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This episode brings together recruiters, HR staff, freelancers and other professionals from organisations including Somerset House and the Museums Association to share views on what the current picture is on jobs and recruitment, what the future of the industry may look like and what students can be doing now to try and carve out their first steps for their career.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
organisation, museums, people, programme, sector, skills, recruitment, job, conservation, learning, digital, career, opportunities, role, work, terms, collections, moment, called, bit
SPEAKERS
Jo Budd, Nicole Estwick, Dhikshana Turakhia Pering, Tamsin Russell, Kate Danielson, Susan Bradshaw, Lucy Moore
Jo Budd
00:05
My name is Jo Budd, and I'm a careers consultant here at UCL careers. In this episode, our guest panelists share their perspectives on jobs and recruitment within the museums Arts and Cultural Heritage sector, recorded as part of the UCL careers museum Arts and Cultural Heritage themed week. We hear from five excellent speakers from a range of roles who share their thoughts on various types of work opportunities available to students during the current climate, how the pandemic has affected the career paths available, as well as some suggestions on what students can do to boost their career prospects while at university. So let's get into it.
Nicole Estwick
00:46
I’m joined by Dhikshana Turakhia Pering who is the head of engagement and skills at Somerset House, I'm joined by Tamsin Russell, who is the Workforce Development Officer from the Museums Association. I'm also joined by Kate Danielson can is the director of Weston Jerwood Creative Bursaries. I'm joined by Susan Bradshaw, who is the head of professional development at the Institute of conservation. And finally, I'm joined by Lucy Moore, who is a projects curator at Leeds City Council. And she's also a member of the organisation Fair Museum Jobs. So thank you very much all for joining us this evening. I guess we should begin with a bit of a introduction in terms of you, your background, and kind of a bit about your career history and your current role. So I guess if we begin with you Dhikshana, if you want to introduce yourself, and share a bit about your career history, and and your current role.
Dhikshana Turakhia Pering
01:40
Happily, sorry, I was about to cough. Thank you, thank you for having me. And also thank you for joining me in my living room, the weird world that we live in. And so I thought I'd go through my career history and a little bit about me personally as well. So my career in the cultural sector started in 2006. During my art history, and history degree at the University of Aberdeen and volunteering, interning at the Wallace collection British Museum naval historical Centre in Washington, DC. I then completed a museum and a master's in museum and gallery education at the UCL Institute of Education. And in April 2016, I became an elected trustee for the museum's Association Hello Townsend, who are working actively on workforce development, supporting the development of conferences and currently leading the future of learning engagement Manifesto, which we just launched two weeks ago, and I will share a link to it a bit later on as well because it's really a brilliant piece of work, even if I'm biased in saying that but I also think it's important that anyone that wants to work within museums and galleries should be looking at his guide. I've lectured and given talks on masters courses and at national international conferences looking to share and learn from best practices and actively be part of the change I decided to see sector. The key to all of this as I had the opportunity to deliver learn and while building on the theory that I studied while I was at university and doing my Masters Science Museum, I had a number of roles explainer which are called blowing up things and making bubbles and travelling the world and getting to deliver live science shows. It's also where I met my husband. The table names at our wedding were galleries of the size Museum, yes releases I realise. And then I moved on to schools and community outreach officer moving on to managerial roles, overseeing the expanded team and national international outreach team and moved on to lead the Arts Council England young people skills programme, which is aimed at 18 to 25 year olds. This is where my love of workforce and the need to diversify our workforce really came into play. I worked with wider sector bodies such as creative and cultural skills to explore the many ways that young people and our workforce can have an impact on the work that we do. After this, I went on to work for Brent Council, which rent 2020, which is currently the bureau culture, not the year you'd want to be borrowed culture if I'm honest, but hey, they're working through it. I was able to scratch and scratch from scratch build a youth collective called the rent bereavement collective, a borough wide education programme linked to the cultural programme led a call of action about urban development with young people called seen and heard and also led on a series of podcasts with Vice called vent. And and then in January 2020, as an as a pandemic in Gulf the world I became head of engagement skills at Somerset House, not how I imagined starting my first job in a senior management and I won't lie, it's been a baptism of fire. But hey, if I can get through this year that I think I can get through anything in leading a team. In my initial months, I worked on a new strategy for the team which focused on stronger connections to young people and our cultural programme and diversifying our audiences. We changed our name from a learning and skills team to an engagement skills team, and thinking about how we can support our creative community and young people in the years ahead. I know that I've been really lucky to work in this sector building skills such as delivering, developing, managing and leading learning and engagement teams to success and focus still and diversifying our sector going beyond making collections or content content accessible, making this sector for and by everyone. I fell into this into the world of arts and culture. My trip to Aberdeen for university was because I did My levels didn't go to plan, but it was the best thing that ever happened to me. But we can't rely on people falling into the world of arts and culture for diversity to happen, and for our programming and audiences and collections to change. I also have a brilliant and challenging and chatty two year old son called Seth. I longed to have a lion. I watched I want to watch terrible ROM coms, especially Christmas ones. I love a monogram. I could eat spaghetti every day. I'm also dyslexic. So if I have any typos in the chat, I apologise the head. Thank you very much.
Nicole Estwick
05:29
All right, so thank you so much for that lots to pick up on as we go through the discussion. Right now maybe to Susan, would you like to give a brief introduction for yourself and your career history and your current role.
