Transcript: Climate and Care During Pakistani Floods

Climate change is leading to environmental crises and human calamity. In September this year, Pakistan was hit with extreme flooding due to rapidly melting glaciers. With 95,000 square meters of land submerged under water, and 33 million directly affected, the country is literally, and not only metaphorically ‘in deep waters’. The rescue and rehabilitation work post-floods is a mammoth task. In this podcast bring together grass roots civil society activists from the areas, most affected by the floods, to tell us about the impact of the floods and the challenges on the ground. 

Chair: Dr Sertaç Sehlikoglu and Sumrin Kalia

Guests: Quratulain Bakhteari; Balach Khan Khoso; Ali Anwar Qureshi; Habib Mazari; Mahwish Chaudry.
Producer: Meryem Zişan Köker, Hazal Aydın, Sertaç Sehlikoglu. Editor: Meryem Zişan Köker, Hazal Aydın

Transcript

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  00:00

Welcome to the second of our Takhayyul Nativeness and Emergent Issues podcast series, organised by the members of the ERC project named Takhayyul at the UCL's Institute for Global Prosperity, IGP. I am Sertaç Sehlikoğlu, the primary investigator of this five year project. The need to this podcast series emerged due to a number of reasons. Firstly, the members of this team, as many of you may already be familiar, are often native scholars who have expertise about the very geographies they have grown up in. The project is carried in 11 different countries in Eastern Europe, Middle East and South Asia, often referred to as the Global South. That being said, those very contexts are more vulnerable to global changes and crisis. As we have seen in the flood catastrophe in Pakistan, a result of the global warming, which is the topic of today's conversation. Thus the members of this team has suggested to create a platform where we can address the emergent issues as they happen with other scholars, intellectuals and activists. Today, we are under the lead of our team member Dr. Sumrin Kalia hosting, Dr. Quratul Ain Bakhteari, Balach Khan Khoso, Ali Anwar Qureshi, Habib Mazari, and Mahwish Chaudry. Without further ado, I'm turning to Dr. Sumrin Kalia. Thank you very much.

Sumrin Kalia  01:27

Thank you very much. Thank you Sertaç. And thank you for the guests for joining us. It is an important and a very timely discussion that we need to have. The floods they have already seemed to have been forgotten. In September this year, Pakistan was hit by extreme flooding and this was happening due to the rapidly melting glaciers and heavy rains. Pakistan is home to the highest number of glaciers outside of the polar regions. And after this flooding, 95.000 square metres of land was submerged in water, and 33 million people were directly affected. And as the floodwaters stands, food and health crisis are expanding, inflation is risingç. In August only inflation was 27%. Diseases are spreading such as malaria, dengue, and people who are having a huge difficulty in relief and rescue and also the rehabilitation of the people who have been affected by the flood. Infrastructure such as bridges, road networks and dams have been destroyed, which will require many resources to build. It seems that the Pakistani people are drowning and the world is watching. As the world gets back to normal after two years of COVID, we seem to be forgetting that these kinds of crisis are caused by human activity. Instead, there is an apathy towards the impending climate induced crisis, not only among policymakers but also the people. According to the Food and Agricultural Organisation, out of the 124 million people worldwide, who face a crisis level of food insecurity. 76% are affected by climate shocks and extremes. So it's important to remember that the kinds of calamities and insecurities especially of the food, are brought about by climate shocks. And this climate shocks are actually a result of human activity. More than half of the people in developing countries like Pakistan live in rural communities, and their livelihoods are dependent on agriculture, a sector which is highly vulnerable to environmental conditions and climate change. Rising temperatures increase the costs of agricultural production and threaten biodiversity. Privileged lifestyles of the people in the Global North produce 100 times more carbon footprint than the people of the poor countries. If these trends continue, they will leave 350 million people in extreme poverty by 2030. Climate change is leading to increasing global inequality. And despite these realities, the current global climate agenda is largely set by post industrialised countries of the Global North, which focuses on mitigation, reducing CO2 emissions, rather than adaptation, addressing the effects. So the funds that are addressed for climate change or climate related crisis are mainly geared towards reducing carbon emissions. But we need funds in countries which are actually now really facing the brunt of the climate change. And countries like Pakistan which have less than 1% of the contribution to global carbon emissions feed face this proportionate effects of climate change because of the geography. And these countries need support in adaptation, not mitigation, we are not producing as much we can't mitigate, we need to adapt. Yet the global policies emphasise building climate change resilience among developing countries while efforts to adapt the lifestyles and policies in the developed world seem to be missing. In today's discussion, we've brought together people who have been working on the grounds, and they come from different parts of Pakistan. And unlike big cities, these are the people who have been working day in and day night for the rescue and relief and rehabilitation of the people who have been affected by these floods. And the main aim that we have at the day with this podcast is to hear from these people, the kinds of challenges they face, the kinds of issues they're coming across in terms of the tasks and what needs to be done, who is the real culprit here, how to mitigate and how to adapt to the situation, and how to create resources or solutions. Perhaps it's important when you're talking about these big policy agendas to really hear these people who are active on the ground and actually are never really heard. So I will begin with my speakers, we can hear from them what exactly they are facing on the ground. So, maybe I can begin with Madam Quratul Ain Bakhteari.

