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Imagine if your hair type or style prevented you from accessing neuroimaging research?
Brain scanning research plays a vital role in understanding the human mind and behaviour, yet accessibility barriers prevent certain groups from participating. Physical limitations create exclusions, such as Functional Near-Infrared Spectroscopy (fNIRS) with fixed hairstyles (e.g., cornrows, dark hair, curly hair). Some communities may never receive the opportunity to take part. These gaps raise important equity and inclusion concerns, as they result in a scientific understanding of the brain that does not fully represent the diversity of the population.
In this episode, Beverley Isibor sits down with Dwaynica Greaves, a PhD candidate at UCL, to unpack the barriers in neuroimaging research, Dwaynica, along with her research team Antonia Hamilton and Isla Jones, is investigating the accessibility of neuroimaging research for diverse participant groups, with a particular focus on how hair types impact participation. —particularly how hair types and styles can impact participation. They discuss the Centre for Equality Research in Brain Sciences funded research project 'Accessibility of Neuroimaging research to diverse participants groups', why accessibility in research matters, the biases in scientific equipment, and what could be done to make neuroimaging inclusive of individual physical properties.
About Dwaynica Greaves
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00:00:10:02 - 00:00:35:23
Beverley Isibor
Hello and welcome to the EDI Chronicles at Brain Sciences podcast. I'm your host, Beverly Isibor. The equality, diversity and inclusion coordinator at the Faculty of Brain Sciences. In this podcast, we sit down with an expert to learn about all the wonderful and impactful things happening in brain sciences, as well as higher education more widely in the equality, diversity and inclusion space.
00:00:36:00 - 00:00:56:17
Beverley Isibor
Or you can say, as EDI Space. So whether it's learning, working or researching. This podcast is dedicated for academics, professional staff, researchers, and any curious people willing to learn about embedding EDI in their practice.
00:00:56:19 - 00:01:29:17
Beverley Isibor
Dwaynica Greaves is a final year PhD candidate at UCL Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience. She specialises in the interdisciplinary research between the fields of social cognitive, neuroscience and theatre. Outside of academia, Dwaynica works within the dance and science communication industry and is also a creative. Dwaynica is speaking on behalf of the research project team, which includes Professor Antonia Hamilton and Doctor Isla Jones.
00:01:29:19 - 00:01:45:17
Beverley Isibor
So in today's episode, we will be speaking about a research project funded by the ERB centre on the Accessibility of Neuroimaging Research to diverse participant groups. So hello Dwaynica. Welcome to the studio today. How are you doing?
00:01:45:19 - 00:01:46:19
Dwaynica Greaves
Hi I'm really good.
00:01:46:20 - 00:01:59:15
Beverley Isibor
I actually met you when you were giving your annual seminar talk at the Equality Research Centre at Brain Sciences annual seminar event in summer 2024.
00:01:59:17 - 00:02:03:02
Dwaynica Greaves
I can't even remember. Yeah. It's going past us. I know.
00:02:03:03 - 00:02:06:00
Beverley Isibor
Yeah. Yeah. It was. Yeah. It was just. Yeah, it was the summer.
00:02:06:00 - 00:02:07:14
Dwaynica Greaves
It wasn't the annual seminar was it not?
00:02:07:17 - 00:02:08:00
Beverley Isibor
Yeah.
00:02:08:07 - 00:02:09:06
Dwaynica Greaves
Is that what you guys call?
00:02:09:06 - 00:02:10:15
Beverley Isibor
Yeah. Well, I call it that.
00:02:10:20 - 00:02:20:10
Dwaynica Greaves
Oh oh. Oh yeah. Because every year the funding comes and then you get. Okay. So as I said, my and you said yeah, wait, guys, I'm not.
00:02:20:10 - 00:02:21:05
Beverley Isibor
Your personal.
00:02:21:07 - 00:02:23:20
Dwaynica Greaves
I'm not ready for that yet. Yes.
00:02:23:22 - 00:02:53:13
Beverley Isibor
But, yes. At the Equality Research Centre at Brain Sciences, give an annual seminar. Every year if it's not in the name already. But, yeah. So you were speaking about neuro imaging and the accessibility ten year imaging, and that was the research that was funded by the centre itself. So it'll be really good to speak in detail about why my hair.
00:02:53:15 - 00:03:04:18
Beverley Isibor
So I'm a black woman. Potentially my hair type may not be, I guess, suitable for, particular less is an MRI machine or something like that.
