Climate Change


Climate Podcast: How do we make London as bike friendly as Amsterdam?

This week we're tackling the question: how do we make London as bike friendly as Amsterdam? Host Helen Czerski is joined by Richard Jackson, Director of Sustainability at UCL and Will Norman, Walking and Cycling Commissioner for London and TFL. They are discussing cycling in London, plans for making it even safer, and the impact of electric scooters on our streets.


UCL Minds  0:01  
We are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change and the last generation that can do something about it.

Will Norman  0:10  
The streets in London were not designed for cars. The streets predate cars by a long time, but for decades we have designed our city for the car.

Richard Jackson  0:19  
I see bad behaviours all over the place. I suppose the question is how do we tackle bad behaviour.

Will Norman  0:27  
The roaming distance of an average nine year olds not independently is not dissimilar to that of a free range chicken.

Helen Czerski  0:42  
This is generation one from University College London turning climate science and ideas into action. Hello, and welcome to Generation One. I'm Helen Czerski, a physicist and oceanographer here at UCL. Now we humans are mobile and curious. And the modern world is full of places that we like or need to get to the multiple places where our friends and our work and our leisure activities are. And so that gives us a practical problem on a daily basis. How are we going to move from A to B, here in London, my solution is almost always my bike, because it's quickest. And I can hop off to walk around a traffic jam, and I get to see the city I get to see what's going on as I cycled past. And we often hear about cycling is something that we should be doing more of for the environment for our health for more livable cities. But lots of people are hesitant about getting started. So this is our topic for today cycling, why it matters how to make the system work for everyone and what we're doing about it here at UCL. In a moment, I'm going to be speaking to two very enthusiastic cyclists who are working hard to make cycling, particularly here in London, a much safer and more enjoyable experience. But before I introduce them, I'm going to take a moment to remind you how you can get involved both in the podcast and also in UCL to climate work and campaigns. We have a website, which is ucl.ac.uk/cliamte-change. And there's all kinds of news and research and practical information that so do have a look at that. Obviously, we'd love it if you would rate and subscribe to this podcast, wherever you get your podcasts from, I share it with everyone. And we're also on Instagram and Twitter. The hashtag is #UCLGenerationOne, and so you can comment and suggest future topics there. And you can also do that by email. And the email address is podcasts@ucl.ac.uk. And if you want to you can send voice notes. And if we can include it in a future episode, we will.

UCL Minds  2:41  
You're listening to UCL generation one, turning science and ideas into climate action.

Helen Czerski  2:48  
I'm a lifelong cyclist. And there was only one time when it wasn't my default mode of transport. And that was a period when I lived in the parts of America where you really couldn't do anything without a car. Here in the UK, and especially in London, I often hear people say they would like to cycle but and I'm really interested in what comes after that. But if people want to cycle what's stopping them? Is it just habit? Or is our cycling infrastructure not up to scratch yet. There are some cities in the world and Utrecht and Amsterdam are the most obvious examples where everyone really does cycle all the time. But it isn't magic. They weren't like that 30 or 40 years ago, they made a conscious effort to change. So how do we do the same?

Joining me to talk about bike cycling and how it all works. Here in London, we have two fantastic experts as normal. First up, we have Richard Jackson, who's the director of sustainability here at UCL. He started over 10 years ago. And throughout that time has been working hard to make sure that we walk the walk as well as talk the talk when it comes to sustainability, both in the way we operate and also in the way we teach and carry out our research. And with us on the line is Dr. Wil Norman who is transport for London's Commissioner for cycling and walking. And it's his job to make the capital A safer and easier place to ride a bike. So welcome to you both. So first of all, I'm interested in your connection to cycling and how you got into it and whether you cycle and whether you've always been an enthusiast about it. Richard, very briefly, how What's your relationship to cycling?

Richard Jackson  4:24  
Thank you for the introduction. I've cycled since I was a young boy. You know, I grew up in Manchester and my parents encouraged me and my two brothers to cycle. So we cycled to school. We cycled to scouts. we cycled all over the town that we lived in. And so I've always felt felt connected to you know, my bike, and as I've got older, the bike has become my means of moving from A to B. I feel it's a way in which I stay healthy and stay fit keeps my mind fit and healthy as well. I love being on my bike. Equally. It's it's worth admitting that you know, I drive I walk so I Don't sort of purely sort of consider myself a cyclist. I consider myself a sort of a road user. And I think that's quite important in this context.