Quratul Ain Bakhteari  06:47

Thank you so much, Sumrin and so much and all our friends here for this opportunity to share my little experience that I had in Baluchistan. We focused on Baluchistan. When I say we as the Institute for Development Studies and practices that I'm director of. We founded it in about 22 years ago, based in Baluchistan. The team and the people who helped me into this, especially Balach, I have to acknowledge. He's the one to introduce me. And I will never forget that night, about a month ago when we reached so but we're at around 1am It was just going through the water we did not know where we are going. And our trucks with loaded with relief things was just going on. Anytime I felt that we will be deep inside and will be washed away. But the people and this inspector who was there, the team, he walked in front of us and he said you just follow me and I'm walking on the road. So there's a road underneath my feet that I can feel. Your tires, you can't feel it, your tires on or on it, I'll make sure that your tires on on it. And that was brilliant. Finally we reached a strip, small strip and we came to know that our track behind has tripped off into the water that had all the food and drinks and everything. And I thought that's it. We can't do it today. So we just sat, the women and children, and started talking to them. They were peasants, landless, who work on the lands of the landowners. And these are women, children men, hundreds, I think more than 100. On the little strip that was surrounded by water when where they could just put their child poison. Wait, but the delay is the must appreciate the determination and commitment of Bellagio and his team and the people they got in. It was pitch dark from where they caught a tractor. They went back to the truck. They unloaded it, got the stuff out and got to that strip. And we started once again by three we started to distribute and by five, it was done. Slowly, as the sun rised, we found ourselves surrounded by water. We were in the middle of water about eight feet deep. And this is where the people of  Swabi bad, Jafarabad, parts of Sindh. Of course, but because I'm more focused on Balochistan, Gachi, (inaudible). Hundreds and thousands of these extremely skilled agriculture workers, they're professionals. The sad thing was these professional high quality professionals were no less than beggars on the street. And they were treated like beggars. And the land owners don't know how to grow food, they don't know. It is these people who grow, they know the season, they know the crops, they are the ones who are knowledgeable. And are these professional agriculture, skilled people were reduced to nothing more than insects, even some insects would have been better off, because they have some place to go in. I'm lost for words, how to express what I saw. And the disparity, extreme disparity, ignorance and not that field for our agriculture professionals, workers, the way they should have been supported and helped out by the rich landowners, the rich farmers with hundreds and thousands of acres of land. They had storage of food, things that were coming for the people, because they happen to be the MPs, they happen to be in the government. They happen to be in every powerful places. So everything, all the aids, the things that are coming were being given to the MPs. So it was up to whom give, whom not to give. It is still stored in their huge Godowns go downs while the real people who made their lands, you know, useful, economically viable for them were just nowhere. I realized at that time that the government of Pakistan has a policy which is a social net. It is called Social Security for laborer. I was wondering that these peasants, who work on others lands? Do they come under any labor law? I don't know. Is there any labour of protecting them? There are labor laws for all laborers in Pakistan. Are they considered as laborers? What is their status? Do they have any status? For the first time this flood, although it has destroyed so much for the first time, it has also opened a lot of questions to people like us. I am one of the ignorant ones too, who always had readymade food on the table and not knowing about the people who grow it. And for me it was, it is and still going on, an eye opener to be so close to these people. The real stuff, the real people of Pakistan. They know how to build their homes, they know how to build their home from bamboos, from mud, from whatever scraps they have. They asked no one any help. They treat themselves with the natural way, most of them. And if they can't live, this quality die without asking anybody anything. But as long as they're living and the hands and feet are working, they're providing food. They're providing food all the time, while they themselves goes hungry. They have no health coverage, they have no policy of their work, minimum wages, no social security at all. This is one thing that has really come very strong. And we are working on it. We are now collecting, we are creating profiles of peasants and their status. And we are collecting database with our fellows in our university of computer development.

Sumrin Kalia  14:29

And we kind of we've been hearing so far and you know, the challenges the material conditions at the decline they face. It's like when she's talking about the people who are facing these eight metres of flood and she's also the people who are working like Balach also. They're also jeopardising their own health well being and health by being in these kinds of situations. And it just seems like we scream, we talk and whether it's like the inspector that you mentioned about or the peasants, the farmers that you talked about the people that committed. It seems like, though, there is a section, or there's a class does not want to hear, and it's wants to silence. I really want to hear more from you.

Quratul Ain Bakhteari  15:26

Yeah, what I'm trying to establish here is also it is helpful, that we are now in 11 districts of Baluchistan, right from Utthal Bela and then in the in the Pashtun areas from Musakhel to Piashin and Quetta. It's very interesting, where there's water and where the land is fertile, which is the five districts that I've just said, and then Bela and Utthal on the other side, near Karachi border. These are very fertile lands. So they have large holdings, and they have large landlords also there. So, our University of Community Development that we have now created. We are now sensitising our young people to go into these areas work with them. And they are from that area, we have enrolled about 135 young people in these five districts who are learning the skills of data collection, the power of numbers, and they're peasants themselves also, they're children of peasants. And this is what is going on right now. At the same time, we are distributing now seats to these 135 peasants in these five districts, because now I think the food giving ratio and food or instant relief is not needed that much. But more to do with the livelihoods. So we are in second phase now, making homes in the winter soon. In winters we have to make homes very fast because they get snow in December.We are busy in making these one rooms for them while in this other five or in six, seven, eight districts where the winters are not that severe. So we are focusing on the seeds. And we are learning the seat this whole thing because urban people like myself have no idea at all the dynamics of seeds and biochemical and all those things that goes into the land. And these peasants do understand that how chemicals is destroying their lands. But the but the big landlords wants three times yields. Do whatever put more and more of fertiliser because they want more out of the lands. So we have selected peasants, who had who also have their own one acre or two acres of land of their own, where they are masters themselves, but they have to work on other fields also too. They can't survive on this land. So we are going into organic farming with them. In fact, they know it all very well. They know it that it is so important but it is expensive. The seeds are expensive. The biofertiliser is expensive. So it's a whole thing that we are jointly going into it. Each family is being profiled by the students on their social economic health conditions, children schooling, everything that is related to a decent livelihood and living. So at that at this point is this is what we are training them in. And as they are going to get seeds, they will also be working on how important it is that world should know about them. How important it is that they should be counted as humanists, as families, as children and women, they should be counted. So this is something we are engaged in at this point. And I'm so thankful again to Baloch who really was a source to take us so deep inside the situations. Another thing that is very disturbing is the health. Condition of women and children is appalling. It is just just unbearable to see that. And we have our community midwife programme, where we are trying our best to get our midwives into, into reproductive support or to the women and children. But that is very limited. A large scale programme is needed, with at least a vision of five years, five to ten years. Only then a meaningful I will say, resistance to future calamities we can ensure. Otherwise it will just be, it's happening, we are rushing in crisis. As soon as there's a breathing space and things die down, we are back to our normal routine. And every two years we are crashing again. So there's no way to address this human crisis. It's a huge human crisis in Pakistan, especially Balochistan. It was hit first by the floods by the way, in Mid-August. The rest of the Pakistan came to know it when Sindh and Balitistan flooded. Only then they woke up. Nobody was talking about Baluchsitan. It was 15th or 16th of August, when the first crash came. And suddenly, it was all communication was broken. But there was no news at all. So you can understand the relationship of this province, the development of the country. The people, survival, the rights, whatever you can say.