00:03:04:18 - 00:03:08:24
Dwaynica Greaves
It really depends on. But that's one of them. We had a couple of them, but yeah.
00:03:08:24 - 00:03:28:15
Beverley Isibor
Okay. So yeah. So I really want to know more about that. And we're going to, you know, discuss in great detail about why the accessibility is important. And yeah, it be really good to actually just start off what is Neuro-Imaging Yeah. What is Neuro-Imaging?
00:03:28:17 - 00:03:51:17
Dwaynica Greaves
So Neuro-Imaging is just a technique that we use to find out what happens in the brain. That's just the main thing about it. But there are many different techniques that can be used. Yeah. More than what I even I will use one. You know, other researchers may use a combination in, a lot of labs will specialise in, you know, a particular device that they use to just help us know.
00:03:51:17 - 00:04:05:13
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah, what's happening in the brain when you're doing a particular task or, like, anything really any research question that you have, you can create an experiment where you put brain imaging in there to give you that kind of information that you need.
00:04:05:15 - 00:04:14:22
Beverley Isibor
Okay. So is that common types that, you know, someone like me would potentially know about just based on the that I didn't use or anything?
00:04:15:02 - 00:04:19:12
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. So I feel like a lot of people MRI, I would say is the one that everybody you know.
00:04:19:12 - 00:04:22:17
Beverley Isibor
Yes I do. Yeah. You see, I'm a small girl.
00:04:22:19 - 00:04:32:07
Dwaynica Greaves
I would say MRI because a lot of people get MRI for medical reasons as well. Outside of just being a participant in a study. I mean, I've never had an MRI, but.
00:04:32:07 - 00:04:54:06
Beverley Isibor
I actually had fun. Fun fact, fun fact, I had an MRI three weeks, two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And it was a very different experience to when I go into some form of health facility. But yeah, very, very cool. And they actually told me quite a bit about my brain.
00:04:54:08 - 00:05:13:12
Dwaynica Greaves
So that's one of them. And that an MRI uses a magnetic field to basically get that information from the brain. We've also got EEG. So I can't lie guys, you're going to have to type EEG in Google to pronounce what it means, but basically use electrical activity. I just cannot pronounce the full words.
00:05:13:12 - 00:05:31:21
Beverley Isibor
One of the words, it's just one of those words. My I had a, after it's unrelated to the brain sciences, but I had a very long time pronouncing this. Necessary, necessary, necessary. Like, honestly, it took me a while so I couldn't synthesise easily.
00:05:31:23 - 00:05:43:04
Dwaynica Greaves
But then the irony is the device that I use, which is fnirs for sure, and it's much more newer compared to MRI and EEG. But I can pronounce that because I you say.
00:05:43:09 - 00:05:44:04
Beverley Isibor
Let's start with that.
00:05:44:04 - 00:05:52:06
Dwaynica Greaves
This functional infrared spectroscopy. I never had that. I can't say hold up.
00:05:52:08 - 00:05:59:21
Beverley Isibor
That sounded like, Mary Poppins. Let's, she put phone.
00:05:59:23 - 00:06:03:13
Dwaynica Greaves
This is the. I could say that it's. But I can.
00:06:03:15 - 00:06:06:21
Beverley Isibor
I can okay. That's okay. That's hilarious. But, yeah, let's get serious.
00:06:06:24 - 00:06:27:21
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah, well, that uses that infrared light to give you some information about the oxygenation of the blood flow in the brain. Okay, so those are the three different devices that we were interested in in the survey that we created. Okay. But there are other devices that researchers use. But I thought I would just say those three because I'm sure many people, at least the first two I mentioned, many people will know more about.
00:06:27:21 - 00:06:28:11
Beverley Isibor
Those two.
00:06:28:16 - 00:06:29:24
Dwaynica Greaves
Compared to, say, deafness.
00:06:30:01 - 00:06:59:19
Beverley Isibor
Okay. Thank you. Yeah, it's really great that you break that down for us because then we kind of have an understanding that, I guess why you, researching alongside Anthony on either the access to your imaging. So, this kind of brings me to, the actual research itself and why you're doing it. So, yeah, we've mentioned that it's about accessibility based on hair types, which is.