Susan Bradshaw
05:42
Okay, thanks Nicole. Hello, everybody. Well, I started off, I graduated in 1981. So quite a while ago now, it seems like the whole world has flashed by me. But I actually graduated with a degree in three dimensional design, and worked in the creative industry for three years. It was a difficult time then too in the 1980s for getting work. And I secured a post from my degree into that creative industry. So I was chuffed to bits. And unfortunately, they hit rough times too. And so I was made redundant and made to look for other or I was looking for other work as well, and hit across a job that was advertised locally for a trainee archive conservator. And that was how I entered the profession, working for Devon county council for 13 years, growing within the job, learning in the workplace, building on the skills I had from the my degree and learning about the knowledge around conservation too. In that time, while I was there, and through promotion, I developed my management skills, gained management qualification, and looked around to see how I could use that and build my position as a conservator looking at volunteering for the professional body at the time, which was the Society of archivists, which is now the archives and echoes Association, I sort of volunteered for the training role within the conservation specialist group. And that actually engaged me further gave me a lot more interest in how to sort of communicate how to advocate the profession, how to support those people who are learning and also addressing my learning skills at the time at the time learning these at the same time. And that actually was the key that made me sort of think I really, really am enjoying this. And therefore, I when the job of training officer came up for the archives, professional body, I was appointed, and sort of left the conservation profession behind for a bit, looking at how to develop archive archivists, records managers, and conservators within the profession. So really spreading the sort of the remit there. Until I come came along the Institute of conservation, I became very much involved with the professional accreditation of conservators, and initially was appointed as accreditation manager to look at how that was being developed. And we're actually hitting the 20th anniversary year this year for accreditation and conservation. So that's sort of really sort of the basis of where I am now I work for ICON. And I've been in my current role for nine years as head of professional development. And that entails sort of, obviously accreditation, but the overview of that I have a small team that works icon with me to promote and to manage and oversee that. internships, professional development opportunities, CPD very much so how to support members how to provide the right training events for them, and sort of the strategic issues around professional development as a whole. Thank you
Nicole Estwick
09:37
Thanks very much for that Susan. I'm going to continue going clockwise, so Lucy on to you, and if you want to give us a brief introduction.
Lucy Moore
09:45
Hi, everyone, and thanks very much for having us. And so I work for these museums and galleries and I'm our projects curator and well one of them is to actually and what we do is look after long term large scale, city wide projects. And up till last year, that was the centenary of the First World War which was a biggie. And, and we probably about 75%, of what we did was produced with communities or artists or people from all around the city. And so it was really nice. And they're about your stats are about 2.9 million people involved. So we got like, loads of visitors is amazing. And but I'm also involved with fare museum jobs. And what we do is advocate for better working practices in the sector. And museums are unfair. And I'll just say it now, the recruitment is unfair, and it has historically been unfair, and we want to see that change. And I, I really, feel really passionate about it. And because my first job was in the chip shop, I, you know, I didn't really know what museums or heritage kind of were from where I grew up. And, and I just think, you know, the more people there are the merrier. And I always like to drop in that I worked in the chip shop for a while, because it's where I got all my customer service skills, I can talk to anyone for as long as they'll have me. And because when someone's waiting for some fried fish, and it's not cooking, you've got her like, you know, do the time a day. And so I really believe in transferable skills as well. So please, you know, as we're chatting, think about, oh, well, I can't do that. But I can organise this. And yeah, looking forward to your questions later.
Nicole Estwick
11:51
Great, thank you very much really varied backgrounds we're hearing here. That's good to hear. And Tamsin, then on to you for a brief introduction.
Tamsin Russell
11:58
Thank you very much.
11:59
I was gonna echo that what I love is always hearing these stories, because it demonstrates to me that there's no one path. And I think that's really important. Whilst that might be frustrating, because unlike other professions where there's a very clear linear progression and vertical progression assets and doesn't have that, and for me, that's a strength, because that does mean that it is more open. And there are opportunities to be a lateral, so I'd be classed as a lateral. So I worked not in the museum sector, but in the retail sector for about, oh gosh, well, long time for about 15 years before making the move here. So I am an ex UCLA. So I did zoology is my first degree at UCL. So I love the grant Museum, and I need to pay off some debt. So I went and got a job, and then decided I was gonna apply for a PhD, didn't get it. So absolutely devastated. couldn't go into London Zoo for many years because it was so hard. So decided to go travelling again. I went travelling, came back still had loads of debt, decided how am I going to pay this debt off, and then go and live life more excitedly. So I got a job as a receptionist at Selfridges. And very quickly, I worked my way up. So six promotions later on, I ended up being their head of training and development for managers and leaders. And but knew there was something missing. So I've always loved museums, and a job came up at the Science Museum group. So I applied to be the head of department for training and development. And that was fantastic. And I enabled me to think more broadly about how to affect change and how to support individuals. And I sort of go from looking at individual level support to organisational level support. So when I'm working with individuals, I get so frustrated about the lack of transparency, the lack of generosity, and the institutional compromise that individuals have to experience that I then want to change the organisation so I then switched to organisational development. And then I get realised that actually how you affect change is through individuals, and then I switched back. So I'm currently actually in the best position that I do lots of my work at an individual level, but also I'm available to affect sector change. And that's more important than organisational change, because organisational change often is at the whim of whoever the CEO is in power at that particular point. So for me being able to affect sectoral change is far more exciting. Just two more things just really just
14:32
to highlight.
