EDI Chronicles at Brain Sciences- EP 2: Is Athena SWAN still necessary?

Beverley Isibor  0:09 

Beverley, hello and welcome to the EDI Chronicles at brain sciences podcast. I'm your host. Beverley Isibor, the equality, diversity and inclusion coordinator at the Faculty of brain sciences. In this podcast, we sit down with an expert to learn about all the wonderful and impactful things happening in brain sciences, as well as higher education, more widely, in the equality, diversity and inclusion space, or you can say it as EDI space, so whether it's learning, working or researching. This podcast is dedicated for academics, professional staff, researchers and any curious people willing to learn about embedding EDI in their practice. In today's episode, we will discuss whether Athena SWAN is necessary in 2024 how it compares to other equality charters and what different awards means for different institutions and departments. I'm joined here with Professor Sara mole. Sara is a professor at UCL and also the UCL envoy for gender equality. Since 2018 Sara has used the Athena SWAN charter to further gender equality at a UCL department, which was awarded the first silver in 2009 and the first gold in 2016 also, Sara is the chair of the Athena SWAN governance committee, so there's plenty of expertise going on in the room. So welcome Sara.

Sara Mole  1:39 

Thanks, Beverley,

Beverley Isibor  1:40 

tell us a bit about yourself. I mentioned that you're a professor in a particular department. Which department is it?

Sara Mole  1:47 

Yeah. So I'm actually Professor of Molecular Cell Biology, and I'm in the Institute of Child Health now, but I started my Athena SWAN journey in the UCL MRC Laboratory for Molecular Cell Biology.

Beverley Isibor  2:00 

Oh, amazing. So now let's dive into the topic straight away. You may have noticed that, you know, for our listeners, there are loads of Athena SWAN logos plastered across websites, promotional materials. But what is, exactly, is Athena SWAN? Yeah,

Sara Mole  2:18 

so Athena SWAN is a framework. It's run by a company, an organization called advance. He advanced higher education and and they work for and on behalf of UK higher education institutes and research institutes. They do lots of things to improve higher education, and one of the things they do is to improve equalities. So Athena SWAN is a framework that's used to improve gender equality.

Beverley Isibor  2:43 

Okay? And when did it actually start at UCL? So

Sara Mole  2:47 

UCL was part of the founding of Athena SWAN, way back in 2005 so sort of setting up a charter and signing it so long time ago now, nearly

20 years I hope they're going to mark the anniversary.

Unknown Speaker  3:00 

Sure they will, surely will. Okay? Thank

Beverley Isibor  3:03 

you for that. So there are different kinds of awards within a Athena SWAN I know there's like, bronze, silver and gold. Could you briefly explain what they are and like, what they mean? Yeah. So,

Sara Mole  3:14 

so I guess briefly, bronze is sort of starting out so a department or an institute as a whole wants to improve their gender equality and do some work to address that. And so the first thing they need to do is sort of look at their data, find out what people are thinking, see what's happening, and then sort of devise a kind of action plan, a set of actions, to improve the problems, the challenges that they see. And so bronze is really the first starting point. You've done your assessment, you write it up, you have your action plan, sets you, sets the work out for the next five years. So that's, that's a bronze award, really. And you may, of course, already have done some good work to start with, but bronze is, is generally your first application. The next one, silver is where you've done some work. You've had actions that have made a difference. You can measure that, you can see that, and that sort of gives you silver. Basically, you've done something, and it's improved things. Okay? And then gold is where, oh, and of course, you have another action plan to keep yourself going. You've learned. And then gold is sort of an extension of the journey. So by now you really know what you're doing, you have had some impact that's been sustained. The changes have been sustained. So it's starting to become embedded. So that sort of allows you to qualify, as it were, for a gold level. But gold also is about learning from what you've done, realizing that the things that have worked for you and actually sharing that practice, that good practice, with others. Now it might be something that's if you're a department, it might be something that's specific for your department or your discipline, or your you know, the area that you work in, or it might be quite a general thing that would work for everybody. So you want to sort of share that good practice and allow others to sort of. Learn from that and start to use it wherever they are.

Beverley Isibor  5:03 

That's good. So as long as it's shared, that's the most important thing.