00:07:00:00 - 00:07:21:19
Beverley Isibor
Well, there's other things that you're exploring. Yes. Yeah, in this research, but you are, particularly interested in hair types. That's what your expertise is based on. So we're going to speak about hair types. On this episode. And yeah, it would be really good to understand the barriers to participation. Based on that.
00:07:21:21 - 00:07:25:21
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. So I would also say I'm a black woman, too, for you. You can't see me.
00:07:25:21 - 00:07:26:05
Beverley Isibor
Yeah.
00:07:26:10 - 00:07:50:11
Dwaynica Greaves
So for me, you know, as someone that does brain imaging research, just seeing the criteria that has been given to us that certain hair types may not work with a particular device, even because it might be really, really curly. Or maybe the style that you've done with your hair is very hard to move around and certain devices like the one that I use, it really needs to have the contact with the scalp.
00:07:50:13 - 00:08:16:03
Dwaynica Greaves
So if you've got a particular hairstyle, or even if you got a weave or a wig or something like that, it can really well, you can't participate basically. Yeah. However, certain things, like I said, weaves particularly. Okay, that's understandable because you're not going to cut it out for, you know, for a study. But other things, for example, say, box braids or maybe, like locks or twists, we don't actually know.
00:08:16:03 - 00:08:35:07
Dwaynica Greaves
So I think it's really it's really bad to just say, okay, all of these hair types don't work because it looks like it won't work. We think it won't work. But especially for researchers who don't actually know the intricacies of these hairstyles, they actually don't know whether it works or not. Yeah. So we actually need to look into this into more detail.
00:08:35:13 - 00:08:59:20
Dwaynica Greaves
And as you said before, not just hair types. A survey has many other things in it. But for the hair types in particular, it's is your hair type stopping you from participating? Do you actually want to participate? Or maybe you just don't? Maybe you know, I'm not going to, you know, do anything to my hair to allow me to participate in this study, which is absolutely fine because I don't I don't do and that might be a reason as well, actually, because why.
00:08:59:22 - 00:09:03:10
Beverley Isibor
I was interested I don't you out of interest if you don't mind sharing. Yeah.
00:09:03:10 - 00:09:22:08
Dwaynica Greaves
You know that's fine. So it's just my concentration guys. It's I think as someone who creates studies, I feel like if I'm sitting down for a very long time doing these tasks, well, sometimes these tasks are actually quite short. They might be a 20 minute task, but it feels long because it's the same thing over and over again.
00:09:22:08 - 00:09:41:07
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. So just my preference as a person, okay. It's just not my thing. Okay. But then on the other side, certain things like for example EEG, I have helped people with their studies doing eg and let's say where EEG where you have to use a gel, it has to go on your scalp, in your hair. For me, I'm like, no way.
00:09:41:09 - 00:09:44:05
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. Even if I was washing my hair tomorrow.
00:09:44:06 - 00:09:45:10
Beverley Isibor
Yeah, I wouldn't.
00:09:45:12 - 00:09:46:12
Dwaynica Greaves
Like certain products.
00:09:46:12 - 00:09:48:00
Beverley Isibor
Or chemicals going to get my.
00:09:48:00 - 00:10:02:16
Dwaynica Greaves
Hair exactly. It is fine though. Is safe to use, but it's just more we already know say like the hair care community. Anyone out there that you know, if you need, you know, you know, it's like you're not putting any kind of thing in your hair to irritate your scalp or anything like that. So yeah.
00:10:02:18 - 00:10:33:10
Beverley Isibor
Me, unless I guess that why I was very interested in speaking to you about this project because as we both established, we're both black women. We both have different hair types. Right now, as we're sitting right in front of each other, you have braids on. I have, extensions. I've got a so in, extension. And I wonder if both of us, if we wanted to get a mirror image in, you know, MRI or whatever the case may be.
00:10:33:12 - 00:10:58:05
Beverley Isibor
We would have been prevented to do so just based on the kind of hair we have. And, it falls into that. In the first episode, we spoke about inclusive research. And inclusive research is not just having people in the room. It's also having the right people in the room and ensuring that, you know, the certain factors taken into account.
00:10:58:05 - 00:11:28:18
Beverley Isibor
But there's some things that are out of our power. And in this case, we can see that is beyond, let's say, the researcher not wanting you to to participate, but actually the machinery that is being used is already, default prevention. Yeah. So, it would be really good to like kind of touch base on manufacturing and other machines that, you know, they cost a lot of money, by the way.