14:34
First one I’m very values led so generosity is important. To me, inclusion is important to me. Honesty is important to me, and I don't think this sector is always honest with itself or with others. And evidence based practice is really important to me. So we talk often and hear often about anecdotes. And I'm always the person that says what does the research say? That's great. But what does the research say? Final thing for me as a lateral in is I've been described as not To museum professional, that I'm just an administrator. And that's really interesting to me because there are so many other roles that exist within the sector, not all of us are curators, we can make a huge impact and difference to what's going on without having that mentor of a curator. So if you're not already done some cultural stuff, if you're an undergraduate in any other area on the zoologist here in the room, you can still find a pathway in the sector in the broadest terms. And then the final thing really just to echo is that I still volunteer. So often people think about volunteering as being a way in which you, you gain access to the sector. I sit on the UK wide accreditation committee, I sit on the Scotland recognition committee for designated and recognised collections. I'm a museum mentor, as well as doing freelance pro bono work. So it's just about thinking around your career holistically. And that's I suppose a message I will get across is that there are many permutations. That me,
Nicole Estwick
16:01
great, thank you so much, Tamsin. We're going to touch on volunteering. And hopefully this whole purpose of this event is giving people an honest picture of what's actually what's going on at the moment. So hopefully, we'll cover that off as well. And lastly, we're going to move on to Kate just to share her background.
Kate Danielson
16:17
Thank you, Nicole. Hello, everybody. I was going to say, lovely to see you all. But of course, we can't see you yet. But anyway, I've really enjoyed hearing the stories of my fellow panellists. And there's a lot here that relates to that, what I want to talk about, which is the Weston Jerwood creative bursaries, a programme that I've run for the last 10 years on behalf of the Weston Jerwood Arts who are a funder in the art sector, and we were given the money initially to set up the programme 10 years ago by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport that was looking for some research about why the art profession is so wide middle class and why it's so hard for people from a wider range of backgrounds to get in the issue of unpaid internships has always been a real issue was particularly back then in 2010. And so we have changed the programme and adapted over the years in order to provide fellowships for those from underrepresented backgrounds to get into fantastic jobs in the arts. And we are just into our fourth edition, and I put a link into the chat. For all the fellowships, which are currently on offer all over the country. They're in museums and galleries and theatres, and music venues and theatre. So huge places like the RSC and Liverpool Philharmonic, and the British Library, and they're all creating roles for people at the start of their careers. And all of the recruitment is done by the host organisations themselves, there are 50 of them up there. And it was interesting times and what you were saying about it is this mix, if you're going to create a change in our sector, it's this mix of individuals, organisational change and sector change, because we spent the first probably six, seven years of this programme focusing on the individuals that were starting their fellowships, you know, it was all about them, we would create these amazing pathways for them, and hey, presto, the sector would change. But of course, what we were doing was putting too much pressure on those people to make the change, you know, start in these organisations that perhaps weren't ready for them. And and have, you know, there were some not great experiences. So so in this edition of the programme, we're focusing a lot more on on on organisational change and working with the staff, and the board in particular, to make some change in the way that they recruit. And I think also the talk about transferable skills is so important. And, and so we're working with the host organisation so that they talk about skills as being they can be, you know, you could learn your skills in anything, it could be, as you say, Lucy in a chip shop, it could be, you know, looking after your grandmother, it could be there's, there is no reason why the skills you've gained in other areas of your life shouldn't be incredibly valuable in the arts.
19:51
And
19:53
evidence based as well. I mean, I think what we've always done in this programme is to work with academics and other sectors to work out what what is it? Why is this an issue? And what are the figures and this, this is a really important way of of. So it isn't just as you say about anecdote. And the way I got into it, I don't know. I don't know really, I, I had a very peripatetic childhood, spent a lot of time in America. And so when I graduated, I went, I had a degree in art history. And I went to America. And because of my English accent, I got this amazing job working in a theatre on Broadway. And it was just the accent. They just said they wanted an English person answering the telephone, I was in the right place at the right time. And then when I came back to England, I produced I'm, essentially, I'm a producer. And the last thing I did was, I ran the Jazz Festival in Cheltenham. And Joe would opt for one of our funders. And when I left the festival, Joe had asked if I would come and work with them on the programme. And so that's mainly what I do. And I and I work for other funders as well. And I also work in cultural sector in Gloucester, which is my neighbouring my neighbouring city. And my last thing, just to see is actually this whole lockdown. I have found zoom, and all this digital indirection. Really amazing, because I'm based in rural Gloucestershire. I, you know, in the past, I used to go to London quite regularly, but I missed out on lots of stuff. There's this thing called What's next? I don't know if you've come across that. But it's a great networking thing. I never need to go It was 830 on a, you know, Wednesday morning, I was never in London, the video on Wednesday morning. And it's all online now. And I can. So I'm really loving all of the networking opportunities, including ones like today that are possible in a way that wasn't before. Thank you.
