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'Zero Hour' for the Climate and Nature Bill
Welcome to Series 5 of our Generation One Podcast!
Hosts Mark and Simon are joined by Simon Oldridge, Policy Advisor at Zero Hour to break down the key components of the Bill, and why it’s crucial to tackling the climate emergency. We also hear from the Bill’s sponsor: Liberal Democrat MP Roz Savage, on why she believes it’s a vital step needed on climate action. And from Conservative MP Andrew Bowie, who shares his concerns about the Bill and why he remains a critic.
Views expressed by our guests are their own.
- Listen to this episode on: SoundCloud / ApplePodcasts / Spotify
Transcript
UCL Minds 0:03
We are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation that can do something about it.
Roz Savage 0:12
Everything in nature is connected with everything else in nature. Sadly, not everything in government is connected with everything else in government.
Simon Oldridge 0:22
If we pass this legislation, for me, it will change everything.
Andrew Bowie 0:30
This is not how decisions are made in this country. It's not how decisions should be made in this country.
Mark Maslin 0:37
This is Generation One from University College London, turning climate science and ideas into action.
Welcome back to UCL, Generation One podcast and Season 5. I'm your host, Mark Maslin, and I'm a professor of Earth Systems Science here at UCL, which now you should all know means that I study climate change in the past, the present and the future.
Simon Chin-Yee 1:08
And I'm Dr Simon Chin-Yee from UCL’s School of Public Policy, and my work focuses on the intersection of climate policy, human security and pushing for a decarbonization of industry.
Mark Maslin 1:20
We're back after the holiday break, and this is our first episode of the new year. And with all the climate work that's happening this month, it is hard to believe that January is nearly over. Since we haven't seen each other for some time, Simon, what projects have you been up to? What have you been kicking the new year off with?
Simon Chin-Yee 1:39
I mean, honestly, 2025, what a way to start it. It never ends, Mark, as you know. The intersessional Working Group on decarbonization of shipping starts in a couple of weeks at the International Maritime Organization, and I'm actually off to Kenya on Monday for the regional conference on green shipping in Africa. But what about you? How's your 2025 started?
Mark Maslin 2:02
Oh, well I have to say, I'm still reeling from the shock of the US elections and all of these presidential edicts that have been coming out. But on top of that, what I've been doing is firstly organizing an amazing conference. So last year we ran Love Your Planet, and we're doing the same again this year. And we've got three major panels with lots of incredible speakers. We're going to be talking about: how can we improve the actual international negotiations? How can we actually get UK to net zero as quick as possible? And then the last one is, how can we actually get local communities to work on climate change, which I think is really, how should I put it? I think this is really good episode to actually build upon.
Simon Chin-Yee 2:50
And honestly, if I could just make a plug for that, because I participated in Love Your Planet last year, it had over 700 participants. It was an excellent event, a whole day event, and it's on the 17th of February so there's still time to sign up.
Mark Maslin 3:04
There's also climate comedy by Matt Winnings, and we'll also be interviewing Tom Heap, who is Sky's climate correspondent. So it should be a really good day. And just another plug: Simon will be, of course, chairing a panel on disagreeing well about climate change.
Simon Chin-Yee 03:21
Yeah, I can't wait for that.
Mark Maslin 3:29
So what have we got today?
Simon Chin-Yee 3:33
It's been a busy week for climate action all around with the outcome of the nature and climate bill, which received its second reading in Parliament last Friday. This bill is a plan for a new UK law that addresses the root causes of the climate nature crisis. It's sponsored by MP Roz Savage, from the Liberal Democrats and the Zero Hour campaign, which aims to secure backing for the bill. And as I understand, it has at least the promise of at least 200 MPs across party lines.
Mark Maslin 4:02
Before we introduce today's guest, let us hear a clip of Liberal Democrat MP, Dr Roz Savage explaining the purpose of the Climate and Nature Bill to the House of Commons last month.