Sara Mole  5:07 

That sort of elevates you to that kind of gold level, not keeping it to yourself, but wanting to share what you've done. So it's basically

Beverley Isibor  5:13 

everything that you've done in bronze and silver, but mostly in silver, yeah. And then just that little cherry on the top is how you've, you know, managed to push that out to others that ran from you. Yeah, and usually

Sara Mole  5:26 

by that time, you're incredibly enthusiastic. So it's never a problem sharing exactly because, you know, it works, and you've seen a difference, and you can see that it's changed where you work. So you're really happy to share. Yes,

Beverley Isibor  5:36 

okay, so obviously, this is a brain sciences podcast, and brain science is actually very involved with Athena SWAN. We have all our departments have awards ranging from bronze to silver. But I'm also curious to know how many departments across UCL are also involved in Athena SWAN, and how many awards exist in

Sara Mole  5:57 

Yeah, so most departments are involved in Athena SWAN now, not, not all, and we hold 50 awards. Oh, wow. So, yeah, we done really well. We've got 25 bronze, we've got 25 silver, and we've got five golds, amazing, which is amazing. There are only 25 golds in the UK, so we've got a fifth of those. So that shows the level of, you know, involvement with EDI through Athena SWAN addressing gender equality at UCL.

Beverley Isibor  6:22 

Amazing. So that brings us to the body of this conversation. Is Athena SWAN still necessary? Clearly, UCL was very heavily involved. But there's when we're looking at it more widely, and when I say widely, I mean, let's say the UK Government, for example, in 2020 said that universities do not need to comply with voluntary schemes such as Athena SWAN and the race equality charter, if you're familiar with that to get grants and funding. UCL partners, such as the National Institute for Health Research, has also said that the grant applicants, although they need to demonstrate that there is commitment to tackling disadvantaged groups and discrimination, they will no longer be holding Athena SWAN silver as a requirement to receive an infrastructure grant. So in this context, do you think that goals of Athena SWAN are still relevant? Yeah,

Sara Mole  7:25 

so I think they're not saying don't do gender equality or don't do any kind of equality work. I think what they wanted to do was to relieve the burden of doing something in order for you to get a grant. So which is, I guess, is fair enough. So, so from that respect. Certainly, if you're a higher education in England, to my knowledge, anyway, you don't have to have, you know, any proof in terms of an award for your gender, for your equality work, yeah. However, that's slightly different in Wales, and could be different in Scotland. But if we're talking about UCL, nothing that we have to do. However, if you are applying for European Union grants, they certainly need evidence of a gender equality action plan. Okay, so not just that you're saying you're doing the work, but they need to see something written down, and Athena SWAN satisfies that. That's generally institutional level, though. Okay, so you don't have to. But on the other hand, if you're going to do some gender equality work anyway, why not, then, why not, at least be recognized for what you're doing and show that you've, you know, made a difference, that someone else, externally, independently, is acknowledging and seeing what you've done. Yes,

Beverley Isibor  8:34 

okay, that makes sense. So a lot of the time we're just going back to that point, you know, the excuse sometimes that is given by departments or institutions that participate or, you know, have some curiosity about Athena SWAN, they would say that it's too bureaucratic, if it's for smaller departments, for instance, they would probably say that, you know, we can't handle it's not the capacity that Athena SWAN involves. So what would you say to those institutions and departments if they're in Yeah, so

Sara Mole  9:09 

I'm really sympathetic to sort of the extra workload required, sort of for doing an application. So I guess there's two things. One is, you don't have to apply for an award. You can still do the work, and you can do it without spending some time in the application. The other thing I would say is, for those that are, I don't whether we'll sort of talk about the history, but there was the original Athena SWAN, which was set up for science departments, which is why the science departments at UCL have been long engaged with Athena SWAN. And I guess because it was also very obvious there was a gender difference in terms of, you know, students, and then in terms of staff and progression and promotion and all that. So

