Franken-meat: The future of lab-grown meat

We all know that meat production emits a substantial amount of greenhouse gases, nearly 60% by some estimates, and so we need to do something about it. 

Darren Player, Associate Professor in Musculoskeletal Bioengineering, discusses the development of lab-grown meat, why he's working on engineering new, sustainable sources of meat and how he's doing it. 

We're also joined by Beren Fidan, a Colotaruna Soprano, who is vegan and shares her thoughts on the ethics of lab-grown meat and whether it's a viable option for her. 

Transcript

Ferdouse Akhter  00:06

Hi and welcome to health in a hand basket. I'm your host, Ferdouse, marketing and Community Manager, at UCL's Institute of Healthcare Engineering. In this podcast, we sit down with an expert to learn about the wonderful and impactful things happening in Healthcare Engineering. Today, we're picking out the topic of lab grown meat. A lot more people are going vegan or vegetarian, with a number of vegans increasing by an estimated 1.1 million between 2023 and 2024 so you might have thought about making the change yourself. We're going to speak to Dr Darren player, Associate Professor in Musculoskeletal Bioengineering. He's going to be speaking to us about his work on making lab grown meat. We're also joined by Beren Fidan, who is an opera singer and has been vegan for nine and a half years. Hi, Darren, hi, Beren. So I think the name says it all. So let's start at the beginning. So you work on lab grown meat, Darren, what is lab grown meat?

Darren Player  00:57

So I think probably the first thing to address is why we're talking about lab grown meat on a Healthcare Engineering podcast. So really, lab grown meat came from the tissue engineering background within skeletal muscle. So if we talk about lab grown meat, in essence, what it is, is tissue engineered skeletal muscle. And that's my background. I've been working in that area for over 15 years now, and really now I'm pivoting a lot of the work that I'm doing, which previously had a clinical focus and impact, towards what we're now seeing is a huge growth area in lab grown meat. So essentially, what lab grown meat is is, well, there's, there's various kind of iterations which are at various stages of development. So we have a continuum, really, of these types of products. But the particular focus that I'm having in my research is where we're actually taking animal derived skeletal muscle cells and combining that with what we term an extracellular matrix, which essentially is the scaffold in which the cells reside, and combining that into muscle tissue, or in other words, if it's an animal based product, a meat based product that potentially we could see on the shelves in the next few years as a lab grown meat product.

Ferdouse Akhter  02:12

skeletal matrix. What is that? Exactly?

Darren Player  02:15

The extracellular matrix. Okay, yeah, so this essentially is the scaffold in which all of our cells attach and reside. So if we didn't have this extracellular matrix, none of our tissues would have any structure at all. Is that stuff like collagen, exactly. So in skeletal muscle, we have collagen as an extracellular matrix protein that is the predominant protein. We have a lot of other proteins in there as well. And in recent years, the role of the extracellular matrix has actually become a lot more important. Our understanding has increased significantly where it isn't just a sort of passive scaffold, it really is involved in a lot of active processes, all the way from growth and development all the way through to maturity function of these tissues, but also there's a huge impact in disease and aging as well.

Ferdouse Akhter  03:06

So collagen isn't just, like preventing wrinkles, is like, literally huge body function and is is pivotal for, like, all life or all cells in our body.

Darren Player  03:17

Yeah, absolutely, it is actually the most conserved protein that we see in animal species. It's a small protein, yeah, it's a protein, yeah.

Ferdouse Akhter  03:25

Okay. And you know, when you say tissue, I mean, you're not talking, you're not engineering, you know, tissue that you blow your nose with your by tissue is that like loads of cells together.

