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Drawing on lived experience, academic research, and grassroots activism, this episode highlights the importance of belonging, place-based identity, and social infrastructure in men’s mental wellbeing.
Discussed in this episode:
- The origins and objectives of a UCL Grand Challenges-funded research project on male mental health
- How Space North East provides vital support to men in Sunderland through peer-led spaces
- Why traditional ideas of masculinity still shape attitudes to vulnerability and help-seeking
- The legacy of deindustrialisation and its impact on local identity and mental health
- The case for treating mental health as a structural issue, not just a personal one
- How community-based initiatives can complement overstretched clinical services
- Emerging insights from the research and their potential to inform regional and national policy
Featured in this episode:
- Host: Jade Hunter – Coordinator, UCL’s Grand Challenge of Mental Health & Wellbeing
With special thanks to our guests: - Professor John Tomaney – UCL Bartlett School of Planning, Pro-Provost for Regional Communities
- Dr. Dimitrios Panayotopoulos-Tsiros – Research Associate and Honorary Research Fellow, UCL
- James Fildes – Founder and Managing Director, Space North East
Resources:
- Learn more about UCL Grand Challenges
- Visit Space North East
- Read about the project’s progress and future outputs via the Grand Challenges Mental Health and Wellbeing page
Disruptive Voices is a podcast from UCL Grand Challenges, proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative.
Transcript
Jade: Hello and welcome to this episode of Disruptive Voices from UCL Grand Challenges. I'm Jade Hunter, your host and I'm the coordinator for UCL's Grand Challenge of Mental Health and Wellbeing. In this special episode for Mental Health Awareness Week I'll be speaking to Professor John Tomaney, Dr. Dimitrios Panoyotopoulos-Tsiros and James Fildes. The theme for Mental Health Awareness week 2025 is community. Today's experts will be discussing their collaborative project on the value of non-clinical interventions to improve mental health and wellbeing. The project is focused on community led interventions which are aimed at fostering belonging in working class men in the northeast of England. John is Professor of Urban and Regional Planning in the Bartlett School of planning and is UCL's Pro Provost for Regional Communities. Demetrios is a Research Associate and Honorary Research Fellow at the Bartlett School of Planning. And James is founder and Managing Director of Space North East, a men's mental health organisation in Sunderland. So thank you all very much for joining me today. To start John could I ask you to provide a brief overview of the project please and how does it connect to previous research?
John Tomaney: Well the project connects to previous research in the sense that it goes right back to before the pandemic when we undertook a piece of work sponsored by Grand Challenges which looked into this idea of left behind places. Around that time what became clear to us was that there was a new discourse emerging about the existence of these left behind places. We heard the term used in the media by politicians and so on and there was very little academic work around that time which was addressing this issue. But what this debate pointed to was the existence of communities which had largely been left out of the economic growth which had occurred from the end of the 1990s and through the 2000s until the financial crisis thereafter had disproportionately been affected by the impact of austerity. So what you had were these places which had very high levels of social and economic deprivation. So we began a series of studies off the back of the Grand Challenges project, looking in detail in one place a village in County Durham, trying to understand what was going on in that place. and a couple of things emerged from that. One is that we got a better understanding of how in certain kinds of communities which were characterised by high levels of disadvantage, it wasn't just the material aspects of disadvantage which were important. There were strong feelings about this. These were places which felt neglected. and we wanted to understand what that feeling of neglect was all about. These were places that felt as if they'd been forgotten about or overlooked and so on. And the second thing which came out of it, which was really important, was the sense that the economic disadvantage, which was well recorded, was accompanied by a whole series of other forms of disadvantage, notably in relation to health, and in particular in relation to mental, health. So the current project starts from that basis, but it addresses a really important issue which is that there are very high levels of mental health in some communities. And we focused in on one issue which is suicide and in particular male suicide. Most suicides ah, ah, are committed by men. But what the statistics show is there's a very marked geography of suicide. So originally the northeast of England, which is where we've been working, looking at one village in particular, has a very high rate of male suicide and this is concentrated in the most disadvantaged or, most working class places. it has a suicide rate twice that of London. So what you have here is a sort of health crisis in plain sight, which isn't really being widely discussed. what we also have become aware of through our work is that within communities in the northeast are fantastic projects which are underway to try and address these problems, often coming out of the communities themselves. So the NHS is busy in this space. Lots of other organisations are in this space, but we're interested in these organisations which are rooted in communities and which are trying to find solutions to these problems. So our research is really focused on this issue. how do these community responses develop? How effective are they? How can they be better supported?