Beverley Isibor  9:44 

wait, just to clarify, and now it involves any kind of, yeah, so

Sara Mole  9:49 

now any discipline, yeah, okay. And they will be bringing in also operational areas, so any part of UCL, oh, in the future. But okay, but let's not too excited. About it. So, so, yeah, what was I saying? So, first of all, there was the original one, yeah. And then in response to that, you know, and this is, you know, universities learning what's needed, it was sort of recognized that probably you needed to be gathering some data on this bit and that bit and whatever. And so the, sort of, the 2015 version of Athena SWAN required you to have that data and to analyze it, to think about it, and then to say, Okay, where are we in our gender and what are our action plans? So that was sort of the the onerous bit. And you know, it can be really difficult sometimes getting data together, and sometimes that's the real headache, having that once you've got the data, it's maybe not so bad. However, back in I think it's 2020 they started the sort of the next version of Athena SWAN, which is now is called the transformed charter. And the data requirement is much less onerous, and there's lots more freedom in that. And maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that. So a department that maybe between 2015 to 2020 thought, oh, I don't know, it might just be a bit too much for us. They really should look again now and think, actually, maybe what we want to do now we can do and we can be recognized. You don't get that award for doing it as well,

Beverley Isibor  11:11 

of course, because I think just based on my familiarity of Athena SWAN, I've definitely seen, just based on conversations and you know, departments that have are going through transform the Phoenix. One is that it's a bit more subtle now. It's like only focused on priorities, which, although that was the case before, but there was numerous amounts of actions that people needed to, you know, fulfill, even if there was nothing happening. And what I like about the transform the Athena SWAN is like it really just gives you a focus point and it makes you prioritize again, likely, yeah,

what you need to Yeah.

Sara Mole  11:51 

I mean, you can do as many actions as you want, but really the emphasis now is what, what are your priority areas on, what you know, what are the where? What are the things that you really want to see changes in and just and focus on those so no longer pages and pages factions focus

Speaker 1  12:05 

on any small departments that are thinking, is the workload going to be the same? Yes, it still has that same attention that you need when you're doing a normal Athena SWAN. But the beauty of this is that it really trickles down to your department, and not necessarily things that may not apply to you, that you have to do,

Sara Mole  12:27 

yeah, yeah. And there's, there's so much more freedom. You know, Athena SWAN is about gender, so you're looking at anything through a gender lens. But if you're, you know, if your department has a real problem with, you know, percentage of disabled students or stuff in it, and you're really concerned about that and want to improve that, then you can work on that, looking through the gender lens. So, you know, you can really and race and you know, whatever it is you want that is, you know, your department's need you can address. Because, you know, I hope all departments at UCL, all faculties at UCL, have got an EDI committee, or they're doing their EDI work, and this should just slot into the work they're doing anyway,

Beverley Isibor  13:03  

exactly. And I will take brain sciences as an example. A lot of things that are done more EDI based have a lot of the time been driven from Athena SWAN actions. And I think this is the beauty of data, where, if you look at the data, well, it can tell you a different story to the story that you initially thought that you wanted. Data is beautiful. Basically, when it comes to Athena SWAN, it can be tedious to get, but it can also reveal a lot. And if you go with the intention, and I believe Athena SWAN really promotes, you know, looking at things through an intersectional lens, where go with the intention of trying to identify more things that possibly need addressing. Yeah, that's, I guess that's what the beauty of Athena SWAN kind of

Sara Mole  13:55 

totally agree. And you know, we are scientists as well. So yeah, love data, but you know, you can get data in all sorts of forms, but that data, the data tells you, doesn't it? You know, whatever your perception is, look at the data and see what it's telling you. And you know, I've learned from, you know, my own sort of involvement in this. And I guess being more sophisticated or more getting more in depth understanding, you can really pull out an awful lot of things from the data when once you start realizing what are all the conflicting things that might be affecting, you know, your equality data, or, you know, basically the date, the data in your department, etc, it can, you can learn a lot just from looking at the data. Yeah, yeah. So ask people what they feel as well. Of course, you know,

Beverley Isibor  14:42 

it's true, quantitative. Is or is it qualitative? Qualitative?

Qualitative? Yeah, what do people

very much. Valuable. Yes. So I guess you know, you've kind of spoken about the transfer. Of a Athena SWAN, meaning that Athena SWAN hasn't stayed the same since its inception, right? So, you know, you've been part of panels, for instance, could you kind of briefly talk us through panels and how, like, it works, and, you know what? Yeah, the benefits of having a panel,