Roz Savage 4:16
So what is in the Climate and Nature Bill? This bill has been drafted by world leading climate scientists, ecologists and conservationists, and aims to deliver an integrated plan to tackle the twin crises of climate and nature. It would bring massive benefits for local communities, including my constituents in the South Cotswolds, improving the air we breathe, giving us clean water to drink, swim and row in, revitalizing local populations of cherished wildlife like voles, otters, Kingfishers and shrews. Cheaper energy bills, warmer homes, green jobs, better food and healthier lives.
The bill would create a joined-up strategy for the UK to tackle these interconnected climate and nature crises together, and is the only proposed or actual piece of legislation to create that link between the UK's responses to climate change and nature loss. We cannot solve one without also tackling the other, and we risk making each crisis worse if they're tackled in silos. So the bill supports a whole of government approach to prevent these issues becoming siloed. Everything in nature is connected with everything else in nature. Sadly, not everything in government is connected with everything else in government, and it needs to be.
Mark Maslin 5:45
That was Dr Roz Savage, MP, speaking to the House of Commons in January.
Simon Chin-Yee 5:53
Joining us today from Zero Hour, we have another Simon. This time, Simon Oldridge. Simon is a former chartered accountant and business consultant who now conducts research for MP watch. He is also policy advisor on the Climate and Nature Bill.
Mark Maslin 6:09
So Simon, I'm so glad that you could join us. Could you start by giving us some background to why this new Climate and Nature Bill was introduced in the first place?
Simon Oldridge 6:19
Well, thanks for both, for having me on. It's a real pleasure. Well, why was it introduced? Well, we're failing, aren't we? We're failing nationally and internationally. Emissions are rising globally. Progress in reducing emissions in the UK is to some degree illusory. It's, you know, we talk about having cut our emissions by 50% but a lot of that is because we've offshored so much of our manufacturing to other countries. And when you add that back in, progress is really rather pitiful. It averages to around 0.6% a year. You know that's just far, far short of the transformative change needed.
And on nature, where we're in a mess. The UK is one of the most nature depleted nations in the world, and it always comes second place, trumped by growth scientists. I don't have to tell you, scientists are warning that we're heading for social and economic collapse on our current trajectory. But the frustrating thing is, we have the solutions. We're just not implementing them because it takes long term thinking, and governments aren't very good at that. They're always drawn to the short term.
Mark Maslin 7:30
So Simon, can you tell us what difference will this bill make? Why is this different? Why is this going to be impactful on the climate and environment or the UK.
Simon Oldridge 7:41
So first of all, climate and nature are inextricably linked. They're part of one, I don't have to tell you, Mark, part of one global, complex system. So we're now in a different world where we realize the problem's bigger. We also haven't acted. So then our action needs to be more robust. And yet, the targets we're operating under at the moment, the fourth and fifth carbon budgets, which carries through to the start of 2033, are so weak because they were set 10 and 15 years ago almost. That the government only has to deliver an emissions reduction of 1% average per year to meet them. Now, that's incremental. That's not going to get us anywhere, and that's why they're not taking any of the action that we all know is needed. You know, they're not.
There's nothing to curb sales of SUVs and private jets. They've slashed their plans for insulating people's homes. You know there's very little action on public transport or cycle or walkways. All the solutions that we know are going to make people's lives better at the same time as tackling the climate and nature crisis are not being enacted, because the targets just aren't driving it. And on nature, there is a new target in the Environment Act to halt species decline and start to recover species abundance. But it's incredibly narrow. It only looks at species. It doesn't look at the ecosystems and protecting those ecosystems, interconnected ecosystems that species need to thrive. And it's completely undermined by, for example, policies on rivers, where water companies are going to be allowed to keep pumping sewage into rivers until 2050 from a lot of the sewage outflows, when you actually drill down and look at the law behind it. And so these, you know, nature scientists will tell you these targets are meaningless. And of course, if we're not acting on climate, whatever we do on nature is going to be undermined, because nature can't adapt.
Simon Chin-Yee 9:51
The Trump presidency coming into the US and starting last week, for example. I think one of the major things that I and Mark and yourself, of course, are looking at – but I think we should all be looking at – is the fact that they're rolling back action on climate change, because other things can be addressed. But climate change is so imperative to happen now, right? And so is there a way you can think of the UK or the EU moving action forward despite what's happening overseas?