Darren Player  03:38

yeah. So when we talk about the orders of kind of structures of tissues, systems and things like that. A tissue, specifically is a group of cells that has a particular function. So an organ is a group of tissues, again, that performs a particular function. So within skeletal muscle, we call that a tissue, but actually in a lot of the scientific literature now it is often being termed as an organ, because it has so many more functions than we first originally thought in terms of nutrient metabolism. So this is things like being able to control glucose, but it also acts as what we call an endocrine organ, so it actually releases a lot of factors from the tissue into our bloodstream that can affect many other tissues within our body. And even now, quite interestingly, we've discovered a lot of factors that can cross the blood brain barrier. So factors released from muscle tissue can get to the brain and have an impact in our brain, both positively and negatively. So it really is kind of an organ in the sense that it doesn't just have the primary function of movement. It has a lot of other functions as well.

Ferdouse Akhter  04:47

I guess, when it comes to lab grown meat, what you're saying is chicken breast isn't just chicken breast is a collection of, you know, blood vessels, muscle tissue, the extra. A cellular matrix. Yes, skeletal matrix. Sorry, it's a really cool word. So, yeah, okay, so it's a collection of everything,

Darren Player  05:11

yeah. So I think first and foremost, we probably have to recognize that any meat that we eat is actually just skeletal muscle. So when we're talking about chicken breast, that's obviously a muscle that we find within the chicken that would perform a particular function, and obviously we're then just extracting that muscle to then consume it as a food. But at a very, very basic level, the meat that we eat from an animal, at least is skeletal muscle and that's really why we've seen a lot of a shift in the research within skeletal muscle tissue engineering towards lab grown meat and sort of associated products, because a lot of the technologies that underpin skeletal muscle tissue engineering apply very much within the lab grown meat area. And I'm sure we'll go on to some of the reasons why it's important to develop lab grown meat, but it just offers another opportunity for research, development and impact.

Beren Fidan  06:11

Is it the same for inner organs of the animals? You know? Is, I know it's not really common to eat inner parts of the animals, but other like liver and this kind of thing is it still the same group of tissue,

Darren Player  06:22

no, so. So when we eat meat, as in, like chicken breast or like a steak or something like that, that is skeletal muscle. When we eat offal, sort of like kidneys or liver and things like that, that is obviously just the tissue that we kind of expect. So liver would be the liver organ. The kidneys would be the kidney organ, the intestines would be tissue within the digestive system and things like that. So yeah, when we're talking about lab grown meat, predominantly, we're focused on skeletal muscle, but there still is a growing area of how we might also be able to replace some of the other organs that we eat as well.

Ferdouse Akhter  07:02

Semantics is quite interesting in the sense that, you know, when you talk about some people are adverse to eating kidneys or liver and stuff like that, because, like, that's like kidney and liver, but they don't see the they don't have the same reaction to chicken breast, which is, like, quite common in a lot of people's diets, but mainly because it's been kind of like washed down. So now you're not saying, Oh, we're eating chicken muscle. You just say we're eating chicken breast, which doesn't have the same kind of like visceral reaction in a lot of people.

Beren Fidan  07:33

And because it doesn't feel like animal, it feels like food, that's why people don't eact.

Ferdouse Akhter  07:38

Yeah, but then, like a lot of my friends, when they hear like, Oh, I love kidney and I love liver, but like, when, yeah, exactly, like, I just saw your face. But when I tell a lot of people I love stuff like that, they're like, Okay, but you know, yeah, but it's the same it's the same thing. It's the same principle. So where do you get your stem cells from? Because I can only think about stem cells being in babies and embryos.

Darren Player  08:03

So there's been a big development in science over the last few years with the ability to isolate stem cells and then be able to what we call differentiate those stem cells into the cell types that we need. So by that, I mean a stem cell is a cell that has ability to become lots of different cell types. So what the big advance that we've really seen is in the area of what we call induced pluripotent stem cells. So these are stem cells similar to what we would see in a growing embryo, where they have the ability to differentiate into multiple cell types, and we can do that in a very, very controlled way. So with skeletal muscle tissue engineering, we can take induced pluripotent stem cells and we can differentiate those to become muscle cells that we can then use to develop tissue engineered skeletal muscle the real limitation of muscle tissue engineering, until very recently, was that if we were to take muscle cells from a donor. So if we were looking to do clinical studies, for example, we can take a biopsy from a human, and we can isolate stem cells that reside within the muscle tissue. And those cells have a greater capability to become muscle cells because they're in that environment, but they're very limited. It's very difficult to expand those cells to the point where we can actually use them to develop tissue engineered muscle so, but with stem cells, essentially, we have an indefinite capability to grow those cells over and over. So it's just been completely transformational in our ability to be able to grow tissue at scale. So we're thinking about trying to replace, say, diseased tissue in a human muscle, obviously, is huge, so the volume that we need to produce this tissue at is very, very challenging, but with stem cell technologies, that's possible, and it's exactly the same challenge in lab grown meat, if we want. Engineer meat in the lab that would be suitable for consumption. You know, we need to be engineering tissues that that scale of a chicken breast, a steak and things like that. So the source of cells is very important in terms of our ability to keep growing those cells over and over.