00:11:28:20 - 00:11:52:13
Beverley Isibor
I know they cost a heavy amount. But if it's costing that much and it cannot fulfil the purpose of accessing a wide range of people, and it doesn't, of course, we're speaking in the capacity of black women. But there are, let's say, white women who have very thick, curly hair. Exactly. Would they impact someone like them or like.
00:11:52:13 - 00:12:02:09
Beverley Isibor
Yeah. So you're you're basically shutting out a whole, population based on their hair type. So, yeah, it would be really good to understand what you think. Yeah.
00:12:02:09 - 00:12:24:04
Dwaynica Greaves
So these machines come from industry. Industry and academia are not in the same provinces. You know, sometimes they work together, overlap like what we do with the companies that make these devices. But initially is the two separate things. So these devices, they're sold to academics, but they're also just sold to anyone who can afford them. In the industry.
00:12:24:06 - 00:12:26:19
Dwaynica Greaves
And we're talking about millions, you know.
00:12:26:23 - 00:12:31:15
Beverley Isibor
So would it be sold like a health care facility? I'm guessing that someone, somewhere in the NHS.
00:12:31:15 - 00:12:48:06
Dwaynica Greaves
Or even like, even, organisations that want to do marketing and just work out, I don't know, say, like if Ferrari want to see what happens in the brain when someone's driving their cars and they don't really set up the experiment, according to, let's say, our standards. But yeah, they if they want to do it, they can do it.
00:12:48:08 - 00:12:57:12
Dwaynica Greaves
Basically, it's a money making thing regarding industry. And this is just me speaking about what I think because I'm not in that industry. So if anyone's listening and you're like, actually, no, this isn't true.
00:12:57:12 - 00:13:01:10
Beverley Isibor
Yeah. Please reach out to me.
00:13:01:12 - 00:13:20:07
Dwaynica Greaves
But so what I'd say is industry, they're trying to make these devices that work. And they obviously put their devices through testing to see if it works. And then they get the green light and you can sell them. So I think it even starts there. Who are they testing these devices on these prototypes, you know, before they become the final product.
00:13:20:07 - 00:13:25:02
Dwaynica Greaves
Who are they doing on the devices that we use? They're not even made in the UK anyway.
00:13:25:02 - 00:13:27:12
Beverley Isibor
Oh they're. No, no. Well they're usually made.
00:13:27:12 - 00:13:37:22
Dwaynica Greaves
So the one that I use is made in Japan. There's another device I think it's somewhere in Europe. So not UK based devices. Not saying that, you know, the UK would do any better I don't know.
00:13:37:24 - 00:13:38:13
Beverley Isibor
We don't know that.
00:13:38:19 - 00:13:59:22
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah, exactly. But we have to think like these organisations have their own agendas. Not bad. It's just it's just a part of the game goes you know. Yeah. You want to make a device and sell it. And if you kind of do your your research on how the device works, you may not do it in the same way how a neuroscience is what kind of balance.
00:13:59:22 - 00:14:01:14
Dwaynica Greaves
Make sure you get, you know, what.
00:14:01:14 - 00:14:02:15
Beverley Isibor
Parties work for.
00:14:02:17 - 00:14:05:03
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. You just want the green light to sell your product I guess.
00:14:05:03 - 00:14:47:01
Beverley Isibor
Yeah. There's different motivations. Motivation for a manufacturer will be profit and a motivation for someone like yourself would be research and understanding more about society. Yeah. So but then that does that poses a huge, I guess, challenge to every society in general. Because if these two, you know, sectors are not collaborating, to create such products that, are used for society, well, deemed to be useful to society, then I guess there's a gap in potential knowledge that could, you know, have an impact on society.
00:14:47:07 - 00:14:49:15
Beverley Isibor
Yeah, everything impacts society initially.
00:14:49:17 - 00:15:07:06
Dwaynica Greaves
But I think it's good to note that because what a lot of what we do with our collaborate is, is that we actually feed back. So, you know, I think on a yearly basis, I think I've done this twice. You know, I report back the research that I've done and the pros and the cons, and then we feed that back to them and they can take that into consideration when they give.
00:15:07:06 - 00:15:09:15
Beverley Isibor
Them like recommendations. Yeah. Okay.
00:15:09:18 - 00:15:15:18
Dwaynica Greaves
So that's a positive thing. And I'm assuming maybe, maybe other other organisations do that as well.