Sumrin Kalia  21:42

Thank you. Thank you very much, ma'am. I'm going to have questions from you because there are some things that we need to know about the role of the local government over there, and all the other civil society. But yes, we will come to this discussion, especially again, we will raise points about the policy, how these policies need to be more long term and you know, based on really certain targeted populations, such as women and children on how has it evolved over time. But maybe we can now move to Ali from Jamshoro. And he's working in the Sindh area. And let us hear about the situation in Sindh and how it is now and what kind of challenges are you facing and what is the situation of specially the women and children in those areas?

Ali Anwar  22:34

Hello, my name is Ali Anwar as Sumrin told you. And I belong to district Dadu basically. Currently I'm residing in District Jamshoro, which was basically a few years back, the Jamshoro district was also in the district Dadu. But in 2017, they changed the localities and more district Dadu was the biggest district in Sindh but then they change it. So right now district Dadu, basically its population is 2 million. And according to the Pakistan Disaster Management reports, in district Dadu more than 800,000 people were disturbed in this flood. And you can well imagine what is the percentage of the flood affected people 800,000 out of 2 million, you can well imagine is more than 40% I think. So, when I started this disaster relief work in 2005 with a few of my friends. I just did my graduation from SZABIST. There was an earthquake in 2015 in Muzaffarabad, Balakot and upper area of Northern areas. And that was the point when we started, we thought, all friends were sitting in front of the TV and we started crying and we said this is a very bad situation in that area, and we should do something like as an individual, as friends. And in the end, we went there, we were there for 10 days, a group of friends. And we did help there and then again, we slept and in 2010 we again in the flood, we got activated again and elhamdulillah from the panel, we made this matrix in the welfare trust by ourself, group of five to six people, friends. And in 2010 we were helping with the flood effects but there is a big difference in 2010 flood, 2011 flood and 2017 flood. And now this 2022 flood is the worst flood I have seen my life. My parents my forefathers, my grandfather must have not seen this 2022 flood because in 2010 I literally saw. I was in the different areas. We used to work, like go in different areas and help and reach out those people who are not being reached by other people. Like many NGOs, many relief teams couldn't reach there. We used to take our vehicles and go on those areas where there is nobody else that already reached for help. So in 2022, this flood has almost ruined all over the Sindh by the rain and then the flood. Amazingly, I will tell you one more thing that this global warming thing, which is the main topic of our discussion, and this global warming thing has affected all over the world in a way that in August, early August, because I'm an agriculturer also, I have 200 acres of land. And I saw it that in August, first week, there was a drought situation in our lands. I didn't have any water. I started our tube wells with the diesel engines and I spent plenty of money on it to you know, save my lands at that time. And after 22nd of August, I got the news. We have a Manchar Lake in district Dadu. District Jamshoro rather, it is between district Dadu and district Jamshoro. This Manchar Lake is the world's biggest natural lake, which is scattered on 500 square kilometres in the area. And it's a natural lake and whenever the flood comes, it is scattered so much that whatever villages and cities and areas are around the Manchar Lake gets flooded every time. This is the mistake by the government in 2010 flood. They raised the level of Manchar Lake for I think five to six feet, which was very dangerous at that time, because my father is a irrigation chief and he has retired in 2010. He was a chief in irrigation and power department. So he was very much into the this water management and all that stuff. So he told me that what they are doing right now, they are raising the bands of four to five feet. And next, if something happens, if there is rain or there is a flood situation, this step five, it will rain all the areas which were never flooded before. So to tell you the facts, what I have been doing in since 2000 August 2022. And on 22nd of August, I started my relief work from the areas around and I didn't only saw district Dadu but I also went to district Metro cars and I also went to district Badin and started my work from there. Amazingly in 2010, and it's down to 2022. Our district Dadu is the last area which get flooded and the water is stuck in the areas. It is very difficult to still today. Yesterday I was there for food supply in some area. And I saw that still there are lands which are underwater. And the biggest problem biggest issue they are going to face, those people is that they will not be able to aggregate agriculture, their lands, and they will not be able to get wheat from them. Those lands are still under water for five feet, six feet underwater and that water is not going out. So the government should seriously think over it. Okay, how to get rid of this water so that these people can grow their lands so that they don't get problem and you know. The biggest issue is, you know, food. If you don't get food, there's a big problem. So I've been working in different areas. The difficulty is, what I'll be telling you about it is that in District Dadu there is a city which is called Khairpur Nathan Shah. It's a city of 265,000 population, sorry 362,000 population. This Khairpur Nathan Shah city was flooded in 2010 completely. City is a big city, and there's so many houses built there. And in 2022 this city's again flooded. Complete area is flooded. So, the point is that now people have started thinking that we should move somewhere else because in every five years, ten years we are getting flooded, why not move somewhere else? Which is not the right way I used to speak to them and tell them, you know, don't do that. The government should plan how to get rid of these problems and future. So, the alarming situation is in August I was facing drought and in September I was flooded. I had a lot of water in my lands. So, the point is this way, the situations are not going to get right and in future, because nowadays, I used to hear from many people that the flood will be there until 2028 every year. So this is a very alarming situation for the people around and for us also. Basically, I went there, met people, I saw their insecurity. I saw that they are very much hurt. They lost their houses. Every person knows, okay, a person make their house in years, like poor people in our area. Whether it is a mud made houses, with the bamboos and all that stuff, but that house is their life. Right now, I'm moved to move to the rehabilitation programme. So I want to give them some shelter. Still, I've seen houses, I seen villages which were vanished from the land. I used to go on the boats, to visit different areas to reach out them and to give them some relief, ration bags, whatever where we were getting from our donors. So when I visited those houses, those villages 100 person mud houses were demolished. Rather I couldn't see them on the land and 10 to 20% were left which were you know made by the bricks and the cemetery houses. So, this was the situation in 2022 floods. So I would like to tell everybody that I'm very thankful to you guys, that you have gathered all the people from different areas. Ms. Quaratul Ain was very much right there. Firstly, initially Balochistan was flooded, and in the end, this flood ended in Sindh. So, because Sindh is the only way out for the flood water to go into the sea. So, still we are facing the same essentially and in the worst situation. People have lost their lands, people have lost their houses, people are very much facing medical problems. Even the children, even the women, I have been trying to get the help of materials in welfare trust. I think almost more than 15,000 OPDs I have done in different areas in different taluqas in different villages. We also use boats to go there, we took our doctors, team, lady doctors team on the board to go to those villages, which are still surrounded by the water and nobody's reaching them out. So we did our medical camps there. And the biggest problems, which I have been telling you is that I cannot tell you how many years it will take these poor people to get back to the normal life. I'm very much scared that for the coming 10 years, they will not be the same that they were before the flood. And of course, I would like to tell you, which is very difficult for me to express my feeling about the government about the how they are dealing with the floods, how they are, you know, planning for the further maybe next year the flood might hit? Again, Pakistan, what are they doing, I'm very much depressed. I'm very much sorry that the government is not planning accordingly, because they should plan accordingly for the next year floods or next year situations and disasters, but they are not doing it. And because the point is if they are not able to get water drained out in the sea up till now in those areas, since two months they are underwater. So what do you think they are doing their work on? Thank you very much. Thank you, Ali Anwar, that was very helpful.