Nicole Estwick
22:07
Brilliant. Thanks, everyone. It's really useful to hear from so many varied speakers. So hopefully, there will be something for all of our attendees to pick up on over the course of this session. Um, so in terms of moving on, I guess there's kind of, obviously this year has been a very interesting year. So probably, with everyone, there's been there's been a number of challenges this year. But obviously, the focus of this event is probably knowing about what is actually the picture within the museums and Arts and Cultural Heritage sectors at the moment. So I wonder if I can begin with maybe Tamsin and Susan as members kind of as your you're representing professional bodies, essentially, what are your members saying to you? So what are museums and heritage organisations saying to you in terms of what changes are going on in their in their areas and what recruitment might look like in the future? I'm not sure who wants to begin that between Tamsin and Susan. Yes, Tamsin fire away
Tamsin Russell
23:03
So I think
23:04
one of the conversations I've had is, it's still too soon to tell, though it's an emerging scene. So we're seeing seeing things change. And personally, there have been phases of development. So I had conversations, Susan was party to one of those conversations with a number of professional bodies and networks, around what their individual constituents have felt they had developed. So there, there was a raft of very quick responses, training and development and development to respond to often the shift to go digitally. there then was some more focus around learning new learning new ways of working, perhaps learning more around risk assessments, and health and safety requirements. And all of the changes as a result of being COVID secure. There was certainly a focus around how to ensure that both collections are safe at a distance, and that communities are getting engaged digitally, and increasingly, a need for better advocacy to influence funders and local governments around maintaining funding or being flexible in terms of delivery. Certainly a real focus at an individual level and individual resilience. And I don't mean that as a badge of honour, I do mean that as a skill set that can be developed and that resilience, skill set is a function of who I am, but also the duty of care of my organisation and not all organisations have stepped up to the plate, if truth be told, and certainly some organisations have contributed to that for lack of resilience in terms of how people have been supported. So first of all, in summary, there's been a raft of development opportunities for people to respond to that has been a learning situation for lots in a positive way that's hugely energising equally, there's been new skills that had to be learned that aren't as positive for Example, managing redundancy consultations, having difficult conversations with people. The excitement for me because I'm a half full person is that this will have created change. And change often relates to improvements. So what I'm also hearing is that individuals are thinking around what are those new skills, also, where perhaps there have been stylized working where you are either in learning, or you are in collections. As a result of this, there has been much greater need for collaboration, because people have been either furloughed or working from home. And there is a much stronger dialogue and connection making between the different strands, which I think can only be a positive thing, because that means we can work more effectively with our collections and communities from a recruitment perspective, and I will just hold down a job recruitment and selection is my area of specialty that and change management so I could bore you at length about good rnf practice, I suppose my concern is that we will default to using blunt measures for shortlisting as a time saving device, and also as a way of managing the significant number of people that will be interested in an ever decreasing number of jobs. And I know that sounds really sorry, I always felt like I'm the bearer of bad news in these sort of situations. But I think the reality is that the sector is shrinking, and will continue to do so. What does that mean for recruitment? I think it could be really positive. But my concern is that we sort of go back to more traditional models of agreement that aren't as supportive. I'm going to stop talking, because I could talk forever.
Susan Bradshaw
26:40
Thanks, Tamsin. I'd like to follow up on some of those, I think, yes, innovation opportunities are sort of way to help the sector evolve. And digital skills is definitely one of those that has come out of actually, we actually didn't carry out a survey. So I've actually got some evidence in relation to the fact that now how can people sort of use those digital skills to great effect, how they can research advanced to advanced technology and heritage science, because the thing with conservation, it's not just sort of hand skills, it's actually the whole raft of skills that are required to become a conservator or to work in conservation. So it could be material science, it could be sort of contemporary art, for example, the digital eyes ation of, of all of that sort of work, how to archive and conserve. It's time based media. They're all sort of sort of new things that we're grasping with anyway. And then these are things that are going to continue to grow as part of the new archives and the new new collections that will be made. But in terms of sort of feedback that we gained from the survey that we carried out in the summer, and we're actually going to do a follow up to it in at the end of this month. But yes, it says a bleak picture out there. 26th response percent of our respondents said that they've been furloughed, so there's quite a high percentage there of those people. 70% of them said that their monthly income had decreased. Because you have to remember that in conservation, we have actually a third of our workforce are actually in private practice. So they're not necessarily so they're relying on commissions from museums and galleries and libraries and private owners and clients across the board to actually commissioned them to do that work. So obviously, they're sort of resources are being reduced. And that has an impact in itself. What we have been sort of saying is that, yes, again, different ways of working, there's times and mentioned sort of getting people to get used to adapting to working from home, working in the sort of using remote software, it lends itself more to others than than it does to some some, for example, actually, I've been working from home since 1997. So it's been quite a sort of a thing for me to do. And it's been quite interesting to watch my colleagues actually adapting to that environment. And I actually had to adapt as well, because your skill set changes as you adapt to the way that you're communicating. And I totally agree that sort of the fact that I'm actually based in Devon and my colleagues are in London, and I'm not spending so much time going up and down the railway line. I'm sure Tamsin will sort of back over from Edinburgh.
30:01
But you sort of now have opportunities to actually communicate far easier in some ways. And I think that's actually getting into the recognition of the system of people who are working in it. What we've also experienced is that there has been an enormous demand for digital access to collections. And that is something that will probably be of more demand digitization of projects so that the public can actually access them as and when they want to in their field. So that's sort of the immediate impact. And in terms of longer, longer term impact, we're basically, yes, it's likely that there are potential closures of conservation practices, and redundancies or conservation staff. So what we're doing or icon is doing at the moment is we're actually lobbying governments to ensure that the specialist skills survive, because once they've gone, they've gone and no students are the future of of those skills. We need to embrace that and keep those going hand skills, science materials, skills, etc. Prevent preventive conservation as well. So we've also been exploring a kicked Scott's the kickstart scheme, which I don't know we might cover that later on. But we reckon that there will be significant shifts in the profession and looking across the board, the wider the wider remit of the conservator is not necessarily as blinkered as it has been in the past. So that's probably as much as…
Nicole Estwick
31:48
Great, thank you for sharing that, Susan and, Tamsin, I think, obviously, we're all aware that particularly this sector has been really hard hit by current circumstances. And although it's a bit of a grim picture here, I think the fact that you've done a survey, Susan, and you have that in with professionals working within the industry, hopefully gives some students just some real insights in terms of what's going on. And I will say, though, that there are opportunities out there, they obviously obviously more competitive though, because you're more people applying to fewer places. So I guess I'm in terms of kind of what students can be doing at the moment. And maybe if I begin with you, Dhikshana, as you're kind of getting the kind of practice of learning and education in your new role in Somerset House, and skills and engagement, sorry. So I wondered if you can give any tips in terms of what students can actually do if they're applying for a museum job or a culture job that is very competitive at the moment? What might would make the application stand out? Your opinion? Thanks.