Jade: Brilliant, thank you. And then sort of to provide some additional context, I wondered if I could ask you, James, a bit more about the work of Space North East and why you wanted to be involved in this collaborative project.
James Fildes: So, Space
00:05:00
James Fildes: NorthEast, have been around for about three years now. So we started off in April 2022. We're an organisation that supports men with depression, stress, loneliness, anxiety, to name a few issues. We provide free support. Importantly, you know, John covered the issue quite well there. but a lot of the things John discussed I was, I guess, acutely aware of. Growing up in Sunderland, a lot of my friends suffered with mental health challenges. They weren't particularly open about it, but it was evident to see I've had friends that have taken their own lives and I unfortunately suffered with depression for a very long time. and I thought, you know, as I grew up experiencing depression and experiencing These feelings, I did start to become more aware of the lack of infrastructure around, ah, supporting people like me. there wasn't much in the way of. There was. There was the NHS, obviously, but waiting lists were often talked about, which actually, it would put you off. When you'd hear about waiting lists, it would put you off actually accessing the support. and especially when we talk about community support, it wasn't particularly there. Attitudes were slightly different back then. You know, though I was probably 16 when things started for me and attitudes, believed or not, were different. Even just that short time ago, things have changed a lot. So as I, you know, as a group experiencing depression and I ultimately became suicidal, the biggest thing for me was, you know, who do I speak to? Because I speak to my family. But you do feel like a burden. That's a, that's a real thing, a real burden. You don't want to put pressure on people. It's also hard to open up about. It's not an easy thing to talk about, especially when you're in society. You know, your social status, I guess, is you've painted a picture of yourself to society and your family, of this is who I am. But on the inside it's actually quite different. So it's difficult to then disrupt that image, you've portrayed of yourself. So the, the moment for me, I guess, came when I decided to tear all that down and see I need some help. So I went to the doctors and asked for help because I needed it. And then when I was faced with the, the waiting list scenario, you know, it was probably going to be a good. I think she said it was eight months to a year that I might be seen. It was a tough. It was a tough pill to swallow because it would take me 10 years to open up and see I need some help. And then when I did the, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't gold standard waiting list, you know, it was a long time. I didn't feel that I had that long. Luckily I got to see a counsellor quick and because I'd been in the Royal Air Force, I'd, I got my waiting time slashed, so I got to see some help and anyway, life got better. So I decided to set Space North East up, you know, when, when I had recovered because, you know, I decided I need to help other people who are in this situation rather than wait for somebody else to do it. I think why don't I try and do it? All I needed was a space to talk. All I needed was to share my story with other men and feel understood and feel heard and meet people who knew how it felt. So I did that. Set Space North East up. In April 2022, we had our first support group. Had about eight lads turn up and it was genuinely a magical moment. We had men who had never met each other opening up about things they'd never spoken about in their entire life. And I knew at that moment that this was going to be something fund. So we ran with it and then, you know, over, over the, the past three years we've helped almost a thousand people now, delivered countless hours of free support and we do water in groups, everything. So, you know, it's been from Sunderland in the northeast. Very aware of living in, in a, in a city that is post, is a post-industrial city. I guess. You know, we were built on industry and beyond anymore, which leaves a population of people who feel identity less and bored and a skilled population with nowhere to apply a trade. So, you know, very aware of that growing up. but hopefully things are changing anyway. And so, yeah, that's probably Space Northeast in a bit of a nutshell.
Jade: So James, the, the men that you're working with, are they all different ages? Is there a particular group that you're working with specifically?