Sumrin Kalia  35:27

But maybe I can move to the Balach now. Balach is 12 years of experience of working with developing corporate and public sectors. And he has been working as the coach, mentor, team builder. And he works as also a soft skills trainer. And he has been participating and engaging in disaster management work since 2010, floods and then 2012 floods. And it's he's been the challenging task has been to raise funds to help the families in those districts that we often not even hear about. I hope a Balach can contribute and tell us the challenges that he faced and what kind of situation that there is in the areas still. How it was at the time when the floods hit. And let us hear from him about his overall experience of working in the disaster management since 2010 floods and then 2012. And now the current crisis that we're facing, over to you Balach.

Balach Khan Khoso  36:35

Thank you very much, Dr. Sumrin. I hope you all are doing great. And it is such an amazing moment for me to be a part of this podcast. Let me tell you about myself. I did my graduation and I worked with different organisations, I worked with public sector, private sector. Currently, I'm working with the public sector university as a deputy director. Moreover, I worked in 2010 flood and 2012 and during this flood, which actually came in August, and it was so scary. I would like to tell you that how all this started. It was impossible for us to hear 136 hours rain, continuous rain in rural areas. These rice fields filled with water, water canals filled with water and on the top of that when you see 136 hours raining, so it's devastating. People have lost their lives, people have lost their houses, they were they were looking for a dry land, just to keep themselves and their families safe and secure. It was unbearable for us, we could not sleep at nights looking the situation of these people and hearing about them. And when you put your feet in shoes of those people who are actually suffering from such disasters, then you get to know, then you empathise. Then you understand the pain and agony that they're going through. So, yes, with the help of many kind people like you have come forward to help us, they not only sent funds, they also came all the way from Karachi in different parts of the of the country to help the flood victims. I am very much blessed and I feel very happy about taking a step during such crucial time and putting my myself therefore all the flood victims. So we just made WhatsApp groups, we've put all our energy on the internet to ask people, to beg people for the flood victims so that at least people should not die out of hunger and thirst. Secondly, they do not die out of medical situations or due to the rainfall that is continuously being happened happening. I remember, it was 22nd of August when we started our work. The operations were solely on a personal basis and then all these people around the world, you can say from US, Canada, everywhere people came and they helped us. Around 2.5 million rupees I received in 20 days. Within no time, without losing any minute, I made sure I was not available in the flood affected area, there is so much more in other areas, because I come from Sohbatpur so they say you charity begins from home. So we started our work in so but we're all the ways were blocked. The flood water took away all the bridges, all the canals on the rail, all the railway systems. You cannot imagine I've met many people and ask them that have you seen such a rain? And I've not even found a single person who told me that they faced such a long rain for more than 136 hours. So the railroad and the roads that were constructed by the Britishers have been washed away, you cannot imagine because they made such great efforts engineering, that it was impossible for any disaster to take them off. But they were all washed away even the railways. So without losing any time I was present in Quetta when I started the fundraising. And I made sure that I should find volunteers in Sohbatpur and adjoining areas, so that they can reach the people who do not have food to eat, or when it was raining, they did not have anything on their head, roof or something so that they can save themselves from the rain water that is coming all the way for long hours. So we made sure that we find plastic sheets, you know, this, the little plastic sheets that we had were like four by four, four metres, width and length. And we made sure that we gather as much as we can, and we can send them to these families where there are kids and old people and, you know, pregnant woman, so that at least they can get out of that disaster at that moment, because we were sure that after a week or 10 days, as soon the ways are opened, people would rush to the area and they would go and they would help the flood victims though, the district that specifically I'm working in my own district, it consists of 240,000 people and adjoining districts there's this Jaffrabad, Sohbatpur, Nasirabad, but it is the greenbelt of Balochistan, actually. There's agricultural land, there's rice, there's crop in there, and 99% of the people are actually relying on the agricultural land, which was actually washed away. So they were breached them, and I'm sure that the satisfaction that I carry with myself and my friends, is that we actually made a little effort that actually changed the lives of people, or actually, people did not suffer a lot, because we were there to help them. So this is it, about the floods. I'm sure that the problem that floods and such disasters, cause it would be there for with their lives till they're alive. You know, there are kids, they're elderly people. And they're getting rash, and they're getting tense. We're going in the rehabilitation phase in a few weeks. But the problem that I see is that we are not working on mental health at all. We make sure that we find tents, we find food, we find houses for them, we make sure that they resettle can rehabilitate themselves. But the most important part is the mental health that we do not focus on there, like thousands of people who have suffered a trauma. And it's so hard for someone to bring them out of the trauma. So I've been requesting people I've been asking people to kindly help me, and make me understand that how we can now we can help the people who are actually going through mental health issues after this disaster.