Sara Mole  15:20 

yeah, so, so, so we don't say cheese, sort of the Athena SWAN awards are done, decided by panel. So, you know, you've read your department or the Institute has written the submission. A panel will look at a number of submissions at the same time. There are, there's a, you know, the framework has principles that we're aligning to, so which, of course, the as you're writing the application, you're aware of, and then the panel is judging how well the application meets those. And certainly the transform charter, I really like how it does because the scoring is quite simple. It's, you know, not addressed at all. Okay, narrowly missed. Good enough. Or, actually, I can't remember what the exact thing there's sort of 123, or four. So two is narrowly missed. One is really not good. Hopefully no one gets the one. Three is, you know, yeah, absolutely it's met, and four is good, so not perfect, yeah, don't expect perfection. So obviously, aiming to sort of get scores of three or four on on anything, and it's done in a very developmental way now more so, so a really good way that in the transform charter. So for example, an application, maybe it gets a score for two in one section. It doesn't mean you failed. What the panel can just, can say is no two that's fine. They just need to do a little bit of work on this. You know, maybe their action plan wasn't quite smart enough, or weren't quite sure who was doing the actions or wasn't quite spread out over the five years. So do that work? You know, just change your action plan, and then you've got the award. So you don't even need to sort of resubmit an application. Yeah, it's a recommendation, and you do that. So it's, it's, it's a real developmental kind of thing now, so if you've put the work in, maybe you, I mean, UCL. I hope we run mock panels at UCL, yeah, so hopefully we'll have picked up anything where there's a little, you know, you're falling short a little bit, so that actually, that's not a problem for UCL departments going in, but it's a developmental charter, and it's done very encouragingly. If

Beverley Isibor  17:25 

you're a department listening, or you're intrigued to, you know, get involved with Athena SWAN, I would definitely say that there is quite a bit of support at UCL before you submit it to advance. He and I've sat on panels with Sara, and honestly, the thorough nature of, you know, going through an application, haven't done it under the transformed Athena SWAN, so I'm very keen to get that experience. But from the past, you know, the volunteers. This is all voluntary work, by the way, people volunteer their time to go through the department's applications and, you know, see how they can improve. And, you know, seek out imperfections, so hopefully it can become almost perfect in time for Athena SWAN submission. So I can

Sara Mole  18:20 

say that since we set up the MOT panels, which is a number of years ago, now, yes, every department that's engaged with them, and listen to what we've said, they've got their award. So it's definitely worth doing. And you know, if you're, if you're in a department that's fairly new to Athena SWAN or Well, or even if you're experienced but not familiar with the transform charter, you know, send someone from your your SAT team, you know, your EDI team to sit on a panel coming up sat meaning, meaning self esteem, self esteem, just for the listeners that don't understand. Then you can sort of look at an application from the panel's perspective, and then that will really help you in preparing your own

Beverley Isibor  18:57 

Yes. Okay, thank you, Sara. So we're gonna move on from domestic Athena SWAN and look at it more internationally. So how does Athena SWAN compare with other gender equality and initiatives in higher education, both in the UK and internationally? Gosh,

Sara Mole  19:18 

that's a really good question, because Athena SWAN is sort of global now, but it's it's so there's Athena SWAN in other countries that very much acknowledge that the developments of Athena SWAN, but they're modified to be for that country, such as India. Maybe we'll chat about that in a minute, because I know you were involved in that, Beverley, but there's also other schemes that are gender equality schemes, such as in the States or Australia or Canada, where they've sort of devised their own I know Canada has really, sort of, you know, looked at Athena SWAN and learned from Athena swans. They were developing their own EDI charter, but they've decided to do a whole EDI charter rather than focus on particular. Characteristics. So quite complex. And their chart is called dimensions, and, you know, very ambitious, and it's certainly running now. And of course, they consider their indigenous people as well, so as well as people's individual characteristics. So yeah, so there are some others going but I would say Athena SWAN is recognized internationally, and certainly other countries are starting to sort of adopt and take it on board.

Beverley Isibor  20:28 

And I guess it's naturally sharing best practice that's true. And I was actually involved. I did a secondment with you, Sara. We were involved in a project called gati, meaning gender advancement, for transforming institutions in India. We did it remotely because it was during covid times. I

Sara Mole  20:50 

know, do you remember the some of the Indian Institutes came to visit us, but then covid hit, so we never got to go to India. You're

Beverley Isibor  20:56 

so jealous. I was like, Why do you get to come here and I don't get to go there? It was my dream to go to India, but anyways, that's a by the way, but it was such a good project, because we got to exchange not only us giving them some form of best practice, but also learning as to how things are actually running in India. And it was such a good experience where we organized workshops and we, you know, hosted them on a trip, as Sara has mentioned, and it was just very nice to share that practice. And it was, of course, done on an institutional level, that's right, yeah, they were institutional applications, yes. So it will support, you know, hopefully, our ambitions for gold. But regardless of that, I think it was just an a wholesome experience to be involved in. And it really did, you know, open my experience to, you know, what is happening in gender equality more widely beyond the UK lens. Yeah, it's really interesting.