Simon Oldridge 10:19
We need a major nation to listen to the science and take the action necessary. If we pass this legislation that, for me, it will change everything. It's basically, I think of it as a business-as-usual breaker. I mean, we know our business-as-usual model is killing the planet. You know, we all know you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet. We know all these things, but we're not doing them now, and we know there's a big payback by acting. So if we pass the Climate and Nature Bill and show that it generates all this economic activity, you know, just imagine all the jobs created by insulating all these homes and wrap it and accelerating renewables rollout, which is going far too slowly, and all those sort of things. It will provide inspiration to other countries and campaigners in those countries and strengthen their hand. And I think what we'll get is a sort of a copycat effect rolling out through Europe and other nations around the world. And that does put pressure on the likes of America, and it strengthens the hand of Trump's opponents.
And I would say one other thing is that the current government's plans for carbon capture, which are actually mostly about building new gas infrastructure, gas power stations and blue hydrogen plants that's going to be fed by imported gas, which a lot of it comes from the US, as LNG liquefied natural gas. Now that's Trump's gas that he's wanting to export. And you know, with his “drill baby drill”, we shouldn't be buying that gas. Let's show that there is another way, a better way, and that everyone is going to benefit from it. Well, everyone, except for the very wealthiest, to the billionaires, and let's not enable Trump by buying his dirty gas. So I think lead by example, and don't enable him by buying his dirty fossil fuels.
Simon Chin-Yee 12:12
One of the key components of this bill is the fact that you are combining nature and climate together. So you've already touched on this a little bit Simon, but could you elaborate on what you see the bill doing and ensuring that these two issues are not treated separately as they usually are.
Simon Oldridge 12:28
What the bill does, is it sets an overall framework that would require the government to formulate policies that are driven by the science that fit within the guardrails set out by science. And so well, if the bills passed, and you know, it will be, we're going to make sure it will be. The government will then have to go away and formulate a strategy, a joined-up strategy, tackling nature and climate together. And they will do that informed by a Citizens Assembly of a randomly selected group of the public, a bit like the jury, who will listen to the experts and then vote on a range of choices presented to them.
Because there are different ways you can do this and it's really important that we have buy-in, and this is not seen as a top-down piece of legislation. So that's quite bold and dramatic. You know, we're faced with an unprecedented problem here, and we can't expect our normal mechanisms of state to be able to deliver the solutions. Because we see how government works, it delivers tiny, incremental change that gets undone. And, you know, nothing really changes dramatically, does it? We're in a situation where we need to be thinking of the sort of changes at the pace we made in the preparations for World War Two, and that requires different thinking, and that's what the bill would drive.
Mark Maslin 13:53
And I have to say, I think this is revolutionary, because I don't think our listeners actually understand that even at international level, we have a COP for climate change. We have a COP for biodiversity. And it was only three years ago that the scientist informing both of those COPs actually got together and wrote a joint report going, “Oh, climate change affects biodiversity, and biodiversity and ecology affect climate change. Who knew?” And so therefore, I think if the UK can bring this in and say, Look, this is a national thing that we're going to do, joining these two clearly linked areas, that will send a huge signal. Because they're not doing it internationally, and no other country is doing it. But that leads into my ideas of practicality. So the bill has already had its second reading. Can you walk through what the next process? Because, I mean, most people go “it's gone to Parliament. Isn't that done and dusted?”
Simon Oldridge 14:51
Well, it's a complicated process getting these bills through, and it's absolutely crazy that it didn't go through at this stage, because the debate was constructive and it was moving forward. And then what happened was Labour had threatened their MPs with the removal of the whip if they voted to take the bill forward to the, basically, only just to the next stage to properly consider it. And so that made life incredibly difficult for these MPs. Removal of the whip means removing of all government supportable briefing papers, election support and everything. And if they don't have that, it sort of threatens their position and staying in Parliament. So it put them in a really difficult position. And I think it's absolutely outrageous.