Helen Czerski  5:07  
So you are definitely a hardcore cyclists from the beginning. And how about you? Well, how What's your relationship to cycling?

Will Norman  5:14  
So much like Richard, I learned to ride a bike as a kid, I still got the scars on my on my knees when I was doing overly ambitious jumps on a on a badly badly put together BMX in the 1980s. But I have to admit it sort of I took, I sort of stopped cycling for a while, particularly as a student in Edinburgh. But I didn't really take the cycling to begin with when I first arrived in London until I was working for myself, and I was sort of going to meet people and meet clients and different people. And I'd always have to factor in so much time just in case there was a delay or there was traffic jams, or there wad frlsyd. And I was moaning to someone about this because I'd spend an ordinate amount of time just waiting around at my destination. So I was moaning about this to a friend and they said, oh, you should try bike, you always know when you're going to get there. And I said, Okay, I'll give that a go. And it worked perfectly. And so ever since then, I've been using my bike as a mechanism of getting around. But again, much like Richard, I'm not exclusively wedded to it. I'd never described myself as a cyclist. You know, like most people in London are, you sort of pick the right mode of transport for the right journey.

Helen Czerski  6:16  
Brilliant. Thank you. So I think so. So the important thing about that is we've got people here with cycling experience and enthusiasm, but who are not completely committed to winning, there's no sort of hardcore, everybody should cycle all of the time here. Although I have to admit that probably is me most of the time. So let's start here at UCL, which is perhaps a microcosm of the whole city. So Richard over the time that you've been at UCL. What's changed when it comes to cycling? And have you seen changes in people's attitudes to cycling to campus?

Richard Jackson  6:44  
Yeah, we've seen loads of change in 10 years. And I really think that that change reflects the change we've seen in London, you know, we've seen more and more people want to cycle to the university. And as a result of that, we've seen more and more people asking us questions about the quality of the facilities we have here. Do we have good cycle parking? is a cycle parking safe? Do we have lockers available for people to put their stuff in? Are there showers available to people changing, and where we've increased the I suppose the quality of the cycle parking provision, so we've got more than sort of seven 800 places or new place people to park their bikes. What we haven't done yet is really kind of thought about the associated facilities. So so we do have limited space here. And I think what we need to focus on his Passover next phase of developing this is some of the things that people like to use once they arrive by bike so have a shower at work, be able to put their stuff their cycle helmet, their their bike panniers, into a locker. So we're looking at how we provide for that around the campus.

Helen Czerski  7:40  
So we've got a pattern, at least here at UCL have more people wanting to cycle but we'll just want to cover once one really basic thing, which is that we're hearing a lot about everyone should be cycling, or you know, we want people to cycle more. And your job is to look at, you know, the city as a whole as a whole. What we really want is transport that works. And so why do you think that cycling should be high on that list as as how Londoners should get around,

Will Norman  8:01  
currently in a moment, but 63% of journeys in London are walking, cycling and public transport. And we are we set a target by 2041 to get to 80% of our journeys, walking, cycling and public transport. And the reason for this is really addressing some of the challenges that London has like every other major city in the world, we have an inactivity crisis, we've got the most inactive generation of kids in history, the chronic disease burden that comes from from physical inactivity is astonishing. You know if you if you if you did 20 minutes of physical activity a day, you're you reduce all cause mortality by 20%. It's great for our physical and our mental health. We've got an air pollution problem. 4000 people die in London prematurely just because of the air they breathe. And so much of that comes from pollution from the from the cars, we've got congestion that costs millions of pounds to the economy. Every year, we've got road danger, you know, over 3000 people are killed or seriously injured on our roads every year. And then there's also the big one, there's climate change, over 25% of our carbon emissions in London come from road transport. So we have to do everything we can to reduce the number of car journeys and increase the amount of sustainable journeys, walking, cycling and public transport. I could droned on about this for hours because there are no shortage is of good reasons why more of us should use our bikes more often. 