Sara Mole  21:52 

So that. So for the India project, I think we supported five institutions, didn't we, and they all got their awards. And some of them got not just the level one award, which is their first award. Some of them got level two awards. So I think we really helped them, you know, in understanding and putting their application together. I mean, they did all the work, but we were there sharing our learning. And it's interesting what you say about learning from other institutions. So I've been connected with some of our academic partners in Japan and other institutions was able to visit there a few years ago now. And you know, some things in Japan, they're doing better than we are. You know, they're considering things that we don't. So we really can learn from other places. Yes,

Beverley Isibor  22:32 

and I guess that's in any point in life. Never feel like you're just because you know you're recognized as something great, that you're limited to learning something to learn exactly. So, okay, since we're talking about diverse groups, I think you'll be really good to touch on a topic called Stonewall. So Stonewall has obviously gone through a bit of controversy at UCL, in terms of UCL coming out of Stonewall charter, for those that don't know what Stonewall is, it's basically equivalent to Athena SWAN, but for LGBTQ plus people. So there's been a lot of talk now about, why do we have Athena SWAN and we don't have Stonewall? Would you like to touch base on that a

Sara Mole  23:23 

bit? Yeah. So obviously, as you say, UCL decided to withdraw from Stonewall, and then took some time to reflect and it, you know, and has actually set up LGBTQ sort of new actions and initiatives and implementation, implement, yeah. So UCL did decide to withdraw from Stonewall, and it took some time, but it set up an implementation group, so having a real focus for LGBTQ at UCL. So, so the work in terms of supporting staff and students and thinking about where there's, you know, challenges for people to progress. You know that work is going on. It's just it won't be recognized by Stonewall. Stonewall was something that UCL, as an institute, sort of submitted to, or could, I mean, it was entirely up to UCL whether it did it, but that was sort of an annual thing, whereas Athena SWAN, for example, is now five years, every five years, so you sort of think long term. And Athena SWAN does include ask you to think about gender and trans inclusion, etc. So it certainly, yeah, exactly we can think. And of course, you know if, let's say UCL as a whole, or a department, if they if it was some particularly important to a department, they can, of course, focus some of their energy on LGBTQ equality within their department and but again, as long as the gender lens is there, yeah, then you're fine.

Beverley Isibor  24:53 

So I guess then that kind of gives us a bit of differences between Stonewall and the Venus one. Yeah. Yeah, because I think, from my understanding, Stonewall is more about UC as an employer. Am I correct? Yeah, I think you're right, yeah. And Athena SWAN is more as UCR as an institution, you know, that includes students and staff, yeah?

Sara Mole  25:18 

And the organization, Stonewall is different, because they obviously have, you know, their their goals, etc, whereas Athena SWAN comes under Advanced he, which is serving higher education, you know, and serving its members, yeah. So we have a say in how we want, you know, what advanced he do, and how we want Athena SWAN, for example, to run.

Beverley Isibor  25:39 

So, yeah, so I guess we've identified the, I guess the differences between the two charters. But as we've spoken about before in this episode about intersectionality, and you know, the importance of data, and where, you know you can use a Venus one as the foundation to identify any issues that are happening across sexes, then I guess that will be really good. That's

Sara Mole  26:04 

absolutely keeps going. And one of the things we haven't already touched on with Athena SWAN is we've mentioned the institutional work and the department level work. And I no other charter framework does that, because, as you say, stonewalls at institutional level. So Athena SWAN is, is the place where departments can do that grassroots change, and things can bubble up from the sort of, you know, the the department level, looking at exactly what's right for their departments, or the challenges in their department and for their faculty. And that can feed up and and influence the institutional work. And of course, the institution, of course, can do, you know, set up good procedures and policies and that sort of thing, which then serves the faculties. But I really love the departmental, grassroots level work and the the institutional level work. And I think that's one of the real benefits of Athena SWAN, really, that you can address EDI from any level, yeah, wherever it needs to be addressed from, and meet in the middle, yes,

Beverley Isibor  27:05  

and that's important in not only Athena SWAN, but EDI work in general, where sometimes people don't know where to start. And what I love about Athena SWAN is that yes, you said it can start at any point, and you know, the conversations will be had where, you know, initiatives and projects can, you know, come together if it needs to go to an institute level, if it needs to go more, you know, grassroots level, which is in the partners and Institute.