Now what's happened is the bill has now technically been adjourned till the 11th of July, and we understand that this is a technique commonly used by governments to quietly kill off bills, because on the 11th of July, the expectation is they'll say, “Oh, we've suddenly got some more important priorities, and I'm sorry, but it's not going to be debated now”. Our mission for now, I think, needs to be to hold them to that. You know, at the end of the debate, there was an announcement, this debate will now continue on the 11th of July. Well, I think it damn well should continue. How can, what I think everyone agrees, is the greatest challenge that humanity has ever been faced be pushed off the agenda by some other priority? So I think it has to be debated, and we won't give up on this.
Simon Chin-Yee 16:30
And what can we done in terms of public pressure to ensure that there's more pressure on government, that this doesn't just get pushed aside? That's one of Zero Hour’s key goals right, to build broad public support? So how can you mobilize, you said, Citizens Assemblies earlier. But how can you mobilize the general public to make sure that pressure is keep being put on government?
Simon Oldridge 16:52
So we've now got 70,000 people signed up to our campaign and you know, and they're going out there, they're writing letters to the local press, to their MPs, they're sharing stuff in WhatsApp groups, and crucially, they're going around and they're talking to friends and family. And actually, that's one of the most impactful things you can do. People trust face-to-face comms a lot more than social media. So we're hugely grateful to these people, and this number is growing all the time. So and if you want to join the campaign, please go to zerohour.uk.
Oh, I should also mention that there's been huge work with local districts and county councillors, and even parish councillors, who've brought motions to their council to call for the government to back the bill. So there's now hundreds of councils, and there's businesses as well, like the Co-op bank, who are providing huge support and sharing all this with their customers. And so we're going to keep driving that forwards. And so I guess the pressure needs to come from everywhere, and in the end, it's the MPs are the last to act. I mean, it's super frustrating, because they should just listen to the science.
Mark Maslin 18:08
Simon, I always say that everybody should listen to scientists, but hey, I'm a scientist. I've seen billion euro companies go from going, “what is the environment”, to being winners at the climate the carbon disclosure project, because people talked about it and decided to take action within the company. And then suddenly the CEO goes, “Oh, this is a great idea”, and then takes those ideas and runs with it. So I think people underestimate the power of just having a conversation, hence why we do this podcast.
Simon Chin-Yee 18:43
Exactly. And in fact, I just want to say it's so frustrating because we've had these solutions, actually, for a while. Now, this is not brand-new news.
UCL Minds 18:52
You're listening to UCL Generation One turning science and ideas into climate action.
Simon Chin-Yee 18:59
So Simon, as someone who follows the international climate policy myself, I'm really interested in what changes were made in the bill itself in the past week. Before it was resubmitted or re-read, I guess, in understanding what the UK, what this bill proposes the UK does. Because in my understanding, it is just literally saying what we have been committed to over the past 10 years.
Simon Oldridge 19:27
Absolutely yes. Well, Labour didn't engage with the bill or our sponsors until the absolute last minute, which was a sign, really, that they weren't very interested in moving forwards with this. But at the very last minute, there was a suggestion that if we slightly lessened, or somewhat lessened the ambition of the climate targets – moving away from 1.5 degree driven limit to our share of the carbon budget, to simply locking it into our international commitments under the Paris Agreement – that they would consider it. Now, in the end, they didn't, but that's where the bill has landed up.
So now we have a situation where the bill really shouldn't be a big ask for the government. They've made commitments on climate under the Paris Agreement, so we've got a 68% reduction in emissions by 2030 and then we've got commitments for 2035 and one coming out soon, for 2040 now and then on nature. The bill effectively locks to our commitments made under the global biodiversity framework the coming Treaty, which are fantastic, and they would be transformative. Now on climate, it's not as much as we would want, and we would keep fighting for something bolder, but if this bill was accepted, it is still a business as usual breaker.