Sumrin Kalia  43:48

Yeah, it's like a vicious cycle. It starts it's something that starts and it just kind of continues and goes on. And I have got to have a lot of questions, especially later on from Quratul Ain because there are certain issues related to the ground management and governance. But I have a question for ma'am Quratul Ain. Here I recently wrote a piece on IGPs website about this whole flood. And also recently in my talk today, I kind of said that it's not the global nodes has certain responsibilities, the developed countries have their responsibilities and their fair share of the climate change. But I have received some criticism from the people in the Global North, both in the UK and also in Germany. And they claim that it is that we are not in the right place to ask this kind of question because the real challenge up here comes from the governance of Pakistani government. And whereas I mean, there is no denying that Pakistani state has failed utterly, in this kind of rehabilitation or even planning, providing support, but does that exonerate the Global North countries? What do you think?

Quratul Ain Bakhteari  45:14

Yeah, good question and a question which needs more deeper deliberations. But whatever it is, Pakistani governance is under question very seriously. But that does not mean the North can be set free. The portion of the responsibility of North and South has to be realised and must be taken and accepted according to the proportion that they are responsible for. It should not become a game of shifting from one to the other. It should be a more mature way of for both sides, matured way of looking at it, analysing it, because it is a human characteristic. It should not be taken into account like North and South, or religious, it is human. And this is a time to rise above all, everything, who's responsible, how much one is responsible, one should accept it very gracefully and graciously, because eventually the whole world is going to be affected, not only in this North and South thing, it's not going to be this way in the future. So I think the message should be for both North and South is that we have to rise into our intellectual into our human commitment level and look at things from that perspective. That's number one. But being a Pakistani of course, I am responsible first for my own house, my own self, my own reality. Yes, there's a prime responsibility before pointing fingers anywhere else. Yes, Pakistani governance has failed terribly. And mostly, I would say in the area of agriculture on lands,  I realise it has no policy. It is just a rich and powerful thing. That's what it is. As if there are no humans on the land. We only talk about the crops always. We always talked about how much we have grown land and how much we have imported and how much wheat is there and what is there, but nobody ever talked about the people who worked on it. This is the first time I am looking at it, we are looking at the people on the land. At least when we write, the Sindh has got the brunt of the water because the border of Baluchistan is filled up because Sindh is filled up. This is where the water was supposed to go. Now why Sindh has filled up? Sindh has the best agriculture drainage system created by the Britishers. Our drainage system which is choked and Sindh has the largest budget of billions of rupees for agriculture maintenance, for maintenance of this drainages which are choked and blocked. Nobody asked questions because everybody's, everybody's friends. Everybody is with everybody. They don't want to say bad things about their next door influential person. Why there is no question about it? Why this drainage system with the largest number of employees in Sindh government and irrigation? You should really go into this deeper net. After the recruitment, after the teachers, after the education system or maybe the police, the largest recruitment, employment is irrigation department of Sindh. One of the largest budget that goes for the cleaning of the canals and the rivers. The largest budget that goes in the drainage system, irrigation drainage system, the land they have to be trained. Where does all this go? We are all the time, people like me or in this group. We are all the time put in the front as a firefighter climate is go run and fix it. But we never turned back who's throwing the babies in the river. We have more time to turn around and look who's doing it, who's really responsible. So much money, so much benefits and cards and and you should see, you should come and see someday. Our assemblies, their guesthouses, their protocols, you should see. And on the other end, these humans on the streets which are reduced to no less than insects and creatures. It is high time now. Pakistan is exposed in the world. The rich and powerful, have lots of responsibilities. They have made very good time out of Pakistan and Pakistani people and the ordinary people and the poor people. For more than 70 years these people have tilled the lands with no shoes in their children's feet. The schools dumped. Their schools where everybody closes their eyes that why are these schools not functioning? Why the teachers are of so poor quality, especially in Sindh and Balochistan. Why? Everybody knows this. But we all protect each other because we belong to the same same level of our friends and families. I think my heart beats to see what I saw.

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  51:45

I actually also would like to add a couple of things about Sumrin's contribution and her note and how Institute for Global Prosperity sees these kind of seemingly local incidents and catastrophes that are actually embedded into the very state of globality as a state. Kind of like when we look at the local input, just local, that's a completely, that signifies complete ignorance about the global dynamics of their occurrence.

Quratul Ain Bakhteari  52:19

The worst thing was that Sertaç and Sumrin, that people that are responsible, the political and the governance, you know what they were saying? Its God’s wrath on you. You people have sinned. And this is this is due to God, coming from God. You people have sinned. I mean the poor, all poor people have sinned, and all rich and powerful have never seen sinned in Pakistan. This was the statements that was set by the very people who are responsible for this. Everywhere it is put on the gods.