Helen Czerski  9:26  
Okay so what I'm interested in and what I'm always interested in, in this discussion is that there's lots of logical reasons for people cycling lots, lots more, and yet it doesn't happen. And so what I'm interested in is what you hear about what is stopping people from cycling because this might mean it could be actual experience. It could be perceptions. It could be practicalities that you know no one's dealt with. So well. First, what stops people from cycling in London at the moment,

Will Norman  9:53  
it is very clear what the biggest barriers are for people to use their bikes more get on a bike, try cycling and that is feeling safe. That is partly actual safety, because some of the roads are, are dangerous and are not designed for bikes. Or there are perceptions of safety. For every group that we've surveyed interviewed and done research on, is repeatedly come up, it's about how do we make our roads and our streets safer for people to cycle. And lo and behold, where we do deliver the bike lanes, what we see is a lot of people using them a huge uplift in in usage. So the sort of old adage build it and they will come is true, you build the bike lanes, people use them. And this is shown repeatedly time and time again,

Helen Czerski  10:35  
it is something was very noticeable to me that whenever I mentioned because there are more and more cycle lanes in London, as you said, it's very noticeable to me that whenever I you know, often people who don't cycle go, oh, well, there are no cycle lanes, and I go, Oh, this, this loads that everywhere. And then they come back to me three days later and go, Oh, they really are everywhere. I just hadn't seen them. And I think it's quite interesting, because you don't, lots of people don't see cycling infrastructure unless they're on a bike. And so it's kind of hard to convince them that it exists, because they haven't seen it. Sort of because their brain wasn't looking for it. And Richard, from the University's point of view, what can universities do to help? You know, you mentioned a few things, but what are the what are the things that have really made a difference? 

Richard Jackson  11:17  
So a lot of the stuff that we try and do is firstly provide the right facilities, which I've already mentioned. The second thing is then think about how do we provide the right information for people, you know, so from everything, like how do I get a bike? Where do I get it from, we try and make secondhand bikes available, but we also point people in the direction where they can get some, you know, cheap bikes, so they can move from A to B. And we're keen to kind of get people maps. So so it's really important that people know where those safe streets are, where the quiet roadways are, where the cycle lanes are. What we find at the start of term is the NFP some people really want to cycle but as Will said they feel they've got perception that it's unsafe on the roads, they're not sure the right routes to take. So what we trialled during the COVID, the start of the COVID pandemic was a series of sort of bike buddies, we found volunteers within UCL who would, who were confident cyclists who would be happy to kind of cycle up or buddy up with somebody and cycle them into campus. And what this does is start to build people's confidence. And you know, I think there's a lot of things we can do to kind of just get people's confidence on the road. I think as a culture, we've moved away from a sort of a culture of cycling, if that makes sense. And when I grew up, I had a bike but everybody I knew had a bike, it was the means by which me and my friends would get around. What's interesting between the UK and say, Amsterdam is Amsterdam and the Netherlands, they have this culture of cycling, where it's is second nature to kind of just travel by bike around. So yes, we need to address the perception of safety. But we also need to think about how do we build this kind of this into our culture, that from the very earliest age, we want to kind of have a bike we want to get around by bikes.

Will Norman  12:52  
Yeah, Richard, I agree with that. I think it's interesting. You mentioned the Amsterdam piece. Amsterdam wasn't always like that, in 1970, it was car dominated and as as London, and yet they went through this change, you know, partly sparked by the oil crisis, partly sparked by a really tragic death of a young person, and mom's campaigning for change. But they changed the way that the city operates. And they made those streets safe, so that cycling could become second nature. And you know, Copenhagen same thing, they had a crisis with their their economy, and it was actually cycling was the cheapest transport infrastructure that they could put in, when the city was on the verge of bankruptcy. And so, you know, there is a there is there's precedent here from other cities that actually you can change this culture. And I think this is, this is this is exactly what is beginning to happen in London. I do agree with you that children, you know, we know from all the behavioural science that these patterns and habits are formed early. And so giving early positive experiences for children of being physically active cycling, walking, is absolutely essential, you know, the role of how you get to school, it's important, and sadly, you know, because of the dangers of road danger, peep, the roaming distance of kids is reduced. You know, somebody told me, I don't know if it's true or not. But it's a good story, that the average roaming of roaming distance of an average nine year old not independently is not dissimilar to that of a free range chicken. And so we really need to extend beyond free range kids.