Sara Mole  27:33 

Because, if you think about, certainly for staff at UCL, you know, most of us work in our in a bubble, yeah, be quite a very small bubble wider, yeah, but UCL is massive, you know, we, you know, we're just not conscious of what's going on everywhere. So, so what Athena SWAN does is, is allow, you know, that group of people who are working together as a department, yeah, to address what's happening in their, you know, their UCL bubble, yeah.

Beverley Isibor  27:59 

So okay, based on that, now, where do you see a Athena SWAN at UCL in the future? So,

Sara Mole  28:09 

so I guess there's two things under the transform charter. I hope there'll be some new departments that start to work for their first award, bronze, because it's now a charter that that's much, much friendlier, friendlier to them. And, of course, for you know, very small departments, they don't have to do departmental award. They could group together with other departments in their faculty and do a Faculty Award if they wanted. So, you know, it's whatever works. So advanced, he are really flexible. So, so that's not a problem. That's

Beverley Isibor  28:36 

actually an interesting point, because I'm thinking, for example, at brain sciences. We have a few small departments, such as Institute of PRI and diseases and the Ear Institute. So if for any reason, they felt like, oh, coming together into one application, since they're under the same faculty, yeah, then I guess they could,

Sara Mole  28:55 

yeah. And you know, it's not that you look as if you're one department, you know, you'd sort of draw out some of the differences between them, but it just might make it administratively, you know, in that kind of the burden of putting an application and writing it might just reduce, reduce that burden. Okay, so there's that. So some new applications. And I also, in fact, I know that some of the departments holding silver awards, you know, they've got the gold in their site. And so as they apply for their new awards. They will be for gold awards. And UCL has its next institutional application due in 2026, and I really hope that will be a gold application that will be awarded, you know as well. Yeah, I think we should. I think we are. We are doing good EDI work, and we're certainly recognized, both within the UK and also internationally, or, you know, Europe and whatever, we are recognized as taking Udi seriously and doing stuff so and then if we look forward, you know, there will be another super transformation of Athena SWAN, because it gets reviewed every five years. So, you know, in five years time. Uh, things will be slightly different again, because obviously, if you look back at where we were in 2005 or 2009 when UCL got its first departmental award, you know, our understanding of EDI and the world itself has changed a lot. So it has to, it has to keep up with the times. So I we don't know for sure, but I suspect Athena SWAN will allow much more intersectional work, sort of, you know, and maybe it will be go more than that, but I know they're looking at things, but, you know, but I know they're just looking at things now. So unfortunately, ask me in a year, and I might have some, you know, more concrete news, but, but, you know, a sort of more holistic charter, perhaps, yeah, where we can choose what to focus on at any one time, or might work a little bit differently, but always to improve EDI in higher education institutes, of

Beverley Isibor 00:30:48

Of course. Okay. So I'm just this is going to be the final question for you here. So in your capacity as UCL Gender Envoy, can you share any experiences that highlight the impacts of Athena SWAN. So we've spoken a lot about, you know, intersectionality. We've spoken a lot about, you know, identifying issues that may, need addressing. And I really want to know what what is one thing that you've seen happen at UCL, especially given the time period that you've been involved with? Athena is one that you say, this is such an amazing thing that's happened across the time.

Sara Mole 31:26

Okay, so I'll give you two quick things, okay? One at departments level and one institutional level. Yeah. So at department departments level, it's sort of realized, so this is when I was in the LMC and we were sort of working towards early, early, awards just realizing that, you know, we had used to have internal and external speakers come in once a week, who we invited was entirely under our control. But of course, if we looked at it, they weren't gender equal. You know, it was. Yeah. And so basically we said every time we suggest a speaker to come in, you have to suggest someone of the opposite gender. And that way we could invite at least.

Beverley Isibor 31:59

Very intentional.