Ferdouse Akhter  10:16

So where do you get those stem cells from? Is from any cell, and you can turn on a switch to very simplify it that will make it a stem cell.

Darren Player  10:27

yes, So another advancement with technology, so induced pluripotent stem cells, essentially what you're doing is you're taking an already differentiated cell. So it means that a skin cell can no longer become a stem cell. So once it's become a skin cell, it remains as a skin cell. But what we can do with this new technology, the induced pluripotent stem cell technology, I say new we're talking kind of relatively new in in the landscape of science, is we can reprogram those cells to become stem cells naturally kind of in the body, on the skin. They would only remain as skin cells, but when we take them into the lab, we can induce certain factors within those cells that return that skin cell to become a stem cell. We just reverse that process so it almost becomes like a an embryonic stem cell, again, in its ability to then be able to differentiate or become multiple cell types. So what we do is we would take a skin cell, reprogram that to become a stem cell that's then termed an induced pluripotent stem cell, and then we would differentiate that to become a muscle cell that we can then use in tissue engineering. Well,

Ferdouse Akhter  11:39

why can't you use just use muscle cells like can you not clone the same muscle cell? Why are you having an issue where you have to get other types of cells and make it a stem cell?

Darren Player  11:48

some of the issue with taking muscle cells is that they have a definite capability to differentiate. So if we take muscle stem cells, so they're called satellite cells within muscle tissue, they effectively, there's a limited capability of those cells to grow up to the level that we would need

Ferdouse Akhter  12:08

is that because they've already become muscle cells, you've not turned on the stem cell feature for them.

Darren Player  12:14

Yeah, there's a lot of limiting factors, a very complex process, but essentially, those cells have a reduced capability to expand, compared to, for example, an induced pluripotent stem cell. So what this has allowed us to do is when that process almost runs out, we no longer have enough cells anymore, we can generate some more induced pluripotent stem cells and start the process over again. So it just gives us that ability to keep growing the number of cells that we need, rather than it almost running its course and then having to start all over again with muscle cells.

Ferdouse Akhter  12:50

So our muscles have a form of satellite cells. What do those cells do? Why do we even have them?

Darren Player  12:55

so when I mentioned about satellite cells, so they are the stem cells that we find within our muscle tissue. Yeah. And they are the cells just in muscle tissue, yeah. So they're termed satellite cells because essentially, they kind of live right next door to the muscle fibers. So they lay satellite to the muscle fibers themselves, and they are what's called the resident stem cell within skeletal muscle, the satellite cells. The satellite cells. So for example, if we were to go to the gym, we do some exercise that causes damage to the muscle fibers, and it's that damage which initiates the process of regeneration. So in order for our muscle cells to grow and get stronger, there has to be a process of damage and repair. So those muscle cells are damaged. That process of damage activates these satellite cells, and those satellite cells then become the muscle cells, and then essentially fuse into the damaged muscle fiber. And it's that process which contributes to regeneration and growth. So say, for example, someone goes to the gym, they do resistance training or weight training for, say, 12 weeks, you might see that their muscles are growing, and a certain contribution of that growth will come from those satellite cells.