James Fildes: We, we work with just men over 18, but we have lads as young as 19, 18 and we have men as old as, you know, 60 plus 70. 70 actually. So it's totally varied. And even our support volunteers, we've got lots of, lots of different age groups of people who support us. But the people we support come in all ages, all demographics. you know, it's, it's, it's clear that life at different stages poses different challenges. And you know, the support that these people need quite often doesn't change. You know, a lot of these lads need some to feel heard, they need a safety net, a support group, a group of men who, you know, there's something really important and poignant to be said about opening up about your, your troubles and your problems in a room full of people that don't know who you are because the mask isn't there. And
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James Fildes: that worry of that persona you've created in society isn't there. It's just very, it's very raw and it's very you, but it's also very helpful. It's very cathartic and it really provides a, a really deep level of support and growth and development. So yeah, I mean we, we get, we get everybody. I mean there is, there is no way to categorise who comes to our group. The only way I could describe it is me.
Jade: And do you think that there's something important about the geography of that as well? You spoke about geography and identity and the role of kind of being in a de industrialised area. Is that a cross-cutting thing across the people that you work with?
James Fildes: Without a doubt. You know, I wrote a bit of an article about this actually, because it's something that's so, it's so evident to me now, working with these lads, you know, a lot of the problems that we're dealing with, they are you know, these are problems that have arisen through their own lives. Could be job loss, familial loss and grief could. It could be a range of problems. But also it's underpinned by, you know, there's a real culture, especially in the Northeast I think of. And I grew up knowing this. You were told to be tough. I, think it'd be tough. You're told, people have heard, you know, been told man up. We've been told man up before. the vulnerability, the willingness to be vulnerable is really, it's a really tough place to get to growing up where we grew up. Because if you think, you know, during the 1988, I think was the last shipyard that closed. It wasn't that long ago. If you think of the, the mentality that was needed growing up in County Durham as a miner, as an eight or nine year old going into the mines in County Durham and growing up there for a full career or working on the shipyards, the mentality you needed to get by was probably appropriate for the time, you know, you had to get up and go. There was no alternative and it was suck it up, let's just go and do it. Yeah, you had to do that. And that was appropriate for those times. Now things are different. We live in a much more developed society. We don't have to do those jobs anymore. We don't have to. People do them as a choice, but we don't have to. So, you know, ultimately, we're left with a society where people get a lot more choice, a lot more freedom, but the attitude towards suffering, it still remains the same. which, which you know, if you're left with people who don't have employment and they are struggling and they're being told to man up, or they're being told to get on with it, or you know, the support infrastructure is now. Which is the real issue. I think that's challenging. It's really challenging. And as John rightly pointed out, London has the lowest. I think, I think it's just about the low suicide rate in the country. and then you've got the North East slash North West which have the highest. That doesn't surprise me because I think, you know, talk about left behind places. There is a feeling and you just walk down a high street in the northeast of England you'll feel left behind places everywhere there are liars. And the places that Newcastle which thrive in and Sunland is doing, having a bit of a, sort of a renaissance. But people do feel left behind and I think, you know the, the fact that the lack of investment post-industrial era is evident, you know, a lack of opportunity, lack of infrastructure around healthcare and support and that ultimately brings more issues, ultimately brings more problems. Mental health does seem. Poor mental health, I should say sorry, does seem to thrive in, in deprived areas and unfortunately the Northeast has some of the most deprived areas in the country. you look at deaths of despair up here is you know, once again one of the highest when it comes to deaths of despair. So yeah, there's a lot of issues and it's very complex and there's not one answer I think to any of it.
Jade: And thinking about the project as well. So why did you want to be involved in the collaborative project?
James Fildes: Well, it goes back to, it goes back to what thought I'd had when I set space up was, you know, I'd had this thought of, well there's clearly an issue here. Am I going to wait for the government to sort that out? Probably, not. I think why don't I try it myself. So you know, when the opportunity came about to, for us to highlight the issues here to you know, a global organisation which, you know, I guess, such as UCL and work with somebody like no, John Tomaney, I think it was an opportunity we couldn't necessarily miss. It would be nice to give a voice from the Northeast to a big stage. You know we've got University of Sunderland, the University of Sunderland's fantastic. Do a lot of work with them now, looking at delivering free public lectures and whatnot on male psychology and male mental health, which is really important work. But I think ultimately there's a much there's a much more strategic piece of work to be done. I think highlighting the issues here and validating
00:15:00
James Fildes: why what we do works, how it works and then seeing, you know, there's a part to play here for community led organisations now I approached John and I approached them with this. I say, you know, there's community led interventions are a huge part here and I know anecdotally that there are people on a waiting list who maybe don't need to be seen or been on that waiting list. What they might need is just some support. They need a support network, they need a community, they need people around them to chat to and feel supported. Those people just need that. They maybe don't need to see a therapist or a counsellor but unfortunately that is the, the only pathway it feels like at the moment. So if we can really validate what community organisations are doing and highlight their services, it not only takes some of the stress off the NHS but it can provide some really valuable validated support on the interim period while they wait to be by a professional. So I think, you know, that's the real motivation for us to do this is we, I, I know what we do works, I know that intuitively and I know that from anecdotally through ah, what I do day to day. And I know it works not only in our organisation but in many others providing lots of different community support. So if we can highlight and shine light on these people doing this important work, validate why what they do works, hopefully that can open some more doors and get people to support they need.