00:15:15:20 - 00:15:30:19
Beverley Isibor
How receptive are there when you go back and forth about that. Are they like do they take it on sometimes or is it more of like a, Frank referred to this? Maybe we need to push this to the deadline right now. Yeah, yeah.
00:15:30:19 - 00:15:54:24
Dwaynica Greaves
Interesting. Well, I can't speak on that fully. Only because I'm not a professor. Oh, you know, of course. Yeah. I'm not the the first point of contact with these companies in the sessions that we hold is receptive. It's really nice. But I honestly don't know what happens post that. What my supervisors or the principal investigators of the labs that use the devices, they would actually know the reality of what it's like to collaborate with the industry.
00:15:54:24 - 00:16:25:02
Beverley Isibor
Where like, okay, so your research also highlights that how head touch can impact neuro imaging. So based on what we've just discussed, what already alluded to structural bias in research, because it's something that is out of your control, is something that is out of even their control in some capacity. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I guess it would be really now good to explore the human properties.
00:16:25:02 - 00:16:37:09
Beverley Isibor
Like what are the physical properties that exist within humans that could prevent. So we've established hair types. So could we elaborate on the different hair types that, you know may be affected.
00:16:37:11 - 00:17:01:21
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. So with your hair it could be from thin to thick from coast. What's the opposite? Of course. No, no. Yeah. Fine. That's fine. Of course. There we go. So that already exists within the different hair types. And when I say hair types, if any of you know, like the hair type chart I referenced that, you know, like from straight to coily from 1 to 2.
00:17:02:01 - 00:17:04:09
Beverley Isibor
44. Yeah.
00:17:04:11 - 00:17:13:15
Dwaynica Greaves
So within these hair types you have that variation. And then outside of that, you've got the straight to the really kinky curly. Yeah. Type hair.
00:17:13:20 - 00:17:18:23
Beverley Isibor
So what's this? Just out of reference. What's your hair type? Oh, I think,
00:17:19:00 - 00:17:23:07
Dwaynica Greaves
I feel like homophobia. Okay, I think I think so, I think.
00:17:23:07 - 00:17:37:21
Beverley Isibor
I'm a full B or a. Yeah. So I've got, I've got, curly hair, but it's fine. Yeah. So yeah, that's just for people that don't know that had to be really good to set your hair type.
00:17:37:21 - 00:17:38:20
Dwaynica Greaves
I just.
00:17:38:22 - 00:17:44:08
Beverley Isibor
I think people are so like especially within the black community, everyone just alludes that, oh, my hair type is full.
00:17:44:08 - 00:17:45:17
Dwaynica Greaves
See it. Oh yeah.
00:17:45:18 - 00:17:49:19
Beverley Isibor
But actually there's different hair types within let's say the black community.
00:17:49:20 - 00:17:50:04
Dwaynica Greaves
Exactly.
00:17:50:09 - 00:18:11:11
Beverley Isibor
And there's also different hair types within the white community. Asian community. Yeah. It varies along the spectrum. So as we've kind of mentioned before, that is not only based on obviously hair types can it can be grouped based on race, but most like there are differences from within. So everyone is affected. Yeah.
00:18:11:11 - 00:18:27:11
Dwaynica Greaves
Because I think it's important to note that, like we're saying, within the different racial or maybe ethnic groups, you can have different hair types. So white people can have really curly hair too. And also because same with the divides, we use the colour of your hair as well.
00:18:27:11 - 00:18:29:22
Beverley Isibor
Colour. If I wanted to talk about. Yeah.
00:18:29:22 - 00:18:38:14
Dwaynica Greaves
So the darker the hair the harder it is for the light to get through. And that's just physics, right? Oh wow. So yeah. And once again, black people don't.
00:18:38:16 - 00:18:40:11
Beverley Isibor
Keep a lot of people out.
00:18:40:13 - 00:19:03:00
Dwaynica Greaves
Best fit. Yeah. Blonde and thin hair. Yeah. It's basically the best fit for these devices, which if we go back to the, to the organisations that make these devices. Well, these companies, they don't have blonde hair. So you can already see is is just, it's also physics is also. Yeah. I don't know what it takes to make a brain imaging device.
