or having that achievement. I think from my perspective, a, ah, personal story I have that I hold very dear to my heart is So we used to play football quite a lot with young people up in Tottenham. And there were sometimes some challenges between neighbourhoods and groups, let's say. so I built a very nice relationship with the local police officers and I said well, why don't you come and play football with us? And I thought it was a great idea. I think, oh, this is great. We'll have footballers, we'll have young people and police officers playing football together. so they show up, they bring a whole team, all the bobbies on the be. and usually what happens because we had so many, it was usually about say 45 young people. So there would be two teams playing and then everybody sitting around the pitch just waiting for their turn to play. police officers arrive and they turn around and young people are gone. There's nobody there. so they had just gone and hidden behind the wall somewhere or gone to the other side of the pigeon. They didn't want to have anything to do with the police, they didn't want to be anywhere near them. So the first day was very tense let's say. but after that, you know, we all went and had a meal together and there were some very deep discussions that came up around racial profiling around discrimination and behaviour of police versus young people and how they communicate with each other. and they became very good friends and long story short, several months down the line there were instances where young people who felt uncomfortable in situations that they had been through felt, they felt that they were able to go to the police to report something that had happened to them or to a friend simply because, let's, John Doe was their friend. They didn't see John Doe as a police officer, but as a friend. And therefore they felt comfortable enough to go and report and get support. so I think this is an example of how sports can connect us in very, very different ways and benefit society from a bigger perspective. I think.
Rochelle Burgess: I think that's such an amazing story that really highlights one of the things that I teach a lot with community like that actually two things. You sort of, you never, you never belong to just one community ever. You are sort of a constellation of communities. And so you always need to be sort of like continuously in search for the different ways that you connect to people. and also that you, that community is live. So you sort of are always building new community as you go. and so, you know, both of those examples really highlight for me the, the power of building new community. Building new communities in unexpected places where you wouldn't expect that community to exist or would sort of struggle to. And the way that sport becomes that connector or the platform for a new community to be built. That's beautiful. That's amazing. I love seeing theory in action and that's basically like community theory in action. Yeah, it's
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Rochelle Burgess: amazing.
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Absolutely.
Xand Van Tulleken: It's a lovely thing, Chrissie, that you, you talked about sort of reclaiming movement. You can do amazing things with community fitness, but perhaps the, almost the hallmark of it doing well is that it becomes an assumed, taken for granted part of everyday life in the community.
Chrissie Wellington: Yeah, it's, you know, I think it has become routine and it's become such an important part of, of people's lives and foundational not just to their fitness but to their whole sense of self and ah, and connection. But so much obviously goes into putting on these, these very, very simple, sustainable, scalable events and whilst they're free to take part in, they're definitely not free to put on and you know, there's a huge amount that goes into the delivery of, of those events both by the incredible volunteers that do so each week and, and then the head office staff that you know, keep those wheels in motion.
Xand Van Tulleken: Can you talk about that? the model is so impressive to me. I know you talked about separating it from health initiatives, but I think if you, if you Have a public health mindset in the broadest sense and go, well, look, we are concerned with all these aspects of people's health. How can you take something like the model of Parkrun and apply it to other things? Are there sort of generalizable lessons that you've got from it?
Chrissie Wellington: I think the beauty of Parkrun is in its simplicity. you know, it's a very simple model that although has been slightly nuanced, has not really changed foundationally from the first event in 2004. You think about the London Marathon and the complexity and the expense of putting that on. and Part Run makes it really simple for communities to deliver their own events. so I guess on the supply side it's removing barriers, but on the demand side in terms of participation, as we've talked about, it doesn't remove every single barrier. There are still barriers to participation for people and groups, but it minimises as many barriers to participation as possible in the ways we've talked about. So all of the things that, you know, people might find, as points of friction are removed by Part Run. And I think one important element is the fact that it's not intimidating, it's not a race you haven't got a number on. And for many people that are taking their first steps to health, having a non intimidating, non judgmental environment where they can move in whatever way they want is really, is really, really important. But Parkrun still has a lot of work to do. It's still only inclusive for those that it includes, so needs to become more accessible to a wider variety of people so as to maximise its health and well being impact. And I think it's really important that the charity integrates a lot more deeply with Public health and Part and Public health is able to leverage Parkrun and leverage Parkrun as an opportunity for those that need it, patients and staff, for those that need it to be more connected, to be outside and to be more active. Because like you said Dan, Park Run's there, it's in thousand communities across the uk, it's there. So let public health leverage it, use it and benefit from it. because it's, it's a resource that I think shouldn't be taken for granted but does need to be be leveraged by those that need it most.