Ferdouse Akhter  14:12

So like, say, if you got a old cow took some of its muscle cells, then would you have even more limited supply? Because those cells are going to die out a lot quicker,

Darren Player  14:23

exactly. So people do do that. You can take cells from a human or an animal, from the muscle tissue itself. You can isolate them, but there's a lot of limitations to that process, where we can't grow the numbers of cells that we would need to engineer tissue in the volume that we require. So it's really the stem cell approaches that have taken over in recent years.

Ferdouse Akhter  14:44

What kind of ethical questions then are you facing with this? Because if you're taking, you know, muscle cells or whatever it is, from a cow or a sheep, yeah,

Darren Player  14:53

so probably it's important to just make it clear that we wouldn't be making lab grown meat from human cells. It would always be from an appropriate animal source. So we were to try, and if we're trying to make chicken meat, for example, we would obviously take a muscle cell from a chicken. But obviously that in itself, has a lot of ethical considerations. So you know, are we doing harm to the animal to obtain those cells? And that's actually why a lot of stem cell approaches are really important because, for example, we could take cells from an animal where actually not causing any harm or minimal harm, and still be able to use those cells, reprogram them to become induced pluripotent stem cells, and then still develop lab grown meat from those cells. The other thing to consider with lab grown meat in terms of the ethics, is that it's almost it's quite a challenging paradigm in that even for people who eat meat currently, it's still quite a strange thing thing for them to be considering that they could actually be eating meat that's been engineered or manufactured in a lab. So that kind of presents a lot of ethical challenges in itself. So it's there's probably the two main areas, the the area around, you know, considerations for animals, but also considerations around the actual dynamic of of eating a meat product that doesn't come from kind of a farm source, but from a lab source.

Ferdouse Akhter  16:19

So, Beren, would you eat this? What Darren's making?

Beren Fidan  16:22

I wouldn't eat that. No, I've been vegan for a long time. I don't think animals are the natural food source of humans. So even though lab grown me sounds ethical, I assume it will be made without harming animals, So it's more ethical because you're not killing conscious being that wants to live. So I think it's ethical, and it might be better for some people, but for me, I just prefer to eat veggies. I don't want to eat any animal tissue, unfortunately, but I have some questions. As a vegan, you mentioned that there are lots of ways to find stem cells from animals. Do you think they're ethical, or do you think those kind of methods because we didn't talk about them deeply? Do you think those methods have animal slavery in it?

Darren Player  17:11

That's a very challenging question, but I think that's kind of what we're working towards, to eliminate all of those different things. So for example, when we talk about the source of cells, now, with the induced pluripotent stem cell technology, we can remove a lot of the element around having to take sort of new samples from animals which could cause some degree of harm. So we're probably not there yet in the in the whole kind of research framework, but certainly there's been significant progress in recent years, particularly in terms of replacement of re-agents as well. So rather than using animal derived products and proteins, we've now come up with synthetic products that can be used to replace that so one of the sort of domains that we work within is replacement, refinement and reduction of animal use in research. So everything that we try and do is kind of with that mantra where we're thinking about how we can replace animals and sort of animal derived sources of consumables and products to really kind of sort of, you know, prevent any further suffering going forward.

Beren Fidan  18:23

I know you said you're trying to limit things, and of course, it will take time. It's a new technology and everything. I want to know what kind of process you do in order to gain some, you know, to have some stem cells. How do they harm animals in the process?

Darren Player  18:36

So say, for example, we were looking to try and generate chicken, lab grown meat. We could take a biopsy, for example. So we would just take a small sample from the muscle tissue, and then we would extract the cells from that, and then we would use that to grow up those cells to then re engineer the muscle tissue. But with the sort of stem cell technology available now. It is possible that if a chicken stem cell already exists in kind of like a stem cell bank, or even a differentiated chicken cell, so it could even be like a chicken skin cell or something like that. If that already exists and is commercially available, we could take those cells, reprogram them to stem cells, and then differentiate those into muscle cells without even having to go near a chicken. So obviously, to get the original source of those cells, that would have to have been obtained from a chicken, but from that moment forward, as long as there is a source of those cells, you would no longer have to harm a chicken to then be able to generate the cells that you need.