Sumrin Kalia  53:02

Yeah, we've been talking so far about Balochistan and Sindh province. So I think it's now time to include Punjab into the debate. Habib Mazari and Mahwish are coming from Punjab. They're both from the Rajhan in Mazari district and Punjab. And Habib is a sportsman by profession and he has been working in flood relief since September. And he has provided food around 6000 households and has helped bills 50 to 60 houses in the flood affected areas. And Marvish is joining Habib, and she is the founder of the Al Quran Institute where they're sitting right now. And she has an experience of eight years in welfare projects. And she actually is working from with al Huda International which is a women's religious organisation and it's an Islamic reform and welfare organisation. So let's hear from Marvish and Habib. Basically, I think we need to continue the same kind of conversation, asking, trying to know the level of destruction that you have seen so far, and the kind of difficulties that people are facing on the ground. And what is the real challenge that you see? We can say Punjab is the richest and the biggest province? Maybe it's just certain extent you can tell us if it's different there, or if it's really the same.

Mahwish Chaudary  54:35

Thank you very much. Selamunaleykum everyone. Mashallah, mashallah I'm very much surprised to see that everybody's working very hard and desperately. Mashallah. Mashallah. Our sister Quratul Ain and Balach and brother Ali Anwar, all are working very good. Well, we have started our work and we thought okay, we should do some social welfare tasks for the flood areas. But we were praying to Allah subhaneu teala for a person who can guide us without any greed and we can trust on him. Then elhamdulillah, Mr. Habib Mazari he was there and he's a friend of our brother. So he said you should move with him and he will visit all the areas. I request him to took us to the areas where nobody went. And he said, okay, once you will come in, shall I'll take you, he has planned everything for us. We took our container, and we went over there. Believe me, trust me, I cannot explain that disaster in words. Pictures cannot explain the disaster. He used to say a sentence. They went back 50 years back, and honestly, they went back 50 years back, because they are not only homeless, they are not only helpless, they are not only clothless, they are not only foodless. Now, I think they are selfless even because they are wondering someone who came there and who helped them out. And according to me, there are three phases of this flood all the events, first phase was that case, people need rescuing for their lives. In the second phase, they want food and tents, these type of things. And now the third phase. In two phases, NGOs went there, and a few government employees went there. People individually went there and help them but now Winter came and they need shelters. Nobody's visiting, nobody is visiting. And in Pakistan. I will say okay, government is doing 0% work. I think everybody will agree with me. So I don't know what to do. But we are just putting our smallest effort to helping them out and elhamdulillah hamdulillah Allah subhanh teala bless, like, sister Quaratul Ain said, Balach was there. In the same manner as Mr. brother Habib was there to guide us to help us out. And when we went to Rojhan and we visit Rojhan and we asked the people for their home shelter, and we're just thinking we will build 100 homes, but honestly thousands of people were there, thousands of families are there. They are homeless. Then we have decided another plan and we have set them okay if we will go to the complete home its cost would be almost three lakh 50,000 more than this. Then we decided we will give them like a roof with garder that cost also like more than two lakh. Then we thought okay, you people should build muddy walls and we will give you a roof with the garder and with the bamboos and inshallah it would be fulfilled the need right now at least. So elamdulillah elHamdulillah, we have started work in those areas where still nobody went over there. And individually from the government, from the army, from the NGOs, nobody went there, and he took us there. The ways are very dangerous. He told us it would be your own responsibility. We said it's okay but took us over there elhamdulillah elHamdulillah we are working and I would say he should discuss something. He introduce himself and if there would be some problem to convene something inshallah I'll try to convey. Yes, please.

Habib Mazari  58:36

Yes, Assalamualeikum, my name is Habib Mazari. I'm from Baloch family. My biggest problem is my language, you must understand all of you, people, I'm trying my hardest to explain you. I'm doing this since first day of August, I went there, I saw people homeless. I started my work with 30 to 40 ration bags. Then I came back to Multan and I put this on social media, by friends from Bahawalpur Al-Khair foundation. He asked me to go again and said I'll give you 400 Russian bags, then he helped me for this. I came back go there.

Sumrin Kalia  59:19

I mean, he's saying that 85% of the people that he got money from didn't know him. So basically, and you also didn't know him.

Mahwish Chaudary  59:29

I came from Multan.

Sumrin Kalia  59:32

And this is a specific area where it's harder for women to reach. To manage, to as a woman to do this kind of task in like an area where it's particularly more conservative for women.

Mahwish Chaudary  59:48

Actually, really, it was a big responsibility on his shoulder and Alhamdulillah he fulfilled that. He took care of our security because we were not, I was not only woman over there. My all colleagues were there. Almost eight to ten women were there and twelve to fifteen male were there with us voluntarily. They were working with us. Alhamdulillah, but it was very difficult to reach out to those people. And it was very difficult to tell them and to give them this understanding. We are here to help you out and don't like do something like this, which will be harsh, and which will destroy the material we took for you. It was a very good experience. And because that's why I'm saying that he's blessing for us. Alhamdulillah Alhamdulillah he's with us and he took us over there. Sister, if you don't mind, I want to suggest something because you listen all the things from my three companions like Mr. Ali Anwat, from Sister Quaratul Ain and from brother Balach. All areas are affected and the same almost circumstances are there. And I just want now if we people are working, like we are working, we will work more why not we should work together, why not? We should share with each other, work with each other. And we will work like a team, because government is not responding at the moment, if I  may say. NGOs are also not responding at the moment, our political and financial circumstances in Pakistan, they are very low. I think sister Quaratul Ain will agree with this. And we have to do something by our own self. So we should plan something to go to all the people. Thousands of families are there, all the people should get shelter, at least? One more thing, he make our work easier. He bought a machine, block machine by himself, he bought a tractor. He bought the vehicles and other machineries for the construction of the houses. So alhamdulillah he's very helping hand and in Rujhan lots of people are. And he is not a political person, he is just a common person over there. So I must appreciate him that he's working all the things for Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala. And for the people over there, without any greed or without any interest.