Sara Mole 32:01

not just invite, but also make sure that we booked in, you know, gender parity. So good role models. So that was and that's entirely under our controls. Any department can do that. You know, whatever is appropriate for them at institutional level. The thing I'm really proud of is you see, I worked at so bringing about a new academic promotion framework back in about 2017, 20 1718. And once that started, the number of female professors doubled in the following year. because they changed the, you know, they put the emphasis, the four pillars, as it were, of how you assessed, contributions. And, and women were then starting to be assessed for some of the work they were doing, but they weren't being recognized for. And of course, the men also got promoted to professor because of the work they were doing. And previously, they might not have been, so I just.

00:32:54:15 - 00:33:01:03

Beverley

Say one thing. Yeah, very quickly. There’s a myth about, Athena SWAN that is only for women.

Sara Mole 33:01

yes.

Beverley Isibor 33:01

I actually wanted to mention that, people think that it's. Yeah. Of course, women, disadvantage more widely when we're looking at different disciplines and in the data, for example, if we identify that actually men are disadvantaged in a certain area, it will equally be addressed.

Sara Mole 33:21

Absolutely. It is gender equality. It's not women's equality.

Beverley Isibor 33:24

Exactly.

Sara Mole 33:25

So of course, when it started it was about science. So of course pretty much in physics, maths, whatever, you know, chemistry, you know, it was clear we mean much at advantage. But now it doesn't matter what the discipline it's. What's your gender equality. Yeah. Where in men disadvantaged in that particular discipline let's say nursing. Yes. No need more male ecology. Exactly. So you know, it's about gender equality. Yes. but you're right. People still think, oh, it's just about women. It's not. It's gender equality. Yes. And of course, in a, in a particular discipline, it can be, you know, one way, you know, maybe men are disadvantaged earlier on or maybe they're equal and then, you know, but but in seniority then it might reverse. So yeah, you know, again, you need your data. Yeah. To see what you need to address your rights. Gender equality. Yes.

Beverley Isibor 34:10

Okay. Thank you. so I'm just going to ask you another personal question. So, you know, personally for yourself, like what would you say is the good thing about being, UCL gender employee?

Sara Mole 34:24

So I guess the thing I've really enjoyed is, learning about EDI, learning about how to bring about cultural change. Yeah. And, you know, because of course, one person doesn't do that. It's really about working with lots of other people and recognizing and bringing all that work together. So that's, you know, that's not necessarily easy to do, especially when, as you said, at some point earlier in this podcast, people are often volunteers.

Sara Mole 00:34:49:19

They're sort of doing it, you know? Yes, hopefully their work is recognized, but still, it's not what they're it's not their main job notes. And then, whatever they're whether they're an academic or, professional service, member staff or even the students that help us. Yeah. but I've really enjoyed seeing how to bring about change and meeting a whole load of people across UCL that I might never have met otherwise.

Beverley Isibor 00:35:13

Including, you know, I like to give myself props. Hahaha

Sara Mole 35:16

And and internationally as well. Yeah. Of course, I think people I've met, you know, being really good.

Beverley Isibor 35:22:

Yeah. Then on that night, it was lovely seeing you again, Sara, and it was lovely having you on this podcast. I've really enjoyed this conversation, especially as I'm quite involved with Athena SWAN, and I really want to use this opportunity to encourage departments, probably not involved in the Athena swamp. you know, curious about advancing gender equality. And even if you don't particularly go for Athena SWAN, but you want to do the work, you know, reach out to, you know, UCL and see what, you know, opportunities are out there to get involved, and get your department involved. So on that note, thank you. Sara, I'm in this conversation has been very insightful. we have discussed the many dimensions of a scene, this one from intersectionality to data to, you know, how it compares internationally. And I'm really proud of the work that UCL are doing and also brain sciences. And although there is more work to be done, I I'm very, you know, excited for the future. So thank you for come in.

Sara Mole 36:28

Thanks so much Beverly. It's I've really enjoyed, speaking to you and, been great to meet you again. And I look forward to some more gold awards. Can we had some brain sciences?

Beverley Isibor 36:17

Yes. Hopefully. Fingers crossed for ION in 2025. but yeah, on that note, I will end it here. Thank you for joining the Eddie Iconic Halls at Brain Sciences podcast. I'm your host, Beverly lsibor, and I hope you join us next time.