Beren Fidan  19:45

You also said that you can run out of the stem cell source. How does that happen?

Darren Player  19:50

Yeah, so for example, when you actually take stem cells and you convert them to muscle cells, because essentially that then is birth. Sending out the stem cell source, the number of stem cells that's there, because muscle cells can no longer return to becoming stem cells. That's how you quickly run out. So you know, if you started with 100 stem cells, and you converted those 100 to muscle cells, then you would no longer have any stem cells to go back to. So what you always have to do is ensure that you maintain that stem cell source, so that you can always go back to that. You grow up those cells again to a significant number, then you take a portion of those and turn those into muscle, and then you've always got that Bank of cells to return to. So there's certain kind of processes and methods in place to make sure that you can maintain the number of stem cells that you have, I have

Beren Fidan  20:42

two more questions about it now. So can you multiply the stem cell as another stem cell?

Darren Player  20:48

Yes, you can. The main property of a stem cell, well, there's two key properties. So one is that it goes through a process of what we call self renewal. So essentially, what that means is that when it divides, at least one of the cells that it divides into will return back to becoming a stem cell. So it means it always maintains the number of stem cells that there are.

Ferdouse Akhter  21:13

Wait, so a stem cell will split into two, but then one of them will be a stem cell, and the other one will be like a skin cell.

Darren Player  21:20

 exactly, yeah. So one will return back to becoming a stem cell again. So that keeps the number of stem cells that we have, and the other cell you could then differentiate to become skin, muscle, whatever you like. So that's how you keep the number of stem cells within a particular population.

Beren Fidan  21:37

With an organized system, you can maintain this without needing any animals in the future

Darren Player  21:43

exactly

Ferdouse Akhter  21:43

you're working on lab grown meat. But it started off another way about how you use human tissue. But you know, we're not using human tissue for food. You're using human tissue for another purpose.

Darren Player  21:55

So there's obviously clinical applications related to scleto muscle tissue engineering, and that's really where the field grew from. So for example, either trying to develop models that could be used for disease kind of identification, or looking at the mechanisms of particular disease, so things like muscular dystrophy, or it could be used for drug screening and therapeutic screening. Or the other idea with skeletal muscle tissue engineering is that we could actually manufacture tissues that could replace damaged or diseased tissue.

Ferdouse Akhter  22:27

Well, like a heart? that's a form of muscle

Darren Player  22:30

that's cardiac muscle, which is slightly different, but I'm talking about things like so muscular dystrophy. So this is where there's an issue with the muscle itself, a genetic condition, or things like traumatic injury. So if someone suffered from a road traffic accident where they've lost a significant mass within their muscle, could we actually replace that with muscle that we've grown in the lab? And that's really where there's the analogy to lab grown meat, because essentially, we're trying to recreate a very similar structure

Ferdouse Akhter  23:01

the lab grown meat that you're creating, what makes that different from what's already in the market?

Darren Player  23:05

Yeah. So essentially, it's because we're trying to really closely replicate the native tissue structure. So where there's a lot of companies and a lot of other researchers in this area where they're trying to make alternative products. So for example, things like a chicken nugget or something like that, that obviously serves a particular purpose, but it doesn't fully replace kind of the meat, the native meat sauce. So like a chicken breast or a steak, it's not recreating that structure. So that's really what my focus is, and the main reason for that is because if there's lessons that we can learn from manufacturing lab grown meat in that way, that we could translate back to clinical impact, then that's a really, really good thing. And the biggest challenge that we face is in scale. So how do we actually grow these tissues to the size that we would need as a food stuff and also for clinical impact, and that's what we're currently working on.

Beren Fidan  24:04

So when do you grow the cells? How do you give the nutritions they think they need? Like, how do you provide the sources so they can grow?

Darren Player  24:13

That's a very good question. So essentially, it's like giving the cells Lucozade or something like that. So essentially, we're giving them a complete nutritional profile. So it's called Media. So within the media, we include glucose, all the different amino acids, which then will get turned into protein, all the different salts and things like that that are required for cells to survive. So essentially, we're giving the cells all the nutrition they need to survive and thrive in a lab environment versus in their native environment, either in the animal or human.