Sumrin Kalia  1:02:21

That's really impressive. It seems like we hear different kinds of stories, people who are completely apathetic, selfish and holding money and not caring about the people on the ground. And then on the other hand, this is also a Pakistan that people are trying their hard and trying to contribute in the limited capacity they have you think that what can be done moving forward?I mean, the people are trying on the ground coming together, helping ourselves making teams, connecting across provinces. But is that the way forward? What would you I'm asking all of you. Any of you can come in.

Mahwish Chaudary  1:03:04

I'm as telling the same thing. I'm asking for the same thing from all of my fellow here, we should make a team and we should plan and we should then move forward in our areas. Like we have decided to help hundred homes. But now we have decided three hundred homes Alhamdulillah work has been started. Almost twenty five plus houses had been done. Alhamdulillah one mosque has been done. And by doing this, Mr. Mazari has said to us, this is a very good time to join the people together because somebody they are used to sitting with their families like three, four or eight homes are separate. And they said, this is our area and this is our area, but now they all came together. And on the one land, we combine them we'll collect them we said, make houses over here, and you will worship and will you will live here together. So it is a very good chance for us to combine them all together.

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  1:04:02

Before we move on. I want to also make a note on I think the notion of globality the very era we are living in. And that's partly prompted by the questions Sumrin mentioned, that she has received in the aftermath of the blog piece she has written for the institute about the floods and the catastrophe in Pakistan and its global element. So it's interesting that even for a small piece that you have authored within an institute, and institute that's called Institute for Global Prosperity, that was founded specifically due to an understanding that there's no local issue in the world right now. Every seemingly local issue, be it an epidemic in Congo, be it famine in Yemen, they exist due to global dynamics. We are living in a different era now. And therefore, the analysis should be global, like should be taking out each one of those global dynamics into consideration. But also because the IGP is a very, very solution oriented Institute, the policies and the actions should have those global elements at the centre of them. But then when you are receiving questions that are reducing as if it's just North and South, as if trying to kind of put the load of the or the burden of the solution into one part of the world. It suggests that the way we imagine globality is still very limited. We don't have a full understanding of what it means to live in a global world. We do understand when when we ourselves are suffering, or we are witnessing it, when we are seeing these multiple, multiple dimensions. But there's this issue of I think, increasing the conversation. And, one of the things I think we are kind of trying to enable in this conversation is to battle with or undo the two obstacles, which is, of course, being able to hear from the experts on the field. And also the second issue would be the issue of translation, which is, you know, as I witnessed right now, so I kind of wanted to highlight these points quite quickly before we move on to the Q&A, because I think it's going to a very exciting and right and touching direction. So I'm going to shut up right now. So built on Marvish's point, I think Balach was going to respond, and maybe Quaratul is going to continue as well.

Sumrin Kalia  1:06:52

Well, basically, my question was that so far, you've been talking about the things people are doing on ground. But do you think this is the only way forward? What should be the ideal solution, the most effective way to move forward keeping in mind that this is not just a problem of people who are either living in Dadu or this district of Balochistan? Or that, but it's a global problem. What kind of global solutions would you recommend?

Balach Khan Khoso  1:07:19

There are global problems, and there are global solutions as well. But what I think that every diverse area has their own issues that I personally understand, right? There may be some universal challenges that you and me and anybody in Africa or in the Sahara may be facing, something that we all are facing the same, but there are some, you know, unique kind of challenges that we get to see in every other area. When it comes to disasters and the things that I've seen almost in two decades, in 2010, 2012, and again, we are facing the same thing. I discussed this on a television show where I was invited and I told them that why would we go back and discuss the same again and again after one decade? Why do not come up with a foolproof solution to the problems that we're facing every now and then. Why aren't we making progress? The problem is that we are here especially in Pakistan, if I tell you or maybe some somewhere globally also people have reactive approach towards things. We do not have a proactive thought process or planning or strategies to come up with. So that we can we can at least minimise the damage that a disaster or some kind of epidemic is making towards us, right? So the proactive approach and strategies should be there like-minded people who actually want to do something for the world, and who want people not to suffer in the future. So this should sit together and derive a uniform policy to come up with in different areas. There may be a solution to the all the problems, but every different area must have their own challenges. So we should rather answer the solutions in their own perspective in their own diverse way. So I really think that the world should at least bring a stop to the reactive approach that we give once we face a problem, and then we react on it. I think when we are talking about the floods that happened in Pakistan, because that's the topic that we are discussing right here on this podcast. So I think the flood was there due to climate changes and a lot of rainfall, but there was a lot of mismanagement, also. Many people have suffered due to mismanagement. If you get to know why a weather updates that there's this rainfall going to take place, then why don't you? Why can't we evacuate? Or why can we find a way that people should at least get little damage? The problem is that we are not thinking about that once something happens, you, me people like us, we go in the field, we help them, try our best to help people. But again, that's not the solution. The solution is to at least do not mismanage such natural disasters, and at least, there should be an escape of how we should minimise the damage towards it.

Sumrin Kalia  1:10:49

Thank you. Yeah, it's more like proactive approaches, like missing in many ways. And, you're right, we don't, we need to have a more umbrella shaped kind of a bigger policies framework, but then it has to be also sometimes structured to local needs, and can be more targeted, and also sometimes even temporary. I’d like to hear a little bit from ma’am Quaratul Ain. I mean, keeping in mind now, as Sertaç says that we are based in Institute of Global Prosperity. And as someone who has been working on the ground, since so many years in kind of development, health and welfare work, what do you think you should be the responsibility of the global governance institutions such as the United Nations UNHCR, World Bank, IMF, all these kinds of institutions, the big global governance, infrastructure that is there in place, and how has it somehow responded so far, in your opinion, to the current crisis that is Pakistan is facing?