Jade: So we've kind of spoken a bit about why the work is so important in the Northeast and particularly focusing on masculinity. And Dimitrios, I wondered if you could say something from your perspective why it's important that the project focus specifically on working class men in the Northeast.
Dimitrios: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the key point to drive here is that we're really staring at sort of growing mental health epidemic. So James mentioned the deaths of despair, so deaths from suicide and drug or alcohol related deaths. and these, these are according to recent statistics they are again the highest in middle aged men, particularly between 45 and 55 year old and so the obvious question then is what makes middle aged working class men in our case looking at the Northeast, particularly vulnerable to that. and part of the answer is really the, the picture that both James and John painted. So kind of these regions are disproportionately affected by the industrialisation and a compelling alternative I think to kind of that work was never really offered. So when manual labour jobs disappeared, industries closing, the end of mining and so on, the people working in these industries also lost their identity together with their job or part of their identity I should say, which is an extremely traumatic thing to start to go through. So just to give some more context, sort of historical context, when you look at the 1980s, right, the highest rates of suicide related deaths were predominantly observed among adults in the 60s, 70s and 80s. and you know, thinking about those times, those reflect some extent that the lived experiences that they had kind of going through two world wars, great depression and so on. By the 1990s and the 2000s sort of this trend shifts and then those that are particularly affected by it are between the 30s, in the 30s and 50s, which sort of corresponds with the restructuring of the UK's economy. Again, the industrialization or the start of the industrialization and declining of manufacturing sectors and so on, which shifted really towards a service-based economy which disproportionately affected individuals that were working into these manufacturing and industrial jobs. Now by 2023 that trend has shifted towards people age 45 to 54. and one explanation of that is really that it's been driven by the accumulation of social and economic pressures that are linked to midlife. So the, when we look at this context and we link it to sort of the difficulty to also open up and also access mental health services, then it's almost like a perfect storm if you want. And so the project really zooms in on this group, this age group, because they're really at the sharp end if you want of a growing crisis. And there also seems to be kind of a specific connection really between masculinity, mental health, as James explained. And it's something that is also in the literature sort of more and more explored and have been brought up. The fact that you know, traditional ideas of masculinity
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Dimitrios: are often about being strong, self-sufficient and so on. So when these industries, kind of roles in society collapse, there is a sort of identity vacuum that settles in very often. So people feel isolated, they're lonely, some days of despair, loneliness, but at the same time they don't want to be seen as vulnerable because they've learned to not be seen as such. And so when you also can't find the right level of support then that becomes extremely problematic. The costs as well are huge also first and foremost because there are human costs. So people are kind of losing their life to suicide or chronic illness. people are feeling disconnected. but it also affects the local economy. When people are struggling, it's more difficult to access or be in work, less likely to engage with their communities and services. And over time it can really sort of chip away at the resilience of a place and that can extend to an entire town or. Or even regions, sometimes. So what this project also wants to say to some degree, I think, is that we've got to treat mental health as a structural issue, really, not just a personal and a case by case one.
Jade: Yeah, that's really fascinating thinking about that kind of the impact of the social and the economic context and how that kind of impacts lived experience over time and can have those kind of connections to place identity too. So it's obviously kind of making those connections and I think belonging obviously plays a key role in the projects. John, I wondered if there was something you could say about why this is such an important thing to consider in relation to mental health and wellbeing.