Helen Czerski  14:21  
Okay, so we're coming back to this thing, basically, about roads about what a road is. And this idea that there is a perception that has been in this country, certainly a perception of a road is a place for cars, but actually what a road actually is, and the Highway Code backs this up is it's a shared space for vehicles, for people who want to get from somewhere to somewhere else. So we'll how do we approach the the organisation of sharing this space?

Will Norman  14:45  
Well, you're right, you know, the streets in London were not designed for cars. The streets predate cars by a long time but for decades, we have designed our city for the car and what we are doing in the process of doing now is thinking actually no, what we need to do is designed for protocal for new streets, that's quite easy, where you've got new developments, you've put in the facilities to put in bike lanes and what have you. You know, the challenge here is retrofitting this into existing infrastructure. And that involves making sure that you know, there has to be a functioning city to operate, we need freight, we need transport, we need our construction, trucks coming in and sorting sorting things out. But this is about making sure that the balance is there, that the buses still operate, the freight can get around the central car journeys can still move around. But a third of all car journeys in London are less than two kilometres. Now, that's a huge potential for driving a mode shift to cycling and walking. And what we need to do is be able to change the streets. So that enable people to make that choice for those journeys that make most sense, particularly the local ones in local areas.

Helen Czerski  15:46  
So could you just describe it specifically for people in London? What features are we talking about that are there now on what will be coming in the future?

Will Norman  15:54  
So people might you know, you said, if you look out for the cycle infrastructure, you will see their green cycleway signs which direct people around, there are separate lanes on our roads, either separated by curbs or by magic ones, the ones the plastic bollards that keep cycling cyclists safe. So on the main roads, they'll see that sort of thing on some of the quieter roads, as a matter of how do we reduce the traffic along those routes, so that it's safe enough for people to cycle. And that's been done through filtering by putting in planters through making streets accessible through only one way so that you don't necessarily get the cut through traffic along along these routes. And the combination of those, those changes to the roads on the main roads and the local streets are exactly what you'll see. And then there's also making the junctions safer. And the junctions are probably the most difficult piece to do. But the most important piece to do because 80% of collisions happen at junctions. So people will be seeing advanced stop lines for bikes, their little traffic lights that are positioned at a cycle level, that gives the bikes their own time to get through a junction safely before they're mixing with with larger vehicles. So it's that sort of change that we're rolling out in London.

Helen Czerski  17:04  
So Richard, I wanted to ask about your experience as a cyclist on the roads. And this there is often this perceived to be this tension between cyclists and drivers and drivers and cyclists. What tensions Do you see? And whose fault? Or how could they be improved?

Richard Jackson  17:21  
It's really interesting, this, I see bad behaviours all over the place. And I suppose the question is, how do we tackle bad behaviour, so that we get and kind of get better behaviours on the road, whether you're a cyclist, or whether you're a driver? Again, I've thought a lot about this, you know, I think part of this starts from when you first experienced the road. So come back to my own experience, I did a cycling proficiency as a six year old, I loved that I loved that the sense of earning a certificate to give me validity to ride my bike. But actually where has cycling proficiency gone, you know, I know, it's still offered by some local authorities. But actually, you know, why is this not sort of more widely offered? The second thing is about sort of like the the way we use, I think, sort of the driving test. At the moment, I think the driving test is very much about how do you get in a car and drive your car competently? I do wonder whether actually we start to, we should start to broaden that out. So actually, as you take your driving test, you begin to experience other modes. When you're aware of being a cyclist, and you're sitting behind the steering wheel of a car, you pull out foot further, because you're conscious of how it feels when somebody close passes you. You know, I think when people haven't had that experience, you know, inevitably they do things which actually a cyclist might feel threatened by, and it leads to real tension between the, you know, the cyclist and the driver. And I think there are things we can do which can overcome that.

Helen Czerski  18:46  
Well, I'm interested in this question of education, you know, the highway code changed recently was it kind of came out slowly in bits and pieces that were that were slightly strange the way the media story around it happened. But that's an attempt to educating road users for a new way of thinking about roads. So how are we doing with that in London, you know, are people changing their behaviour and what what education do we need here?

Will Norman  19:09  
The Highway Code is not a silver bullet on this, it sets a framework and it sets out the rules. But when was the last time you will Richard ever read the Highway Code?

Helen Czerski  19:19  
 I I, you know, I have to have my hands up. I actually did read it. I read the whole thing than you want when it came out. And I felt like such a geek for doing it.