Dhikshana Turakhia Pering
32:46
I think the fact that things have gone digital, there's more online. So our creative careers programme was a series of networking and kind of learning about the wider creative and cultural sector by coming to Somerset House and engaging with with those artists and creatives. But we've taken that programme online completely in our next sessions, actually, on Thursday, and I'll put it in the chat afterwards. There's lots of organisations that have, they didn't first it might not have been straightaway, but they've now worked out how they can take things on digitally. And in the future, hopefully do it in real life and digitally. So I would go there on Google, like have a look at the industries you want. See what online training there is, lots of it can be free. So you can speak to, for me early on I got on social media, and I used Twitter a lot like you can directly follow the organisation you want to work, but you can directly follow people that work for that organisation and know what they're doing and how they're doing it and even get into a conversation with them, you know, so there's ways to still kind of get that rounded picture in your head about what's happening in the sector, what's going on. There's their sector bodies, like the museums division and others that, yes, you need to be members of but there's also their website that can give you that contact, and you can see if it's the right membership organisation for you. And I found that really useful early on in my career, to signing up as a student member of the museums Association. And I learned, I was definitely going down the path of learning and engagement. And at the time, there was probably more of a divide between those and it's definitely coming together how Tamsin is saying, but it definitely gave me a wider context and a wider understanding. So when I was applying for jobs, I wasn't just talking about this is what I do for my schools programme. It was a wider context of what I was saying. And I think, yeah, I just think like, where we were at home while we're online more, but we're not always on on the online things that we want to be on. Sometimes you're sitting on that zoom call and that mass all staff meeting that we have every Tuesday, and I know that like you maybe if you're on if you're doing that, if you have that time, just using that to kind of just see what's out there and see who's who's out there. And definitely think about what was Lucy said about your skills like that you've got outside of it. I definitely hired retail. I think we all have retail at some point. But that made me really good at customer service. And I know that my first job while it was about engaging an audience in an interactive gallery, fundamentally, I didn't need a master's degree to do that. I didn't need Like, what I was using was my basic good communication skills of talking to lots of different people to engage them on something. And so yeah, I think spend that time looking at your, your CV, you know, have a look on. There's lots of job sites out there, like less than museums jobs is fantastic. It collates museum jobs from around the world, like have a look at them. Look at the jadis look at what they're asking for go, Oh, yeah, brilliant. I can do all of that, Oh, I can't do that. And then try and see if you can work out how you get that skill. And it doesn't have to be, you know, directly doing that thing. It might be around about way that you go about it. And then yeah, I think you know, hopefully, lockdowns will come to an end and buildings or reopen and just try and get to the ones you want to, to work in and something that's gonna pick on something that both Susan and Townsend said, I think there's two questions that will come out in the years to come and they shouldn't just come from the organisation. It should come from anyone, any organisation you want to work at work with. You should be asking how they looked after their staff during Coronavirus, and how they responded to Black Lives Matters. So get on people's websites have a look at what their commitments are, and see if they are an organisation you want to work for. Because I think that's more it's always been important, but it's more important than ever, and townsends. Right? Not every organisation got it, right. Maybe they made a mistake, but some of them very consciously chose to not do it the right way. So I think that's use this time to find that and kind of narrow down and it will make it easier when when jobs do come up. And I did read somewhere, I'm probably to quote this otherwise, it's fake news. But I can't remember I read, I did read that things are starting in all sectors, it's people at the vaccine, the vaccine update is leading to people that think, okay, there, things are gonna not go back to normal straightaway. But we can start thinking ahead planning ahead, we've definitely started doing it at work for the first time we had a looking at three years ahead meeting, it was brilliant to not be looking at their head, I'm going to be honest. And so I think, you know, get yourself ready. So when those jobs come up, you're kind of ready to kind of pounce on them, I guess. Sorry, that was a very roundabout way of going about that. But I hope that answered your question
Nicole Estwick
37:00
No, no, thank you so much for sharing that. And I've got a lot of additional things, we're going to touch on diversity in a little bit. But I'm Lucy, if I can maybe move to you. Because I think what Dhikshana was saying there, it links really nicely to fair museum jobs, which is an organisation that you're involved with. And they're really responsible for kind of promoting or advocating for fair practices within the sector. And at a time where maybe kind of full time paid opportunities might not be available. A lot of students may be looking to things like volunteering or unpaid work. So what tips would you give to students in terms of things to look out for, or how to protect themselves in terms of taking on voluntary work to get their foot in the ball in to the set.
Lucy Moore
37:45
And so first of all, I'd say, Don't sell yourself short. If you can be paid for it, get paid for it. And this sector has existed on the unpaid labour of people, for so long, that make sure your volunteering is a choice, and that you have like active agency in what you're doing. Like, don't just choose to do something because you feel like you need it on your CV. And like, really don't, it has to be fun, it has to be meaningful. And so please, you know, be mindful and saying that, I think there will be a lot of different opportunities coming up. There are lots of different digital opportunities, as people have said before, but I think it also depends on the kind of organisations that there are. So lots of local authorities, so you counsel run museums and so on, they're having cuts left, right and centre. So there aren't necessarily people to run volunteering programmes, and which doesn't mean they don't want to, it just means there's no capacity. And so but so if you're in like an area where you just have your kind of your your council museums, don't think, oh, there's nothing, you know, you can start to think quite actively about what can I do as an individual. So like, it maybe sounds a bit trite, but I always recommend to people like set up like an Instagram of like museums I like or objects, I think a call off the internet. Because it's something that you can then go and say, Oh, well, you know, I was stuck at home for ages. And I did some digital volunteering, but actually I had to do loads of carrying and all these other things. But I've got this lovely list of you know, I don't know mediaeval bookmarks that you're into, like whatever it is, just so that you can share a bit of like enthusiasm and curiosity. And you can do it on your terms too. And so that's kind of one thing that I would I would recommend. And yeah, that's probably my top tip for now.