It can't carry on as we are, because in order to hit our 2030 targets, of our international 2030 targets, which are significantly tighter than our domestic targets, we would need to make, if we include aviation and shipping, which currently isn't included, and obviously we say it should be, then that would mean we'd have to reduce emissions by 40% by 2030. And that would change everything, that would finally force government to face up to the climate crisis now, not just make promises for future parliaments and carry on doing everything in the same way as usual.
Mark Maslin 21:32
So Simon, do you think that Labour are kicking it down the road because they didn't come up with it? Is this because it's this party politics thing, which is because they have committed to climate and nature? Is it because it's not their bill, or is it because they think it undermines what they're trying to do in government?
Simon Oldridge 21:53
That's a good question. Well, let me answer that personally, it's not a Zero Hour position. The bill would mean they'd have to change everything. They'd have to finally confront that we are facing a really serious crisis, and shift away from business as usual. And they wouldn't be able to do that unless they actually started talking about it. And we all know Labour don't, governments don't talk about the climate and nature crisis because it doesn't play well in focus groups. And I know this from someone close to the government, and I think they just want to keep their heads down. They're fearful of the billionaire press. They're fearful of reform, but by doing that, they're just dancing to the tune of the billionaires. What they need to do is get onto the front foot. They need to make a national announcement like they did with COVID, and paint a grand vision and explain how we are facing this really serious threat. But actually, by taking action, we can benefit. And I think that's a big step for them to take, and they are, no doubt, fearful of a backlash in the right-wing press, and they perhaps have just concluded they can keep their heads in the sand and ignore it. They are obviously wrong.
Simon Chin-Yee 23:12
I understand why Citizens Assemblies are really important to someone in Political Sciences myself, but I'm wondering how these Citizens Assemblies can actually move the thought process forward. Why are they so important for action on this particular bill?
Mark Maslin 23:28
Yes, because not everyone thinks Citizens Assemblies are a good idea. For example, Conservative MP Andrew Bowie spoke against them during the recent parliamentary debate, let us have a listen to him now.
Speaker 3 23:43
This bill would also establish a Climate and Nature Assembly to direct the Secretary of State strategy, a body in which the Secretary of State would be legally bound to follow, if any of the measures it proposed had the support of 66% of its members. Those members would be unelected and unaccountable, unlike members in this House.
This is not how decisions are made in this country. It's not how decisions should be made in this country. Laws and decisions are taken in this country by this Parliament. They are introduced mostly by the government, which commands a majority in this House. That government is held to account in this House by us as elected members, and we, in turn, are held to account by our constituents. We cannot outsource our responsibilities to an unelected, unaccountable and remote institution.
Mark Maslin 24:25
That was Andrew Bowie MP speaking at the House of Commons. So back to you, Simon. Why do you think Citizens Assemblies are actually crucial?
Simon Oldridge 24:36
Well, I would start that by saying I think it's incredibly powerful and essential to have this process where people feel that their concerns are being heard, and I don't think we will succeed if we just have the feeling of top-down policies being imposed on people. Particularly when we have the billionaire-owned press pumping out a denialist agenda and effectively radicalizing people against science. So I think this is, this is an incredibly important component of the bill.
Now, one thing I would say to people who we often hear, Well, we already have a Citizens Assembly. It's called Parliament. Well, you know, Parliament has served us very well up to well, okay, I'll take that back. Parliament has functioned and provided government, but we're facing a crisis that's pretty much different to anything than else before. We need something bigger. We need something that involves people more. And this is a way to help bring people around, and also to strengthen the hand of politicians. Because when politicians actually finally step up and implement the measures that we all know that are needed, which are quite bold. I mean, for example do we ban private jets, or do we tax them out of existence? You know, what we're going to do if they've got the results of a Citizens Assembly, where they've got, for example, an incredibly strong vote from that Citizens Assembly to severely curtail private jets. That gives them the strength of hand to act, and it will make it easier for them.
Mark Maslin 26:19
Well, Simon, I can let you into a secret. Because in 2019 the London Borough of Camden held the first climate change Citizen Assembly in England. And what was interesting is, you'll never guess who came to open it on the first day. Sir Keir Starmer. So he knows exactly what they are about, and I'm pretty sure he understands how useful they are, except, of course, they may disagree with his government.