John Tomaney: Yeah, sure. one of the key issues in this whole debate is about how we achieve social connection and how in the absence of social connection, we create the conditions in which some of these problems, ah, can emerge. So the kind of world that James was describing earlier, the lost world, if you like, of shipyard communities and mining villages and so on, you know, we shouldn't romanticise those places. There were all kinds of problems and difficulties about life in those places. And, But what there was, were lots of opportunities for social connection, whether it was, you know, through membership of the co-op or the Methodist chapel or whatever it was. They were. Think they were institutions which brought people together. And, we call those institutions, in the work that we've done, social infrastructure. And what you find is that, many, in many of the places that we're talking about, these were places that were once rich in this social infrastructure. There was loads of it. You couldn't move for social infrastructure. And, there was lots of ways in which people could come together. But a lot of that social infrastructure has vanished. You know, some of it is a product of the changing economy because much of it was supported by the industries that existed in those places. Some of its broader social change. We live more individualised, privatised forms of life these days, but there's all sorts of ways in which we can measure the decline in social connection. And indeed, in the United States, the US Surgeon General has talked about a crisis of loneliness, which has not just sort of psychological but physiological impact. It affects our health. If we don't have social connection, it affects our health in all kinds of ways. So what this social infrastructure did, to go back to the phrase that, you used, Jay, what it did was it produced, a sense of belonging in places. And, that was really powerful and made a big difference in terms of producing cohesive communities and finding those social connections can these days be very difficult. And again, I don't want to romanticise the past because that's not particularly helpful, but I think there is something to be learned about the way in which those communities were rich in opportunities to create social connections, connections. And for all sorts of reasons, it's harder to do this now. What the work of people like James, you know, and his project in Sunderland really emphasises is the value of this. Just creating opportunities for people to come together, to make their own lives, address their own needs, solve their own problems. And as James said earlier, I'm not waiting for the government come in and do it. And I think the point you made about, you know, there's a lot of people on waiting lists who perhaps don't really need to be on waiting lists for mental health services. What they need are opportunities for sort connection. I think it's sort of proved by his project in lots of ways and by others that we know about scattered across this region. So to me, this issue of belonging is really important and it's almost like it's not just a medical, or psychological or even sociological issue, it's almost like a spiritual one in our society. We've lost this, you know, this ability to belong, you know, and to create these sort of cohesive communities. People desperately want this, but they're not quite sure how to do it. And I think that, ah, you know, projects like James are pointers to how we might do this
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John Tomaney: and if we can shed light on the benefits and value that they generate, then I, think we might have some insights into the sort of things we might usefully do to create the kind of cohesive communities that, people want. I think.
Jade: Yeah, there's such a lot to think about there. And I just wonder whether, James, if you have anything to add there, you spoke a bit about the kind of work that Space Northeast does, but kind of thinking about those community interventions and how you think they are so effective.
James Fildes: Yeah, of course, going back to that point that John made around people not necessarily needing to be on waiting lists. That's not, that's not me, everyone that put people off getting on a waiting list. What I'm saying is, if you imagine you're an isolated man, you're a single man, potentially divorced, you're having a hard time dealing with a divorce and you've never opened up about your emotions before, where do you go? You know, traditionally that would have been something that you were taught about. As John said, in these places of social infrastructure, whether it was a working man's club, whether it was around friends at work, wherever it might have been at church even, you know, those are the places where you would iron out and process and deal with these issues. If you're, if you're isolated because you don't have the social support around you, you don't have the infrastructure around you, where do you go? All you're left with are the symptoms with no tools to deal with it. So you go to the doctors I've got, I'm feeling this way and all of a sudden you're putting a waiting list and all of a sudden you're being medicalized for something that just needs some social structure on. We've lived in that manner for millennia. Humans have done it throughout history, we always have. And it's the only reason that we're here today is because we've been able to live like that together. So why do we think that we can drop that now and think everything will be fine? We can't. So for organisations like ours and what we're trying to do is we're just trying to integrate people into society, do things that are free and things that we've done throughout history. We went and worked at a respite home not probably about two months ago we went and did the garden from. So we just took, it was about the eight of us, they went along, we got the shovels out, got some rubble bags and some dumpy bags, cleared all the, the rough edge away, sort the garden out, trimmed everything up, up and it was fantastic. The smile on the lads faces was amazing. The people who were there were grateful. We weren't doing anything state of the art there. We were just doing a garden together, chatting away and everybody felt better for it. You know, we are not creating some magic winning formula or some, you know, some silver bullet. This is just doing what humans have always done but we don't do anymore, which is really important. Those thoughts, those really, really key talismans of social infrastructure are disappearing. They're not gone, but they are disappearing. Even in my lifetime I've seen the working men's clubs totally almost entirely disappear. So we're just trying to put back in place these really healthy, positive places where men can socialise just with other men. They can be open, vulnerable, talk about things. It's not soft and fluffy, it's, it's. If men feel like they still retain their masculinity being in these spaces and talking about it. That's what we do, we evolve as with each generation you know. But I think it's important that we don't lose sight of the things that have got us to where we are and we're just trying to reinforce those and bring those opportunities to people in Sunderland.