Will Norman  19:26  
I'm very pleased you did but I think you might be in a minority. You know, most people I talked to who haven't read the Highway Code since they passed their driving test. And so therefore I think this needs to go way beyond just highway codes. And then education I think Richards right, teaching kids and we offer bikeability, which is a bike training for all kids and all adults free of charge through London boroughs. So if people want to learn to ride their bike, they can go on and get some bike training they should get onto the TFL website and they can find out more about that but it's goes way beyond just training up cyclists. This is a whole culture on the roads and As you know, from my perspective, there is I think there's quite a lot of aggressive behaviour on the roads that historically because the roads have been aggressive, aggressive places create grids, spark aggressive behaviour, and it comes back to making those spaces safer. And I think scaling back that language, and some of the way that this is presented in the media is important, because ultimately, we're all just people trying to get around the city and and get on with each other.

Helen Czerski  20:24  
So well, one of the big trends of the past few years is is the rise of what has been called micro mobility, which is not just bikes, but tricycles and electric unicycles, and scooters and E cargo bikes and electric skateboards. And some of those, particularly the scooters are not actually legal on the roads at the moment, unless it's a specific scheme. So how do all of those overlap with cycling and cycling infrastructure? Like how do we share all this space between all this this myriad of different things,

Will Norman  20:52  
Some of this stuff is having a wonderful change in the city, the you know, the E cargo bikes are taking freight off the roads, which is which is good for everybody getting kids to school, you can see this whole changes happening there. But you mentioned e scooters, and they've been really quite controversial. And, you know, it's a very strange situation, it's very clear that situation at the moment is just simply not working. It's it's legal, you can go to shops to go and buy one. But it's illegal to use that on the public road, which is, you know, this lack of regulation is is madness. And, and I think is leading to a lot of a lot of the problems here, because of the lack of regulation. E scooters can come in all shapes and sizes, you know, I was out with a metropolitan police the other day, and some of these things can do 60 miles an hour, are currently in London with we're doing a trial. So we've got permission from the government to do a trial, which is testing approaches to try and make them safer. So the speeds are capped at 12 and a half miles an hour, we've got brakes, we've got number plates, you need an Glice, a driving licence or provisional driving licence to be able to hire them. And what we're seeing from the outcomes of those trials is that these, we're seeing far fewer injuries and far fewer problems with that. And so I do think that what we need to do is sort out the government very clearly needs to sort out the legal situation here, because it's not working, we can't enforce the law as it currently stands, there are too many of them that don't have the police resources, and we can't uninvent them. So the only way forward is to make them as safe as possible. And in London, we're trialling this to try and figure out well, what are the best ways that we can make them as safe as possible? And then what role can they play in the urban transport system?

Helen Czerski  22:27  
So because we don't have an infinite amount of time, and podcast listeners probably have something else to do at some point. I I'd like to kind of just one final question to both of you, which is, what are the sort of misconceptions about cycling that you most often hear or myths that you most want to correct? You know, what are the things that you feel you wish you could walk around with wearing a t shirt saying, think this instead of that, Richard, do you want to go first?

Richard Jackson  22:49  
I really wish you'd not put that question to me first.

Helen Czerski  22:52  
I'm mean like that.

Richard Jackson  22:55  
I think despite what we see, and I'm reading in the papers, I think the first thing is, is to address this misconception about safety. Yes, there are dangers on the road for all users. But uh, but I do think with the measures that TfL are driving forward, and also kind of what we're seeing with more people using bikes, I think we're beginning to see safe environments for cyclists. So I do think it's, it's a safe environment out there, I think some of the quiet routes, have to say, are brilliant. And this is from somebody who's recently sort of moved eastward. So I come in on on the quiet route too. And that is such a perfect way to arrive at work, I don't have too much conflict, which actually means I don't kind of come really angry into the office. It's nice and smooth. You know, it's, there's, there's very, very few major roads across. So there's been a lot of thought around where some of these routes are. And so therefore, I encourage as many people as possible to get on their bikes and try the Quiet quiet route to cycle around because it's a great way of kind of coming around the city

Helen Czerski  23:59  
Will, any misconceptions or myths that you hear?