Simon Oldridge 26:47
That's the problem.
Mark Maslin 26:51
So Simon I was fascinated with the reading of the bill, which had MPs from all parties supporting it, and two very vocal supporters from the Conservative Party. Can I ask you, how did you get this cross party support? How did you mobilize what is usually quite a divisive sort of like system of government? How did you get people to actually come together and go, “Hey, I know you have a different colour badge, but we're going to vote the same way”.
Simon Oldridge 27:25
Well, I think right from the start we had the view that the Conservative Party has gone off into sort of a crazy direction in Parliament. But actually, if you look at Conservatives out in local constituencies, they are people who usually really care about the environment. Very often care about the environment. And I know in my constituency, I came into this campaign by persuading, by helping persuade the local Conservative-led council to back the bill. And there are many Conservative councils across the country that back it. So the campaign was deliberately non-political, and there's no reason why everyone shouldn't support this.
Mark Maslin 28:07
We have a green and pleasant land. I see no reason why we shouldn't maintain that in the face of climate change and all the industrialization going on. Let's go back to the romanticism prior to the industrial revolution.
Simon Chin-Yee 28:23
So I agree with all of that, but there will always be people out there, Simon, that say that we need to prioritize growth. And as someone who works in that shipping space and decarbonization of shipping, that's something that comes up a lot. Where do we move from here in terms of decarbonization, when it comes to looking at economic growth, as it were?
Simon Oldridge 28:46
Well, that's a big question, isn't it? I think first of all, what is really clear in study after study is that if we act to decarbonize, there is a really big payback, and there's a payback from protecting nature too. I think it was an Oxford University study that said that decarbonization by 2050 of the world would save the world $12 trillion. Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer are just wrong. They are reaching for these easy solutions that are offered to them by the big, powerful lobby lobbyists, the big powerful companies that have reach and can access government, you know, like this Heathrow expansion. Instead of stepping back and actually saying, “Look, we know we can't go on like this, let's look at doing things differently”. Now that takes courage. It takes imagination, and I think we need a little bit more of that in government. Because if we take the grand decisions and make the really big investments, based on long-term thinking, that is how to achieve real prosperity, but in harmony with nature, so we don't destroy the environment that we're living in.
Mark Maslin 30:07
Very simple question: What can our listeners do to support the bill?
Simon Oldridge 30:13
Well, we're always really grateful for help from people around the country. That's where our power comes from. So please do go to our website, which is zerohour.uk. And you can click to join the campaign, or you can click to write to your MP. Put your post code in, and it will tell you whether they your MP supports it or not. Please contact them. Tell them how you feel, and then the big thing is, please talk about it. Please ask your friends to sign up and talk about your feelings about the climate crisis. We can reach a better future, but we need to overcome this block of short-term thinking first, and requires us to cross a tipping point where it starts to become a big issue and shifts up the agenda. So please talk about it and pressure your MP.
Mark Maslin 31:08
Brilliant. Thank you, Simon.
Simon Chin-Yee 31:11
Thanks, Simon, thank you.
Mark Maslin 31:17
So I want to say a great thank you to Simon Oldridge, because, again, that passion, that power and that mobilization of public support is so important in a democracy. So if you're interested in getting involved in climate action, please join us on the 17th of February, where we will be holding UCL Love Your Planet 2025. And if you're listening to this on catch up and it's past that date, don't worry. We're streaming it all, and you can catch it on the UCL YouTube channel.
Simon Chin-Yee 31:59 That's it for this episode of generation one from UCL, turning climate science and ideas into action. But stay tuned for the rest of the series, or listen on catch up to all our episodes on your favorite platform. If you'd like to ask a question or suggest a guest that you would like to hear on Generation One, you can email us on podcasts@ucl.ac.uk. Otherwise for more information about UCL's work in the climate space and what our staff, students and researchers are doing to make a more sustainable future, head to the UCL generation one website. Or follow us on all social media #UCLGenerationOne.