Beren Fidan  24:50

It's a bit controversial, but most of vegans, most of the vegans, believe that animal sourced food are not good. There are things that Support this thesis, and there are things that doesn't support this thesis, but I think we can all agree that, especially farming, big, big farms, animal farms, those animals are not really happy there, and they're not really fed properly, and they're having lots of supplements, and we know that, and they're also taking a lot of antibiotics. So with this lab grown meat, is it possible to create a better, safer, healthier, nutritionist meat?

Darren Player  25:30

Yeah. So that's another area that I'm very interested in, is actually developing a lab grown meat product that is fit for human health. So we're obviously all very aware of ultra processed foods. At the moment, there's been a lot of media attention around that, and I think with a lot of the lab grown meat products that are being discussed or even very close to market, essentially, are ultra processed food. And what I'm very interested in doing is trying to make a product that's as close to the native tissue structure as possible in the kind of the healthiest way possible, so without the requirement for, you know, lots of antibiotic use, lots of synthetic growth factor use, and things like that, which may be seen as controversial. Some people may think they're not. But do it in a way where, ultimately, if we know a human is consuming that product and they're making that choice, it's going to be the best kind of nutritional value for them as possible.

Beren Fidan  26:27

I also think that so when animals are killed, we know that they release a lot of hormones, like because they're they're scared, they adrenaline, everything. And there is also another thing where we can believe those hormones, the fear and everything. By eating their meat, we also take it in our body, and we believe it doesn't really affect in a good way. So in lab, grown meat because they're not conscious beings, and we're going to just produce it from the stem cells, those factor will be erased naturally. I think it's also a good thing, though.

Darren Player  27:01

Yeah, of course that. So you know, in that process there. So as I mentioned before about muscle tissue being this organ, the muscle cells themselves will produce a lot of these different factors, but that obviously will be separate to probably some of the factors that you're talking about, so a lot of the stress hormones and things like that. So yeah, because it's in that isolated environment, you're kind of isolating it away from some of those other impacts. But as you say, you know, these cells don't have the same kind of living consciousness as an animal, so it's kind of very separate in that way.

Ferdouse Akhter  27:37

Beren, do you think we need alternative meat sources? Or does it have to be an animal source? Or do you personally get it from somewhere else?

Beren Fidan  27:46

Um, I think we definitely need alternative meat sources. As I said, I believe humans don't need to, we don't have to eat meat, but apparently we do. I mean, I used to eat meat as well, and there is a lot of consumption of meat, especially in modern times. So and in order to provide this need, we have, we need a lot of animals. We need a lot of land, and there is a lot of pollution happening because of the animal farming and putting it in a lab without hurting conscious animals, without harming conscious animals, without polluting our environment, which is our only home, is a very clever way to put I will not be eating lab grown meat. As I said, I don't prefer to eat animal based things, but it's a very good way, and it's a very ethical way for everyone, for the animal, for the world, and as we just talk, it's actually healthier than the modern meat sources.

Ferdouse Akhter  28:43

As an omnivore, like I would be interested because I'm trying to be more conscious about not eating meat, especially red meat, so it is something that I would be interested in. I'm not even vegan or vegetarian, like I think I would still maintain like my omnivore diet, but it's good to know that there are options. And like you were saying Beren, like the quality of meat nowadays isn't that great

Darren Player  29:07

yeah, so the big thing with lab grown meat, alongside the ethics, really, is kind of the environmental impact. So kind of challenging farming practices that we all know is very damaging to the environment, and really the promise of lab grown meat, cultivated meat is that we can actually overcome a lot of those limitations. So, you know, we can reduce CO2 emissions. We can, you know, rather than having to clear lots of land for feed stocks and things like that, we can overcome those challenges. But the really important thing is that if we are making these products, they still need to be good for human health and have the same, if not better, value. So you know, ultimately, if people are consuming lab grown meat, but actually it's not giving them the same level of nutritional value as a farmed product, then we're not getting to the same level of environmental impact that we'd hoped. Right? So we have to think about it holistically. You know, there's the ethical issues, challenges and benefits, there's issues around environmental sustainability, but also nutrition, and it's only when we bring all of those together that I think will really see impact within this area.