Nicole Estwick
39:54
Great, thank you. That's really useful. I think it is about thinking creatively. Absolutely. And outside the box in terms of what you can do. Whether it's through building a portfolio or just doing something else, and it still counts as work experience, it's still something you can put on your CV. So that's really good advice there. If I move now to k, and because obviously, your role within jerwood Arts is quite focused on supporting people from lower socio economic backgrounds in terms of getting in the art, I wondered, is there any kind of challenges that were unique to this group at this moment in time in terms of getting their foot in the door into the industry?
Kate Danielson
40:31
Do you mean specifically at the moment or just…
Nicole Estwick
40:34
Specifically at the moment, and also more generally, as well?
Kate Danielson
40:38
Yeah, well, I think the evaluations have shown that a lot of our fellows, the people that have been through the programme we call fellows, they've been through a one year role with the organisation. And then they take part in, in a professional development programme that we run as a programme across all 50 of them. So we bring them all together, as well as working in their roles. And we've yet to meet this, the new cohort that are currently being recruited, but in the past, and we've kept in touch with our fellows from before, so we know how they're coping at the moment. I mean, they were, you know, they are those at the start of the careers, we know, those are the people that have suffered the most. with, you know, through the COVID pandemic, they've been the first, you know, to lose their jobs, there are a lot of them on our on zero hours contracts. And they have very little support, a lot of them are freelancers that a lot of our fellows have gone on to have, what were successful freelance careers before. And so they are we know that a lot of them are struggling. Again, actually, Lucy, your thing about Twitter, I think is really important. I mean, they are brilliant at sharing their experience is on Twitter, which I think is a great way of it's not a woe is me, it is, this is the situation for somebody in my position, I don't have any home security, I don't, you know, don't own I don't have to pay for my rent every month, I don't have job security, I don't necessarily have a family I can go home to. And so they are, you know, most the most vulnerable amongst the most vulnerable. And because a lot of our fellows because the intersection, sexual nature of low socio economic also means there's a, you know, a lot of intersection with other protected characteristics. And, and we know those have a multiplying effect on people's experiences. And so we've worked a lot with our organised organisations in this edition, to think about how these job adverts will land with people who are in these situations, you know, they are presumed they are probably considering leaving the arts or giving up on their dream, or they're feeling it's now or never to get that foot in the door. In the arts, I've been working in retail, or wherever else, and this is my chance, this is my stab at it. So I think it said the jobs, the job packs show, there's quite a lot of, you know, support for relocation, their support for people to present their applications in different formats. There's a real focus on simplifying the job application process, and providing unique zoom open sessions during recruitment. So people can check to two out the people they will be working with. So I think what else might be useful? I think the other thing is understanding your context. I mean, it is it's a very hard thing for people to talk about their background, I think there is no socio economic background has always been a very difficult area to measure and to talk about and, and the way that the hosts are recruiting in this edition is is to is to ask people to reflect on the barriers that they faced. And I think that can be really hard for some people. But what we're trying to do is to get organisations when they recruit to think about the context in which applicants are from and, and, and, and so what you've achieved your your academic or your Or whatever has to be taken in the context of your background to be relevant and to show who really is the best candidate for your organisation.
Nicole Estwick
45:11
Right. Thank you so much for that, Kate. That was really insightful to hear. And we'll we'll move on shortly. I'm just conscious of time. So I know some questions had been sent through. So we move on to that shortly. And just a couple more questions I wanted to ask and moving on now to obviously, COVID aside, another big part of recruitment and reflection that people have had to do on recruitment in recent months is around diversity and inclusion. And I know it's been brought up a little bit during the course of this discussion. I just wondered what you think it lies ahead, essentially, in the sector, for recruiting maybe a more diverse workforce? What How do you see that kind of happening in the next few months ahead? Or a few years ahead? I know, Dikshana, you mentioned this quite a lot. So I'll begin with you maybe?
Dhikshana Turakhia Pering
45:56
Yeah, I think it's a news thing. I think that there's the sector has tried for a while it just hasn't had the successes that it should have had. I think there was lots of things that were being tried to grow into to have fair recruitment. I'm not saying that has happened. And I'm sure Lucy can give you statistics show you that, that it has not been I think that this year, and I think the impact of unemployment rising, especially among young people, and the impact of George Floyd's murder and Black Lives Matters and that commitment, a lot of anti-racism pledge commitments, there's a even stronger, and yes, it's around race, racism, that commitment of diversity inclusion is there. But it's also looking beyond that too I think it will push it further and quicker. But what you're going to have to parallel that is a freeze and recruitment at the same time. So you're not going to see the real impacts of change for some time. But hopefully, this pause in a way is a positive thing. I could speak personally for Somerset House, we're using that time to look at all of our recruitment, all of our practices, we aren't perfect in how we're doing. One of the things we did is we put jobs out without salaries on them, that is not diversity inclusivity. And so Lacey spacer definitely does not make it diametrically excuse inclusive, but what we are doing is also acknowledging a lack of expertise within our organisation and needing the need to bring in consultants to support us to do that. So something we want to do is create benchmarks. Now, there are people that will think that benchmarks are good, and people that will think they are bad, but we feel like it will, it will hold us to account to try and achieve that change. And not that once we hit that target, that's it, that's the end of it. But we don't have any black people in senior leadership, I'm the only person of colour on my senior leadership, our trustees, out of 13 of them, we have two black trustees. So there's definitely so much that we need to do. at every level of our organisation, even our staff below senior management, there is some diversity, but not if you did, we don't actually have the data. So one of the issues we have is equality and monitoring forms are optional. And people feel that they're filling them in for statistical reasons, rather than whatever, whatever reason they're being asked to doing it. But we're trying to work out how we can actually get people to fill those forms in so that we can then know the truth of the makeup of our workforce so that we can truly set benchmarks. And then and move forward from there. And this pause I think will help. Help organisations have that this pause in in recruitment, and hopefully in the next year, it will pick up and we'll be ready once we are recruiting to put out job adverts that are inclusive, that are diverse, I think applications will change. Even recruiting for young producers, we change how we it was expressions of interest, it was optional, sending in videos rather than filling in, I'm dyslexic, I would have loved to have not had to fill in applications in the last 14 years in my career takes a lot of time for anyone. But if you're dyslexic, it takes 10 times longer as well. So I definitely think this idea of changing how people can can apply is going to it's going to come in and more full force you in places like The Wellcome Collection that have been doing it for a while and have been doing it well. And I think others will will look to them as well. So hopefully that kind of touches upon it.