00:19:03:02 - 00:19:23:17
Dwaynica Greaves
And maybe they have particular limitations that they may face as well with just the, what's the what the materials or, you know, the things that they have to use to make these devices. Maybe there's a limitation there, too, because, I mean, I don't know what they would have to do to consider getting light to shine through something that's almost opaque, that's beyond us.
00:19:23:19 - 00:19:52:06
Beverley Isibor
So what is it? Hopefully they listen to this podcast. I'm thinking, I hope there's a few thinking caps going on and they can actually think about actually what can we do to make sure that I don't know, someone who has jet black hair could, not be, declined from participate in research? Okay. That's really good. So we've spoken about physical human properties.
00:19:52:06 - 00:20:18:03
Beverley Isibor
Now I want to speak about the, responsibility of progress in inclusive research. So, we've established that even from the justice discussion that, you know, there's manufacturing instances, there's, you know, there's, us as humans, something that we cannot change, unless like, you know, I decide to, I don't know if I decide to, dye my hair blonde.
00:20:18:03 - 00:20:35:20
Beverley Isibor
Maybe I'll have a chance. But, yeah, there's other, things that, let's say, out of our control. But when we speak about actually getting people into these rooms to actually participate in research, who does that responsibility fall on? In terms of getting a wider pool of participants?
00:20:35:22 - 00:20:42:22
Dwaynica Greaves
So I think we've researchers I'll use this analogy. You know, if you're for an a party, you want people to come to your party or if.
00:20:42:22 - 00:20:44:04
Beverley Isibor
Someone's at that party.
00:20:44:06 - 00:21:02:00
Dwaynica Greaves
It isn't exactly. It's on you to make sure that you promote your party very well. And then if people don't turn up, maybe you can say it's because of something else. But we have to start there. We have to start with what kind of information are you putting out into the the world to kind of get people in and get people on board?
00:21:02:02 - 00:21:20:14
Dwaynica Greaves
And we also do take that into consideration in the survey that we made, because some people may actually be apprehensive just to be in, in the university space. Yeah. So you have to think about that the way we're accustomed to this space. I mean, for me, I've been in education practically that my whole life. So for me, it's nothing but decided to do.
00:21:20:16 - 00:21:42:00
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So even but even myself, I mean, know, come to my uni. I mean, sometimes I, even the place where we are right now, I don't really my office is somewhere else, guys, and I, I don't really come to the main campus and that's me as a student, you know, not really navigating my space. So imagine someone out external that is just a new environment for them.
00:21:42:00 - 00:22:06:22
Dwaynica Greaves
Maybe there's like a lot of information that they've heard that's not so positive about these spaces. And also these studies, we do them in a slightly different way to like maybe medical stuff, but it's still the same device. So if someone's had a really bad experience, like with the NHS and these devices, we've got to think to ourselves, we are trying to recruit people with just so much background, so much context.
00:22:07:03 - 00:22:31:20
Dwaynica Greaves
How can we do this? You know, how can we think about this? We we can't just you can't just like as I said before, okay, I want to throw a party. You just expect everyone's going to turn up. I'm not. No. There's some layering that you've got to do, to kind of draw people in. So I would say firstly, the way that you break it down because of course, we're so used to just, you know, speaking our jargons and we know that device is safe.
00:22:31:20 - 00:22:43:07
Dwaynica Greaves
We know the device is fine. It's easy to use, etc.. They know exactly. So we do I mean, every study on the ethics has to give a participant information sheet that has a lot of information, but is.
00:22:43:07 - 00:22:43:19
Beverley Isibor
Reading all of.
00:22:43:19 - 00:22:45:24
Dwaynica Greaves
That is very dense. Exactly.
00:22:46:02 - 00:23:10:06
Beverley Isibor
Even I just literally just wrap my head around the concept of ethics. Yeah. And that was based on this podcast. So how much more obviously my own work as well. But at the same time it's very, if you're not an academic or you're not interested in academia, like, it's very hard to wrap your head around sometimes and.
00:23:10:08 - 00:23:11:13
Beverley Isibor
Yeah.
00:23:11:15 - 00:23:13:07
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:13:09 - 00:23:35:01
Beverley Isibor
Even, just to point out, like as I said before, in the beginning, I actually went for an MRI scan. And I remember telling my mum about it and she was like, why? Like it was just like, are you sure? Like, you know, radiation, like just things that you share on YouTube. And yeah, just being out there, yeah.