Jade: Yeah, it sounds like a really important work making sure people have that space. So I know it's still very early days for the project but I wondered whether Demetrios so far I wonder if there's any emerging findings that you might be able to speak with us about.
Dimitrios: Sure. So yes as you mentioned James, we're still at very very earlier stages so I would sort of describe the findings in inverted coma at this stage more as kind of supporting our initial assumptions interventions going into this And I think that the number one point is that community led non clinical interventions can be more effective for reaching men in this case at risk better than clinical services. and the reasons for that is basically everything that James just mentioned and I think so this was something that kind of drove kind of the project to begin with but that kind of gradually becoming more and more real in terms of seeing it in the evidence as well. And I think because these initiatives are relational, they are informal and they are place based and this package of conditions is something that is lacking very much both in the approach to clinical interventions and also to kind of understanding the issues at stake. So I think there
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Dimitrios: is part of the work that we're trying to do is also to create longer term relationships with the people that we work with and we're trying to include in this project because very often just like I imagine I'm going to the doctors research can very much be sort of a top down kind of looking at the problem rather than really getting immersed into it. So this idea of engaging the people that are actually affected with this in this process I think is very very important so that the outcomes of the research are also useful for those taking part rather than just oiling the cogs of the academic machine if you want. So I think this is also very very important for this project. And then of course the other one is that these approaches are very much overlooked and under supported, they're underfunded. so kind of elevating the discourse to say that this is core infrastructure. You know, so we're talking, we're thinking very often about infrastructure, you know as roads and bridges and the electricity grid. So society wouldn't be able to exist, we could argue without this. Well very much so. Society wouldn't be able to exist and continue without social infrastructure, in this case so those community led infrastructures that support mental health. So it's about elevating the discourse, putting these initiatives at the same level as really the core drivers of kind of what it means to live in the modern world. The evidence is definitely there. Without social infrastructure m there can't be a modern, well functioning society. I suppose most importantly there is a need to reframe mental health. Not as a clinical issue, but you know one that is social. and kind of rooted in social and economic inequalities. this is becoming apparent the more we dig into sort of statistics, the more that we talk to people. Mental health is not just sort of a number on an awareness spreadsheet. It's something that's really deeply rooted in place both in identity, the lack also of appropriate infrastructure. So highlighting these things I think is really important and they are coming out quite clearly at this stage.
Jade: Brilliant. And it'd be so interesting to hear more as the project progresses. Like I say, I know it's very early days to have that already is quite something. James, thinking more locally, are there any key planned impacts for the project? Are there any kind of immediate outputs or what would be the benefit for the people that use your services.
James Fildes: More involvement of services like ours in the bigger picture and in discussions around mental health. If we paint a timeline of somebody's journey from visiting the JP to receiving treatment, there's a whole lot of gaps there. You know this project for me would hopefully if we can validate why what we're doing is important, hopefully places us with a much more solid solid background and foundation in those gaps that are within that time frame of you know, JP to therapist because there's a lot of them, you know, you'll see a counsellor within six weeks in the, in most cases. But then to see a therapist you're probably going to be waiting eight months. It's a huge amount of time. Some people don't have that much time. So it'll be really nice off the back of this to say you Know, this is, this is the benefit of these non-clinical interventions, these non-clinical community led interventions. This is what we can do. So if we can play a part in supporting in statutory services, in providing support to these men and women, the other services providing support to women, I think we'll be able to do really, really good things. Because it's one thing for me to see, and I've been shouting about it for a few years now, but it's another thing to have, you know, some real empirical data behind us to say this is actually how this works and this is how beneficial this could be. You know, for me, for the Northeast to be leading the way, I mean how, how poetic is it that the worst, most affected part of the country will then lead the way for how we're going to do things differently? I mean that to me is, it embodies the human spirit more than anything. I'd love to see the Northeast leading the way and getting the recognition it deserves for the fantastic organisations that exist up here and around the country.