Nicole Estwick
48:56
No doubt, thank you so much for that. I totally agree. And I think it's important to kind of bear in mind that these things do take time, unfortunately. And I think there's been a period of reflection over the last few months and then now hopefully moving forward getting putting that into practice and looking at what other organisations are doing and and taking learnings from that and implementing that into your own organisation. So thank you for sharing that. As I said, I am mindful of time so I'm going to kind of wrap up a little bit with with my questions, and just essentially to share. Obviously, I know that we've kind of mostly seen in the news that the government culture secretary has obviously given some funding to organisations and museums, arts and heritage organisations. Obviously not everyone has been eligible for that. But with that in mind, what would you say? What do you think kind of lies ahead? For for the sector, really, in terms of do we think that the funding funding is kind of needed in terms of boosting the recruitment prospects or what kind of general thoughts do you have about what lies ahead? In terms of boost from funding or other things that you've got coming up in the pipeline that may make the recruitment picture a little bit more positive?
Tamsin Russell
50:11
I'll just very briefly so we're not an employer. So we're a very small organisation, but we do so there's, there's 20 FTE. So you know, I would love to say there are lots of other people working in the department and we would have loads of vacancies. that's never been a reality for us. And there's less so at the moment in the current economic climate, we don't get any government funding. So please join me there Association 20% offers new members please join. But I think there is something around just capitalising on all those opportunities for professional development for connection making for CV building, and making yourself ready. There are other opportunities within the sector and the kickstart scheme is one that I know that many museums are, are focusing on. That's a very specific group of people that that that that particular scheme is open to so 16 to 24 year olds, either as a recipient of Universal Credit or at risk of long term unemployment. So it's not necessarily an opportunity for everybody. But I also know that organisations are moving far more clearly towards apprenticeships, as part of an opportunity to join and and to learn on the job. So whilst you may think I'm old times and I've got an undergraduate, I've got a postgraduate or I will do hopefully, why would I think about being an apprentice? I think we need to reframe that apprentices as they exist in the 21st century, are not a young person's training scheme that would have been back in the day when I first but let's go, it is about saying to work in the museum sector or any sector, there are particular dedicated professional skills you need to develop. Being an apprentice enables you to do that brand get paid. So when we talked about unpaid internships or ridiculous amounts of volunteer, we to gather that skill set, what I would say is don't overlook those apprenticeship opportunities, because that really is a really good way of taking your theoretical knowledge, your critical analysis of being an academic person who's gone to university, and then get that practical experience in a variety of organisations and there are apprenticeships, for the conserve conservation, for technicians, for learning, for curators, for registrar's, there's quite a few of them out there. So just don't overlook those opportunities for apprenticeships would be my big call to arms.
Susan Bradshaw
52:38
Yeah, I think the thing the thing with apprenticeships, though, is the bit slow off the ground. So there's not a huge amount of them being promoted at the moment. And they tend to be sort of for the, for the lower grades. But there is, like Thompson says in conservation, there's a level seven, which is actually running alongside a masters. So if you've got a sort of a bachelor's degree, you can know that you can utilise that. Or if you haven't even got a master's in conservation, you can still actually look to it. So as long as it's not related to what you've got. So far, an apprenticeship is eligible, you are eligible to look at that. And following off what was been said before about sort of looking at sort of what to do and preparing for that. Yeah, investigates the areas that you're really interested in, showing a passion for that. And really, sort of building evidence that's across the board and thinking outside the box.
Lucy Moore
53:43
Can I just add it, I'd also just like to say it's okay, to kind of think I'd love to work in museums and heritage, but I can't face it right now. Go into another job. Come back to us. You know, I worked as a care assistant for years, because it was not. So I couldn't find a job. And I got amazing skills. And then I came back and I was all the better for it. so please don't feel too demoralised by by what what the situation can be like. But also please don't give up hope. If that's what you're thinking. And you don't you don't have to be be the museum person right now. museums are gonna be here for a while.
Nicole Estwick
54:31
Thank you, Lucy, but I think you Kate. I think you want to mention just something briefly.
Kate Danielson
54:35
Yeah just by briefly. It's fairly basic math, three growth areas, I think across the cultural sector. I've been reviewing applications from organisations for another funder and, and digital is, of course, an extremely huge growth industry at the moment. So I think developing your digital skills, your ability to communicate very strongly online, is something I think is a really important skill. I think fundraising, of course, is always a really important skill, and is invaluable, and every organisation is going to need them. And the third one, which I've just forgotten, but work, Oh, yes. And also skills and engaging with a, you know, wide community is, you know, your own community, your ability to talk to a wide audience Orleans's, I think if you can, if you can show that as a skill that you have, or something that you've developed, I think that those three are really important skills. For organisations, I think we'll be looking, Can
Susan Bradshaw
55:49
I just add, we've actually been surveyed are some employers recently, and four of the top skills that came out of our problem solving, sort of being creative thinkers, and resourceful actually having good hand skills, if that's the area of conservation that you want to be in a team player. So as sort of very much as sort of a generic skill and communication thing being the the other one. So those there, there are all sorts of things that you can glean from every sort of opportunity. Doesn't have to be directly as Lucy saying straight into the sector.