Quratul Ain Bakhteari  1:11:58

Thank you so much. I think Balach Han from our friends from Punjab has really opened the subject in a very meaningful way. Going back to this international institutions, World Bank, UN. You see, these institutions work with the government, with national governments, the governance of the country. They don't work with people like us, or you or Balach or people like us. So, when they work with the government, I have worked with them, I have a lot of experience of working at that level, then they work with the one power structure works with another power structure. First thing I have observed, I am really so much in pain after what I've seen that I just can't put my words in a sweet way of talking. When these both structures get together to work, whether in Pakistan or anywhere, their first priority is to show the result. The result that they think should be the result, not what the people want, not what the issue is on the ground. And then whole strategy and everything, the way they select the people to work on it, the way they select the consultants, the way they select. More and more people like us, Balach will know better, who have been in it from all perspective ever seen in a combined way, from intellectual from activism, from community work, from educating the government, from advising the relevant departments, from advising the internationals, the philanthropic, local, philanthropic, Pakistani, Karachi, international, outside the country, individuals. There's a huge group now in Pakistan, I can say, who are in the middle of all this and who are making a difference. A difference, I would not say a tangible difference or a long lasting difference, but in the difference of relief. I will just say we are good in relief. But what to do after the relief, we don't go beyond that because then it is not left in our domain. It is taken away at a different level where people like us are not there. Where shortcuts takes place, where, again, I would say in Pakistan. You might think that I'm being a bit too rough, but believe me in Pakistan, everything moves on friends whom you know. Who's sitting where? Who has what power, whether they know what their job or not?

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  1:15:05

Thank you.

Sumrin Kalia  1:15:06

Well, I mean, most of it has been said, but as kind of a wrap up, I would still want to say that what we see is like catastrophic moment that is based in Pakistan. We also see solidarity that these people are bringing together. But on the other hand, we see the ignorance as well. And I think, for us, it is important to learn from the people that we've heard from today, how to cope with challenges and how to work together. And also important to point at ma'am Quaratul Ain's point, that it's not about only disaster management. It's all about also about proactive policymaking, which should include local people, in countries like Pakistan and national institutions are failing utterly. The global institutions need to reach out to the local people when they are trying to work and if they want to contribute. And this is what we tried to do through this podcast as well. And I hope it has achieved this work was.

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  1:16:15

Thank you. And I think Ali had one last remark to add to the conversation.

Ali Anwar  1:16:20

Yeah, I just wanted to add one more thing. Like Balach was telling us it is because of the mismanagement, but you must have realised that this is a problem not for Pakistan, but it's a global problem. There are so many floods in the US. My father was there in Detroit one year back and there was a flood in Detroit. He was safe, at last his car was totally blown in the water. So these floods are not only the problem for Pakistan, this is this is a global problem. This climate change is affecting globally. And these floods are not in Pakistan and US and in many other countries also. So if you talk about mismanagement, yes, we have mismanagement, we have problem with the government's governance. But what do you think when US Detroit was flooded? What do you think when there are 5000 vehicles were drowned? Was there a mismanagement? No, they are very much managed. But the problem is the climate change and the global warming. So the point, like Sumrin told us, she faced criticism from different people, that why are you criticising us in your website? If you read about the climate change in the global warming thing, which is the main reason, there are floods and there are droughts, there are earthquakes, there are many other disasters in different countries in the world, not just in Pakistan, but in Pakistan, yes, it is because of the mismanagement and bad governance. One more point I wanted to add is there's one river which is called Indus River. All the rivers in Pakistan are merged in one river that is Indus River, which is drained out to the sea. So the mismanagement is this. They have made three bridges on the Indus River, on the Indus River. Before, I think 30-40 years back, there was only one bridge in Dadu, from Dadu which was connecting the Western part of the river and the Eastern part of the river. There was one bridge. And after these 10 years, after the 2010 flood, and in 2010 flood, let me correct you, there was 10 million cusec water in the river. In this flood 2022 in the river, the water didn't exceed 650,000 cusec. So it means in 2010, when there was 10,000 a million cusec water they flooded us and in 2022, when there are 650,000 cusec water and it is again flooding us. What is the reason behind? It is the blockage. It is the blockage by making these bridges on the rivers and also the agriculturist the landlords who are making their own farm houses banglos in the river. And they're making their own lands and disturbing the river belt. So that is the main point. And again, if you are talking about global then the main point is what we are doing. I was studying about after Dr. Sumrin told me that you are doing a podcast, then I started reading about the climate change what is the reason behind climate change? I was surprised to know cattle farming is one of the reason behind the climate change, because cattle farming methane gas has been emitted from the, and it is also going to the green gas around the global globe and it is affecting that also. And other thing is, you know, the industries and the waste water, the gases emitted from the industries. And these are also the transport system. So, when I was reading about it, the only solutions I saw on the internet were to minimise the cattle farming number one, which is so much here in Pakistan. Even in Punjab, the main source of income is agriculture and cattle farming, in Punjab also and Sindh also. And secondly, due to use of electricity, because in Thar there is a coal, which is used for producing electricity. And if you are burning the coal, then again the there is a gas emission, and which is not going to solve the problem rather increase the problems with global warming. So, I think you're very right Sumrin. You shouldn't worry about it, about the criticism. You should be again, telling them that there is a reason of the gas emitted from the industries, from the airlines, from the cars from the different reasons. And I think that should be stopped, that is affecting all over the world. And the countries like us and we cannot get it. If it there's there's a flood in Detroit, in US in any other city, New York and any any other city that can handle it, they can manage it. We can't, we are not in a situation to manage these things. Our country is very in a very difficult situation and also many other reasons, politically. And one more thing I want to add. Balach will second me. In Sindh, I've seen government is trying to help people, but the political distribution of relief is the main thing which is hindrance to reach out to people who are in need. Because if you're giving something, a serif work, a ration bag or something, I think it is not the right way to reach out to people who are poor. So these are few things I wanted to add.

Sumrin Kalia  1:22:24

Thank you. Thank you, everyone, and especially ma'am Quaratul Ain, Balach, who joined us out of so much difficulty, despite all the challenges. Thank you, Ali, and thank you, Habib, Marvish. I'm very grateful to you for making the time and letting us know about what you've been doing and how difficult it has been.

Sertaç Sehlikoglu  1:22:49

Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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