Jade: And if I could focus that question to you as well, John so if we're thinking about impact more broadly, so perhaps thinking about sort of national and policy landscape, are there any planned impacts for the projects there or any hoped anticipated impacts?
John Tomaney: Yes, certainly at the moment. The new Secretary of State for Health has talked about the need for three shifts in the NHS. He's talked about the need to shift from analogue to digital provision, from treatment to prevention and from hospital to community. And we've known about this for a long time, the need to shift towards prevention and towards community
00:35:00
John Tomaney: based, approaches to, to a range of health challenges. But making that shift proved really, really difficult for a whole variety of reasons. But I think what we want to try and do is provide some evidence in support of how that shift to community might look. And secondly, we have in the Northeast now a new devolved structure of government, a new mayor who I think is open to the kind of arguments that, that we're trying to highlight in this research. So I'd be hopeful that we could get a hearing for what we do there. and it's very likely that in the future I think mayors will be expected to lead on this kind of, on these community-based approaches to health problems. Because, you know, in a place like the Northeast, you know, it's the wider determinants, the wider social factors which explain why health outcomes are poorer in the region, than they are elsewhere. It's not hospital waiting times as such, it's not ambulance response times, it's the conditions in the communities which produce these outcomes. So we've got to find ways of addressing these issues. And we think that not the whole answer, but a significant part of the answer lies in the kind of community-based interventions which people like James, ah, ah, are pioneering. so there are a number of ways in which I think we could hopefully make an impact on the way in which policymakers and decision makers address these issues.
Jade: And do you think that there is scope for the work to apply to other areas as well?
John Tomaney: Certainly there is because the kind of problems that we're talking about in the Northeast are present in other parts of the country as well. And of course this is an international issue. You know, I mentioned the report of the US Surgeon General previously. Well actually the previous US Surgeon General now I don't think that, I'm not sure how much his ideas are influenced. The current US administration and the whole work on deaths of despair originated in the us. So these are problems which are prevalent in a lot of communities, particularly communities which have experienced these processes of rapid industrial change, deindustrialisation. We're seeing these issues emerging all over the world. they don't emerge in the same way in every place because places are different, and they have their own particular histories, cultures and identities. But there is a wider set of issues here and we've drawn on that wider literature in order to frame our study in order that you know, the results that we produce can be connected into these, these larger debates. So yes, I think this is a hyper local study of very small scale organisations trying to make a difference in their communities. But I hope that we've designed the study in a way that it's. That the findings of wider value.
Jade: That's great. And then just one final question then would be how might people find out more about the project as it progresses?
John Tomaney: Well, we'll be disseminating the findings of the project through a range of different channels really, which reflects the nature of the project in the first instance. Of course, we'll be looking to produce some academic outputs and subject them to rigorous peer review. I think we have a policy audience that we're going to be aiming at, particularly locally in the Northeast, but more generally, and we're already in conversation with those policy actors, if you like, about how best to provide them with the results. And finally, I think we want to disseminate the results to the communities that we're going to be working with. And I think how we do that is something that we will develop as the project evolves, but ultimately all of what we disseminate will be made available through the Grand Challenges website and all the links that you need in order to look at the outputs in the project will be available later there.
Jade: That's brilliant. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining me today. It's been so interesting to find out more about the important dialogue that can emerge from collaborative projects between universities and community organisations and the role that this can have in foregrounding the lived experiences of mental health and well being. Thanks again to today's guests, John James and Dimitrios. You've been listening to Disruptive Voices. This episode was presented by me, Jade Hunter, produced by Decibel Creative and edited by Annabelle Buckland and Decibel Creative. The music is by Mango Audio. If you'd like to hear more of these fascinating discussions from Disruptive Voices, make sure you're subscribed to this podcast so you don't miss future episodes. Come and discover more online and keep up with the latest Grand Challenges news, events and research. Just Google UCL Grand Challenges.