00:23:35:01 - 00:23:46:09
Beverley Isibor
She was like very much not, she wasn't. I don't go, but at the same time, she's just like, why are you doing that? And, if I was not an independent.
00:23:46:11 - 00:23:48:01
Dwaynica Greaves
Thinker.
00:23:48:03 - 00:24:08:07
Beverley Isibor
Especially you have to be like that as the last born child. But, if I wasn't an independent thinker, just based on my mum telling me, oh, like, why are you doing that? Radiation or something like that, then I would immediately not participated in, what they were trying to find out from that MRI and what they were doing was testing the machine.
00:24:08:07 - 00:24:35:22
Beverley Isibor
So they were testing an old, device and versus the new one that they want to use, and beyond, even my mum. Another thing was, the access. I didn't know about the research unless my manager told me, oh, she did this really cool research. And it was just fortunate that the person that was, facilitating the research was working in another part in, office building.
00:24:35:24 - 00:24:57:04
Beverley Isibor
So it was just by chance, essentially. But those kind of instances don't happen every day. So this falls onto what you are speaking about, accessibility and the layers that researchers have to go through to access different kinds of people that are not only within an academic space.
00:24:57:04 - 00:25:30:14
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. And I feel like even things like this, me right now doing the podcast, that is really helpful because that's all part of we call it science communication. And I think just coming out of your bubble and speaking to the public, breaking down your research even from like, let's say secondary school and stuff like that. Yeah. Being able to do that one is just good as a research in general, because if we are creating these studies and they are for the general public to understand and read or it actually impacts the general public, we should be able to speak someone to like, you know, a 1 to 1 level and just be like, this
00:25:30:14 - 00:25:36:16
Dwaynica Greaves
is the reality of what we're doing and just explain it in a very like layman's terms. I think.
00:25:36:21 - 00:25:39:00
Beverley Isibor
Sometimes it's a bit challenging for research to.
00:25:39:00 - 00:25:50:04
Dwaynica Greaves
Do that. Right? Because this an extra workload because, I mean, we already have to do so much. Like, in fact, you know, when you ask me in the beginning, how am I know I'm good. I'm so it's not.
00:25:50:04 - 00:25:52:09
Beverley Isibor
Friday, essentially.
00:25:52:11 - 00:26:07:00
Dwaynica Greaves
Exactly. Now, there's just a lot of things to do, and it's almost like it's like a I don't it's almost like it's communications. Like, I don't like if you can do this is great, but also that, you know, that's if people are confident to do these kind of tools, that's a whole other bag of skills like basically requires from you.
00:26:07:02 - 00:26:22:11
Dwaynica Greaves
So we are trying obviously some more than others. But I think we do like I said, I think I don't think the responsibility is on the participant. I think it's on us because we're the ones that are the experts in the room. Yeah. So you can't be like, oh, you know, it's for the participants to read up on on this.
00:26:22:11 - 00:26:35:08
Dwaynica Greaves
No, no, no, no, you explain it. So even if it's things like, like a book club or like, even for me, I recruited actors because I look at actors, guys, and I look at what happens in their brain when they perform with rehearsing and things like that.
00:26:35:10 - 00:26:40:16
Beverley Isibor
Interesting. Hello. Another subject to speak about. That's that's really interesting. Thank you.
00:26:40:22 - 00:27:00:13
Dwaynica Greaves
So we've actors I already knew. Okay. A lot of them may not have the experience of, like, to experiment. Like they're not undergrad students who get recruited a lot in these studies. So because of that, I actually had zoom meetings with each of the actors to really explain what the experiment was about. So they were really, really prepared when they came to do my study.
00:27:00:17 - 00:27:17:18
Dwaynica Greaves
And I think the whole experience, as they said, was really good and they really enjoyed the study. But we took that time advised by my supervisor. I'd say, you know, you need to break it down to them and spend some time explaining what the story is about, because this could be completely brand new, just the concept of what you're doing.
00:27:17:20 - 00:27:36:01
Beverley Isibor
That is so that's so important because even when I'm referencing my own MRI experience right now, from an NHS standpoint, if you don't have an issue with your brain, you don't have any symptoms, you cannot get an MRI scan. And I actually want to know what's happening with my brain.
00:27:36:03 - 00:27:36:21
Dwaynica Greaves
Exactly.