Ferdouse Akhter  30:16

So what you're saying is that stuff, like lab grown meat can help tackle, like, the intense farming that we do, the the poor quality of meat, or the poorer quality of meat compared to, like, I don't know, 200 years ago, like you said, Beren, like, a lot of it's stuffed with antibiotics. It's not good for us. We're becoming antibiotic resistant and stuff like that because of the meat that we eat. So do you think this is a viable solution to all of that stuff.

Darren Player  30:41

I think that's obviously some of the reason why this is a really good area of research and development is to overcome a lot of those challenges, particularly intensive farming practices. Everyone wants to consume a lot of meat in modern society, and we probably need to be challenging that, and alongside the developments in lab grown meat, is actually tackling some of the ethical and environmental issues within intensive farming practices. I don't think by any means lab grown meat is going to be the only answer to those problems. I think it needs to be kind of reflected on both sides and and ultimately that's, that's how we're going to make progress.

Ferdouse Akhter  31:23

So this is a question for both of you. So to what extent do you think you can balance sustainability with your health?

Darren Player  31:28

That's a really big question. I think ultimately there has to be some level of balance. So, you know, we shouldn't really be compromising our health to the detriment of the environment, but ultimately we've got to be working towards better sustainability practices and things like that. So it's a big challenge, and there's certainly things that can be done. It's just whether there's kind of willingness within societies, and ultimately within economies as well, to really challenge that.

Beren Fidan  32:00

So I'm vegan for a long time, and my health is definitely improved a lot. I got rid of a lot of chronic diseases of mine, such as migraine, stomach issues and everything. And on top of that, because I'm not really buying animal based products, I'm living an ethical and happy life are, and I'm not really contributing the pollution which was caused by animal farming.

Darren Player  32:27

Better food choices. I think we can all make better food choices. I think it's just where we make those choices. And ultimately, everyone has their own decisions to make. Unfortunately, the, you know, the current cost of living crisis and things like that, means that it is difficult for a lot of people to make choices which may be better for the environment and the health. And that's obviously going back to what I was saying about the importance of society as a whole, governments, things like that around the world, to try and make, you know, to try and improve the situation to allow people to make those better choices.

Ferdouse Akhter  33:04

Thank you for speaking to us, Darren and Baron. So Darren, you've got something a little extra to say, something to add,

Darren Player  33:13

Yes, so I'm actually launching my own podcast related to this area. It's called the stakeholder podcast, deliberate play on words there, obviously, yeah, where the idea being that we can really bring together all the different stakeholders within this area to have a frank and open discussion around how we can make progress and impact. So there's going to be involvement from researchers, people in business, in the industry, dietitians, nutritionists, the general public, kind of, everyone across the spectrum of, you know, who's going to have some sort of stake within this area to try and, you know, start educating people and have a bit of a conversation. So that will be launching very soon.

Ferdouse Akhter  33:56

Can't wait to hear it. Thank you both. It's been super interesting as someone who wants to move away from eating meat. Yeah, I never really thought about fake meat products being super processed and Beren.,It's been good to hear how you managed to stay focused on your diet. You look great and you feel great. So, yeah, amazing.  This has been held in a hand basket produced by UCL Institute of Healthcare Engineering and edited by Shakira Crawford from Waltham forests. Feature formed, what's the Institute of Healthcare Engineering? Well, let me tell you the Ihe brings together leading researchers to develop the tools and devices that will make your life better. We're using this podcast to share all the amazing work taking place, but there's so much more going on, so please check out our website@ucl.ac.uk forward slash health dash in dash a dash hand basket to find out more, and please share with your friends and family. If you found this interesting, we're available everywhere, especially where you've just listened to us.