Xand Van Tulleken: Rochelle, do you want to ask the last question?
Rochelle Burgess: Are we there already?
Xand Van Tulleken: Well, I think I'm just looking at the clock and everyone's time. I think, I think, I think we're there.
Rochelle Burgess: Okay, let's do it. This has been absolutely fantastic, like, really amazing. Ah, as Xand said, I feel like I need to go and lace up my now dusty running shoes and just, just get back out there. But you know, one thing, as we wrap up the, the episode, and as we've wrapped up every episode, we, we ask our guests, because we're always interested in disrupting thinking not just in public health, but life more broadly. So we ask every guest to talk about a piece of art, music or poetry or something that has disrupted your own perspective in looking at the world. Flaminia, can we start with you?
Dr Flaminia Ronca: Okay, well, I'm going to continue on the theme of red and hot. Xand just raised, so I was a teenager and I went to a very, very big, ah, arts expo with my father. and my dad likes to play a game where after we go to a museum or a place, he goes, oh, what's the one piece of work that you would like
00:35:00
Dr Flaminia Ronca: to take home with you? And so he asked you that question. I said, oh, it was, you know, there was this beautiful, Escherian painting, m, with very strong contrast, like very bright oranges, very dark blacks, and this geometrical, almost impossible geometrical figure, like something Escher would have created. So I said, that's the one I would take home. And my dad said, oh, that's the one I would have taken home as well. He got so excited, he went back in and bought it. So I think, in short, my artist is Escher. and I think Escher is a perfect example of disruptive thinking. It is about making connections where tradition tells you there can't be any connections and challenging the impossible. And I think if we want to improve public health, we do need to really think outside the box and be truly disruptive sometimes.
Rochelle Burgess: That's fantastic.
Xand Van Tulleken: I love that.
Chrissie Wellington: Oh, how do I follow that?
Xand Van Tulleken: Just share your playlist from your world record breaking.
Chrissie Wellington: It's far too embarrassing to share my playlist.
Xand Van Tulleken: No, I think that's the most intimate thing anyone can ever do is share a gym playlist. I would never let anyone know what I work out to.
Chrissie Wellington: No, absolutely.
Xand Van Tulleken: I love that. You're like the world record holder for like more than a decade. You're still like, no, no, I'm not going to show you my compilation.
Rochelle Burgess: No, no.
Chrissie Wellington: And for my ear, mine is linked to, my professional sporting career. So when I was, when I was 30, I kind of pivoted. So I was a civil servant. I was working on international development policy for the government and triathlon found me Or I found triathlon and I became a professional triathlete. And I remember my. My coach saying to me, look, Chrissie, physically you've got what it takes, but I'm going to cut your. I'm going to need to cut your head off if you're going to become a champion. Which was, I think, a slightly macabre way of telling me I had a lot of work to do psychologically. and following that, he gave me a copy of Rudyard Kipling's poem if, which, if you look beyond, I think the sexism and the misogyny has to me some really, really important messages about not only how I should have conducted myself as an athlete, but how I should live my life. And I still have a copy of that poem, and it still disrupts my thinking, to this day, I think, you know, it calls for humility and composure, for resilience and the belief in the power of failure to teach us as much as success. So for me, this poem M is just so foundational to my career as an athlete, and it still is today.
Xand Van Tulleken: I think that's fantastic. It's. All these things are sort of so open to interpretation. I've never thought of it as a, as an athlete's poem before, so that's fantastic. Well, both of you, thank you so, so much.
Rochelle Burgess: It was brilliant. Thank you.
Xand Van Tulleken: Thank you.
Chrissie Wellington: Thank you. It's a pleasure.
Rochelle Burgess: You've been listening to Public Health Disrupted. This episode was presented by me, Rochelle Burges and Xand Van Telekin, produced by UCL Health of the Public and edited by Annabelle Buckland at Decibelle Creative. Our huge thanks again to today's guests, Flaminia Ronca and Chrissie Wellington.
Xand Van Tulleken: And if you'd like to hear more of these fascinating discussions from UCL Health of the Public, make sure you're subscribed to this podcast so you don't miss future episodes. Come and discover more online and keep up with the school's latest news, events and research. Just Google UCL Health of the Public. This podcast is brought to you by UCL Minds, bringing together UCL knowledge, insights and, expertise through events, digital content and activities that are open to everyone.