Nicole Estwick
56:32
Thank you and sorry Dhikshana, I'm just going to go into student questions now. Sorry,
Dhikshana Turakhia Pering
56:36
that's come up another way that
Nicole Estwick
56:38
we can discuss this at length. And there's so many good bits of information that's coming through, but we can see that I've got quite a few questions. So and we also got about half an hour for networking. So they're running slightly over. So I'll just kind of throw out some questions briefly that we've had through. This one's had quite a lot of likes. And so I'm gonna see maybe one of you can just answer each question someone's asked for, can the penalty speak about the current landscape with regards to work? Visa sponsorship in the sector. So we have a lot of international students obviously, at UCL, there's some of them who have just finished their master's degree, and aren't eligible for visas. And obviously, they require visa sponsorship. So there's one person want to share briefly an overview of the landscape in terms of that, Tamsin I can see your hand up, so I'll throw that to you.
Tamsin Russell
57:28
The news is not good. So since 2010, the requirements for cultural heritage as being one of those sectors, where we could look for sponsorship was removed as a function of the Cameron government. That's not gone back, though, we still very much in like, certainly with policy around hostile environments, it is highly unlikely, if not near impossible, that an organisation would look to sponsor anybody because we have an excess of talent already within the UK, and nevermind Europe as a whole. So the business argument around sponsorship of individuals that don't currently have the right to work in the UK, isn't there. So it is highly, highly, highly unlikely that an organisation would do that, certainly at an entry level post.
Nicole Estwick
58:18
I thank you for sharing that type of thing. I know that's not necessarily good news to hear. But I think it's important that you give the honest picture of what's coming through. Another question now, and I might throw this to Susan, maybe, or just kind of scroll down. Is it a must have to have a degree in either curator ship or conservation? And if so, at what level? Do you need to have a PhD, for example, or an MA to work in conservation? Who's
Susan Bradshaw
58:44
Well, in conservation, like I can't cover curatorship, necessarily, but conservation is we have our professional accreditation programme, which basically, is a set of standards that people work towards. So we don't actually say that you have to have a particular qualification in conservation, in order to do that. It. So the professional accreditation for conservators is around how they have reached the particular professional level at the time that they apply for accreditation. And that that means that there are lots of different routes into the profession. So they could actually, yeah, sort of a curator starts off with weight, you know, and move into conservation. It could be the other way around. But it is a case of measuring themselves against professional standards. And if they go on to the icon website, I would suggest that that if they are interested in working in conservation, those standards are sort of key for them to get an interest in that. Great, thank
Nicole Estwick
59:53
you so much for that, Susan.
59:55
And
59:56
another question here has said what types of positions are Looking more secure, I think we've kind of discussed that around maybe the digital kind of skills or digital roles are looking particularly important. So it's a follow up on that. I think someone else has asked the question. Let me just find it now may have disappeared. Oh, so to say. Could you explain expand slightly on what sorts of digital skills are most in demand? So because one of you want to take that question on,
1:00:24
as a digital skill, go ahead Dhiksana.
Dhiksana Tarakhia Pering
1:00:30
And I think it's a mixture of the ability to engage audiences digitally. So thinking about how if you would do something in real life, how you would convert it to digital, but also have a way to do it in real life later. So the way we're thinking going ahead is, instead of just thinking I'll just stream it and put it online. We're thinking, how do you make the engagement exciting? And what what are those skills that we use in humans human contact and transfer them to a digital platform? I think social media, I think there's gonna be more things around podcasts, more things around videos. So at Somerset House, we ran an internal training programme to upskill our staff across each department so that each department had people that were trained in audio editing, video editing, so that we didn't just go to the digital team every time we produce something. And I think that's going to be more and more asked for I don't think we're completely set up in how we train and learn in each of our respective specialisms. So that is going to change I think, over the years, and even I'm sure university courses and, and other things will have to respond to that. Because it's not that in the same way that learning and engagement should not just sit in a team. Digital skill should not just sit in a team, it needs to go across an organisation. So everyone from the beginning is thinking about how they would deliver whatever they need to deliver in their role, but also make it work digitally. I think there's a whole load of training around teams and zoom and those day to day operations of how we work as organisations. I think we responded quickly. I mean, I don't think I use teams effectively. I'm sure I go and round about ways to do things. So I think there's lots of things like that, that, you know, reading about that even just getting your head into that would help help you to kind of get that ready for when you are applying for jobs. Great, thank
Nicole Estwick
1:02:06
you so much. We do still have some questions coming through, but the ones I'm seeing are quite specific. So and I'm conscious of time, as I've just said. So I think we'll we'll wrap the discussion there. And thank you again to our panellists for joining. It's just been a really insightful discussion and that we could have put on by ages majors but apologies that time is quite limited. Thank you all
Jo Budd
1:02:25
so much for listening to today's episode. We hope the discussions around transferable skills, thinking creatively about your job search strategy and the growing importance of digital within the sector has offered you some food for thought, as well as some action points to take away with you. Remember, if these conversations do spark some inspiration and you'd like to have a career discussion with a consultant, you can book a short guidance appointment through your my UCL careers account. We're always happy to hear from you