Unknown Speaker  24:02  
 Oh, I wish I had gone first on that one because, like, like, Richard, I think the safety one is absolutely essential. You know, there is a misconception that cycling is unsafe, there are risks doing anything, but it is safer than ever before to ride a bike statistically in London is getting safer by the day as we roll out this semester. But um, I think the other piece that I want to touch on is some of the new technologies you look at what's happening in other countries in Germany, something like half the bikes that are sold are electric bikes. And for people who might be a bit older for people who might not necessarily want to arrive sweating in the office. I want to sort of shatter this myth that electric bikes are somehow cheating or they're somehow lazy. There's this bizarre misconception in London or in the in the UK, British culture seems to think Oh, e bikes, you're, you're cheating. You know, these are pedal assist, you still have to pedal you get 80% of the physical activity. They're a great way of getting around and I would I would Want to bust the myth that the bikes are somehow somehow cheating, they're a brilliant way of getting around. And they allow an awful lot more people to try cycling.

Helen Czerski  25:08  
That is a great way. There's a whole separate episode on E bikes that we haven't got time for. But anyway, and the one thing actually, I'm going to get myself out on here a little bit, which is, first of all, I everyone said it have a go if you don't cycle have a go. But that also I think people underestimate. If you use Google or some mapping thing and you tell it, you're on a bike, it will you don't have to go looking for these these routes, these quiet routes and the cycle lanes. Google knows where they are. And it will do the work for you. And you will discover things you didn't know existed. I don't need Google to navigate around the city. But I use it because I find things I didn't know where they're psychopaths. And I think that's great. So thank you very, very much to my two guests for today. Well, and Richard for being very enthusiastic about cycling, and the things that are happening in the city. Lots of reasons to be optimistic for the future, I think which is great. So thank you to both of you.

Unknown Speaker  25:57  
Thanks, Helen. Great, thanks, Helen.

UCL Minds  26:02  
You're listening to UCL generation one, turning science and ideas into climate action.

Helen Czerski  26:10  
We're just about to get marks roundup of all the climate news stories that you need to know about this week. But just before that, just want to spend a moment to encourage you to get involved in the podcast and UCL climate work. You can find all about that@ucl.ac.uk forward slash climate hyphen change, so you can rate and subscribe to the podcast. We'd love it. If you do that. Do send us some feedback, send us comments and questions to the email address podcasts@ucl.ac.uk and do connect to us on Twitter and Instagram. But now it's time to join Mark Maslin for the climate news roundup.

Mark Maslin  26:53  
And so to the climate change news starting the week of the 30th of May 2022. In Paris, a 36 year old man dressed as a woman jumps out of a wheelchair and smeared cake onto the glass screen protecting the Mona Lisa painting. He then threw roses everywhere. The man is purported to have said there are people who are destroying the earth, or artists think about the Earth. That is why I did this. He has been arrested and placed in psychiatric care. equally bizarre. Last week, Penguin Random House published Alex Epstein's book called Fossil Future, which basically plays down the impacts of climate change, and suggests that fossil fuels are the solutions to all the world's issues. The book conclusions are not supported by the scientific evidence, and there are many places where it attempts to mislead the reader. So bizarrely, Penguin had published a climate change denial book. In Australia, Labour secures a majority government in what people have dubbed the climate change election. Labour, the greens and the TEALS. Were all campaigning for strong action on climate change with higher targets. The preferential voting system opened the pathway for independents to bypass the right wing hyper partisan approach to climate policy and lead to a tectonic shift in Australian politics. Government enforcers around the world are on the hunt for companies making misleading claims about their so called eco friendly products. In the UK, the Advertising Standards Authority is proposing to warn HSBC about their false advertisement of their so called green accomplishments. While in the US the Federal Trade Commission has fined retailers Walmart and Kohl's for marketing dozens of very long textile products has been made from eco friendly bamboo. Well, that was the climate news from bizarre art to even more bizarre denial books to Australian positive politics to the stirring of powerful financial watchdogs worldwide to root out greenwashing. Thank you for listening.

Helen Czerski  29:13  
That's it for this episode of generation want from UCL turning climate science and ideas into action. Thank you very much to my fabulous guests Richard Jackson and Dr. Wil Norman. And don't forget to leave a comment and raters wherever you get your podcasts. The final edition of this series of generation one from UCL will be available next Wednesday. But my co host Mark Maslin will be talking about how climate change is increasing the number of natural disasters and what we can do to mitigate them or avoid them altogether. But good bye for now.