00:27:36:21 - 00:28:01:22
Beverley Isibor
And I participated in that research based on that. So I guess, yeah. Information and how you access that information, is super important. It's so easy for us just to send out an email or for us to, you know, tell a friend to tell a friend. But there should be more creative ways that we can access certain populations.
00:28:01:22 - 00:28:18:09
Beverley Isibor
And I even thought that the MRI scan that I took was only for people at UCL. But yeah, they said that they want a wider pool of people. Then I'm like, why are you not reaching them? Because my whole family, like, was ready to pop up my mum, but my sister, she was like, can you sign me up?
00:28:18:09 - 00:28:31:11
Beverley Isibor
And she unfortunately they didn't need any more participants. But I was like, for the future, they should be more information about, you know, who else can come into the room that is not in an academic setting.
00:28:31:17 - 00:28:49:16
Dwaynica Greaves
I feel like, because as researchers, we are trying to make our lives easier as well. The university does have databases that we put we put our study promotions in. But a lot of the people that have signed up to the, the the databases are students or undergrads or people that are already.
00:28:49:17 - 00:28:51:12
Beverley Isibor
Accustomed to the pool of people.
00:28:51:12 - 00:29:08:01
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. And it's not that you can't go and recruit outside of that, because even me, I put myself on social media. Everyone else has to be honest. But it's just very slow. And also it's not guaranteed. Like we are trying to conduct these studies in a very fixed time frame because, you know, we've got to share equipment, share the space.
00:29:08:06 - 00:29:29:06
Dwaynica Greaves
I mean, you got an end to your PhD. You, you know, you can't do it forever. So because of these things, it gets to a point where you have to use who you can get. But then I think if we are using who we can get and it's fine, I think the onus is on us to now be transparent about that when we write our reports and publish our papers.
00:29:29:07 - 00:29:30:16
Beverley Isibor
Transparency is important.
00:29:30:17 - 00:29:46:00
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. And that's what I think is because sometimes you can't help it. Like literally if everyone comes in one particular ethnic group, you just going to have to, you know, work with it. But at least in your when you write up your final, your findings and stuff like that, be very explicit about it, which we are supposed to be anyway.
00:29:46:02 - 00:30:04:01
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. But say who the ethnic group is and have that in your limitations or something like that. Because the thing is, when, say, the media, when they get hold of, studies and stuff like that, they can interpret how they want. You know, if you see your study big, put on BBC news, they can communicate as well.
00:30:04:02 - 00:30:06:09
Beverley Isibor
You don't want to do it. They will do it for you. Yeah.
00:30:06:09 - 00:30:22:06
Dwaynica Greaves
And then it may sound like, oh, this affects every single person you go when you look in the study, it was like 15 undergrad students from like one racial like majority. Yeah. It's like that actually quite sensitive. Yeah.
00:30:22:08 - 00:30:43:13
Beverley Isibor
So what is the future for this research. So you were funded by the IRB centre. So that stands for Equality Research Centre at Brain Sciences. For those who are not aware, you were funded by them. And, where are you guys in that research at the moment?
00:30:43:15 - 00:31:04:15
Dwaynica Greaves
So we have collected all the data. There was an analysis of the data, but we are basically re analysing it and trying to make it make sense. Okay. Because we have a lot of factors like other than here. You know, we look at social economic status, we look at psychological and social things like financial barriers and things that get into universities and things like that.
00:31:04:17 - 00:31:20:04
Dwaynica Greaves
Medical conditions that there's a lot in the survey. So we're re analysing it, making sure that we can really find what we're looking for. And then obviously if we don't then we can move on from there. But I think that's the next step. And then once we reanalyse it, whatever we find we'll try to write a paper about it.
00:31:20:06 - 00:31:25:13
Dwaynica Greaves
Yeah. And then, you know, if you get more grants or things in the future, then you can actually build on things like that.
00:31:25:15 - 00:31:57:06
Beverley Isibor
And hopefully you can come back on this course and tell us how it went. Thank you again, Dwaynica, for joining us. I hope we hear more from you and stay tuned. If you're really interested in learning more about Dwaynica’s Research Project, and also other research studies that are happening within the Faculty of Brain Sciences, I hope you look forward to listening to the next episode where we will cover leadership with Professor Anna Cox.
00:31:57:08 - 00:32:05:07
Beverley Isibor
Thank you for joining the EDI chronicles at Brain Sciences Podcast. I'm your host, Beverley Isibor, and I hope you join us next time.
